Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

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  • #81
While the outcome is different, this case reminds me a bit of the lung transplant child a few months back in Pittsburgh. ALL information released was filtered through the mother.
The hospital's hands were tied as far as being able to explain their side of it.

I have dealt with several brain death determinations in children in the past few months at work. It is tragic, awful, emotionally wrenching for ALL involved.

But brain death determinations are very specific and the guidelines for determining them are strict. (In other words, it's not easy to declare someone brain dead). There is never just one determination- it must be repeated hours later by another physician. The results must be exactly the same to both MDs. Then and only then can a determination be made.
 
  • #82
  • #83
Judge orders hospital to keep girl on support

http://centurylink.net/news/read/ca...ap-california_girl_had_fears_before_tonsil-ap

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) — A judge on Friday ordered a California hospital to keep a girl declared brain dead on life support following what was supposed to be a routine tonsillectomy.

The ruling by Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo came as both sides in the case agreed to get together and chose a neurologist to further examine 13-year-old Jahi McMath and determine her condition. The judge scheduled a hearing Monday to appoint a physician......more.......
 
  • #84
This is such a sad situation. How heartbreaking for this family.
 
  • #85
Very interesting and helpful info about brain death : http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-death3.htm

10 pages of very easy to read, easily organized and very pertinent information.

(From page 5) Confirming Brain Death

Many physicians request additional, confirmatory tests before pronouncing brain death. The two most common are the electroencephalogram (EEG) and the cerebral blood flow (CBF) study.

The EEG measures brain voltage in microvolts. It is so sensitive that the static electricity in a person's clothes will give a squiggle on the EEG (a false positive). All positive responses suggest brain function. The patient in the deepest coma will show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not.

The cerebral blood flow (CBF) study study involves the injection of a mild radioactive isotope into the blood stream. By placing a radioactivity counter over the head, one can measure the amount of blood flow into the brain. (See How Nuclear Medicine Works.) The cerebral blood flow study takes 20 to 30 minutes to perform. If there is no blood flow to the brain as demonstrated by this study, the brain is dead. A negative cerebral flow study is indisputable evidence of a dead brain.

Normal cerebral blood flow study showing cranial space filled with blood

Cerebral blood flow study showing no blood entering the brain

Another confirmatory test is chemical: The patient can be given 1 mg of atropine IV. In the patient with an intact brain, atropine will dramatically increase the patient's heart rate. In a brain-dead patient, atropine will not influence heart rate.

Now you have some idea of the scope of the examination that takes place before a patient is pronounced "brain dead." Patients are considered either alive or dead. One cannot be "almost" brain dead or "essentially" brain dead. Brain death, like pregnancy, is either "yes" or "no." Likewise, brain death is a very conservative diagnosis. It is not made lightly, but only when there is no doubt in the findings. "
 
  • #86
  • #87
If they want a 2nd opinion on brain dead status that's fine. But having a judge intervene in such a personal issue is a problem for me. A huge one. IF this happened to me, and someone intervened, well...I don't even have the WORDS!
This is why we are all explained about the cautions of going under the knife in every situ. It can be deadly, and sometimes people don't handle the anesthesia as others would. It seems to me this case will come down to deprivation of H20 and that's the anethesiologists. There will be suits, granted but now is not the time. For the most part if you are flat line.....you should unplug. Most don't realize that the money alone to keep a person in a vegatative state, would ruin them financially. I hope a 2nd opinion and some laymans terms to them about what flat line brain dead really means will help them make the right decision.
 
  • #88

I think there is misuse of the term "brain dead" in some of these situations. There are criteria and different terminology used, depending on the extent of brain activity. Many links are posted above and the tests performed in order to determine brain death are also posted.

There is a difference in a physician saying that a patient is likely not to recover because of the extent of damage inflicted on the brain and a person actually being brain dead. A person that is brain dead is legally dead. Their body is being kept alive only due to machines.

I think once the next opinion is given, hopefully there will be more clarity for those that question this and I hope that information is able to be shared with the public.
 
  • #89
Stated more simply, brain death is the irreversible loss of all function of the brain, including the brainstem. A patient determined to be brain dead is legally and clinically dead.

http://www2.massgeneral.org/stopstroke/protocolBrainDeath.aspx

although this is Mass law, still it should apply to all states, in laymans terms this site is very helpful.
 
