Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[Elley Mae]

"The family believes she is alive," Dolan said. "It is our position that no doctor can make a determination about end of life without parental consent."

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Independent-brain-exam-ordered-for-Jahi-McMath-5088771.php

 

[gngr~snap]

"The family believes she is alive," Dolan said. "It is our position that no doctor can make a determination about end of life without parental consent."

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Independent-brain-exam-ordered-for-Jahi-McMath-5088771.php

I'm jaded. What parent would ever consent to having a dead child?
If a doctor tells me my child is gone,does he need my consent first in order to say that to me? Ugg.
No.
moo

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[Elley Mae]

I'm jaded. What parent would ever consent to having a dead child?
If a doctor tells me my child is gone,does he need my consent first in order to say that to me? Ugg.
No.
moo

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

I see someone is paying attention. j/k

I thought the same thing. Infact I had to read it over.... and again. Then I thought wow really. This lawyer is running out of wiggle room. jmo.
So according to this lawyer unless a parent consents to their child's death they are alive. So there you go. It's fun sometimes to wake up in the middle of the night and read new things. :fence:

 

[MissJ]

But at this point they seem more hell-bent on punishing the hospital through Jahi. I just don't feel like it's about Jahi any longer.

I think this will stretch out with multiple appeals that probably won't end until after this child's heart stops beating for good.

I'm curious why you believe such procedures such as a trach would be considered unethical.

Because she is dead. Surgery is not performed by MD's on dead people. Treatment is for the living.

 

[MissJ]

I'm baffled why it would be "unethical" because the person is brain dead yet hospitals do it for patients who are in irreversible comas and ask families to agree to a DNR order.

Irreversible coma is different from brain death.

 

[SwampMama]

I have done a lot of reading on the subject and read a lot of doctors explain about brain death and what it really means. One doctor explained it rather well although it was a rather graphic comparison. I can't find the link again but here is the gist of what he said. He rather bluntly compared it to someone who has been decapitated yet somehow kept on life support.

You may puzzled at that for a few seconds and say " but they can't keep decapitated people alive on life support".

True, the doctor said, but with all of the medical advances today, don't you think that it could be possible?

Sure, you say, it could be possible given the advances in technology and life support. But WHY would anyone want to keep a decapitated body alive? It has no chance of ever recovering or being able to think, or do anything but be hooked up to a machine. Is that even ethical? What purpose would that even serve to keep them on such support?

The doc replied "Exactly my point. A brain dead person is essentially decapitated, dead from the neck up. They have no more capability to think than a decapitated person would. But we don't use heroic methods to try and keep a decapitated person alive and we should NOT do the same with a brain dead person. They do not need to be on life support any longer than it takes to make accommodations with the family so they can be prepared and make arrangements (usually 1-3 days). Patients need to understand that."

 

[Trino]

While it's probably not my business, I cannot help but wonder...

Why is the receiving facility taking the liability for this child? Is it for compassion or for money? Is the facility in SoCal, as the family says, or out-of-state, as the donations site states? How is the family going to be near their child if they live in Oakland?

I'm guessing the family will request more time for donations, and the judge will give it to them. But, I don't think a judge can order a doctor to perform surgery that might be needed for a new facility. Hospitals (at least in my state) don't run doctor's lives; doctors dictate to hospitals. I have not heard of a doctor stepping forward.

I originally wondered about the insurance continuing to pay, but I'm guessing they will do so, especially if they have been paying while she's been connected to support systems. Maybe it's cheaper than fighting a lawsuit.

Will the family ever say this is enough? When the body decomposes and the organs cease functioning, will the family blame the new facility for not giving the proper care?

 

[Sonya610]

I've got a relative with Von Willebrands who also nearly bled to dead after surgery. Since it's hereditary all the cousins in the family have been tested for it but no one else has it.

Von Willebrands is extremely common in some dog breeds too, so common it is routinely tested for or "expected" if a dog seemed to bleed more an usual. While it can be as bad as hemophilia often it sort of comes and goes. It is easy to test for and usually it is manageable in canines (i.e. my vet would give thyroid meds for a couple