  • #90
While the outcome is different, this case reminds me a bit of the lung transplant child a few months back in Pittsburgh. ALL information released was filtered through the mother.
The hospital's hands were tied as far as being able to explain their side of it.

I have dealt with several brain death determinations in children in the past few months at work. It is tragic, awful, emotionally wrenching for ALL involved.

But brain death determinations are very specific and the guidelines for determining them are strict. (In other words, it's not easy to declare someone brain dead). There is never just one determination- it must be repeated hours later by another physician. The results must be exactly the same to both MDs. Then and only then can a determination be made.

How is that girl doing btw? Anyone know?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 
  • #91
I just talked to Dr. Zuri to get a better idea of what might have happened from a medical perspective. This is speculation but makes medical sense. I was wrong in what I had posted about bleeding factors not being screened. A bleeding time is typically done to determine whether a patient's ability to clot is in a timely fashion. If the bleeding time is prolonged, a hematologist is usually consulted to figure out what blood factors may be present. If a bleeding time was not done, that could be a problem for the ENT doc.

Ok. Dr. Zuri said IHO not having read anything about this case, that the morbid obesity and neck size were likely key contributors. During a tonsillectomy, the patient is intubated nasally. Because of neck size, the intubation may have been "traumatic" meaning very difficult sometimes causing laryngeal tissues to swell. Due to her size, during surgery, more air has to be forced into the lungs, which sometimes causes alveoli to burst, resulting in decreased respiratory function once extubated. She was extubated and seemingly alert in the recovery room. Then the perfect storm. She bled which may have been a result of surgery, blood dyscrasia, intubation, extubation. The swelling of laryngeal tissue combined with the bleeding compromised her airway, thus not allowing oxygen circulation.

For brain death to occur, the brain is starved of oxygen for 4 minutes (or less in MO patients). The heart, being starved for oxygen does not pump enough circulating oxygenated blood. Blood pressure falls. The heart stops. IV fluids are given at a rapid rate to increase volume. In MO patients, there is usually a degree of heart enlargement. The increased IV volume being delivered overwhelms the heart and with lake of oxygen and cardiac compromise, the heart stops. CPR begins. The anesthesia docs are trying to get an airway either via intubation or tracheostomy while patient is being bagged. Since the airway is occluded, this is usually very difficult. Bagging the patient with airway occlusion with an ambu bag is unbelievably difficult. The chest doesn't rise like it is supposed to. While someone is trying to intubate the nose, someone else may be trying to do a trach. Mind you, having been in this scenario, everything is happening so fast, and if one person is unsuccessful, another doc moves in to try. Yes, there is a very high level of anxiety, almost panicky. Oxygenated Blood is not being circulated. The brain is not getting oxygen and upper neuron function is being lost causing the brain to die.

Once an airway is established and heart function restored ( through defibrillation, cardiac drugs, volume), efforts are made to stabilize the patient. However, oxygen deprivation has not just starved the brain, causing it to die, it has starved every major organ system. Dr. Zuri said it is unlikely that Jahi responds to mother's touch. The Brain Death EEGs are done to determine brain wave activity, usually a series of three. If all are the same, the patient is declared brain dead.

I asked Dr. Zuri about the feeding tube if placed and then life support is withdrawn, does the feeding tube matter. He said no because the patient is brain dead and not in any other brain state. I asked him about the coroner's request and comments. He said that the COD determination could be complicated by the intervening treatments such as massive amounts of steroids, drugs, healing of tissues. In a malpractice suit, it has to be proven that there was negligence and harm. Delaying things could work against the family IHO.

Another factor is cost. Once a patient has been declared brain dead, the insurance company will cease to pay the hospital for costs incurred. I would imagine that her care is probably between 2-4K a day. The hospital will eat that unless if a lawsuit is taken to court, and found not negligent, the family will be held liable for those costs. UGH.

Dr. Zuri felt that there would be an out of court settlement by the hospital to the family. He also thought that the one sided negative press was harmful to the hospital which is why they are asking the family for permission to speak and clarify some of the misinformation that has been disseminated by the family and their attorney.

Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to share with you what a doctor thought. He may be totally off base, but he just explained things to me as I understood the facts to be. There truly are no winners here. JMO
 
  • #92
Also to just add, medicine is in my wheelhouse, but I had to have Dr. Zuri to break this down simplistically so I could understand what he was saying. What I have relayed is my understanding of what he explained to me. He is off hitting golf balls since it is 60 degrees here and all the snow has melted. If there are any changes to be made, once he gets back, I will post the corrections. If anyone has a question, post it and I will ask him. HTH
 
  • #93
@zuri - what is dr. zuri's opinion regarding the decision to perform what seems to be elective/non-essential surgery on a morbidly obese minor? I would think that unless her health was somehow gravely compromised by the tonsils, no doc in his right mind would have agreed to perform it.

jmo
 
  • #94
@zuri - what is dr. zuri's opinion regarding the decision to perform what seems to be elective/non-essential surgery on a morbidly obese minor? I would think that unless her health was somehow gravely compromised by the tonsils, no doc in his right mind would have agreed to perform it.

jmo

Dr. Zuri said the tonsillectomy would help her sleep apnea. Her symptoms of not having energy, trouble concentrating in school, bed wetting would be helped. He said that patients with sleep apnea do not have good metabolism and tend to gain weight at a rapid pace, thus causing even more inactivity and weight gain. I asked him the same question! HTH
 
  • #95
FWIW, wiki on tosillectomy, below.
Based on this mortality rate, there are ~35 tonsillectomy deaths annually in the US in patients under 15 y/o.
Effectiveness

The procedure is often not effective or only modestly effective, and does not get rid of sore throats altogether.[5][6] In children there is only a short-term benefit; without tonsillectomy a child who meets these strict criteria will probably have 6 throat infections in the next two years while one who has surgery will probably have 3 throat infections. After two years there is little difference in the rate of infection.[7]
Frequency

More than 530,000 procedures are performed annually in children younger than 15 years in the United States.[4] The current tonsillectomy "rate" is 0.53 per thousand children and 1.46 per thousand children for combined tonsillectomy and adenoidectomy.[8]
Adverse effects

The Disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia rate associated with tonsillectomy is 2% to 4% due to post-operative bleeding; the Mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is 1 in 15,000, due to bleeding, airway obstruction, or Anesthesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia complications.[9] BBM
 
  • #96
http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_24765964/oakland-family-brain-dead-girl-seeks-injunction-keep

In a legal filing, the hospital's attorney says that "two separate Children's physicians determined that Ms. McMath was brain-dead. In addition, at the request of the family, three additional independent physicians -- unaffiliated with Children's and either selected by or approved by Ms. McMath's family/next of kin -- examined Ms. McMath.

"Each confirmed the diagnosis of brain death. ... Accordingly, Children's has declared Ms. McMath to be dead."

The hospital listed numerous steps officials took to support the family once the diagnosis of brain death was made, including repeated meetings with medical staff, support from social workers and the hospital's chaplain, special accommodations for visits, a room for the family to meet away from Jahi, and space in the facility's Family House.
 
  • #97
I work in Pediatric ICU at a major children's hospital, and obesity-related sleep apnea is the most common reason for tonsillectomy that we see.

And for the AP who asked about the lung transplant child- she eventually required TWO transplants and is now connected to a ventilator at home full time.
 
  • #98
meanmaryjean, I did not know that. thanks.
 
  • #99
I work in Pediatric ICU at a major children's hospital, and obesity-related sleep apnea is the most common reason for tonsillectomy that we see.

And for the AP who asked about the lung transplant child- she eventually required TWO transplants and is now connected to a ventilator at home full time.

IMO it's ridiculous! There is no reason for any child to be obese! Before a scalpel comes anywhere near a child the parents need to be educated and the child's diet modified, if parents are unwilling, the child is being abused and should be removed.


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  • #100
Original letter from family's attorney to Children's Hospital Oakland. Written so quickly letter refers to son rather than daughter. Please read page 2 paragraph on MICRA's (Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act) $250,000 cap on non-economic (pain and suffering) damages.

http://www.cbdlaw.com/Letter-to-CHO.PDF
 
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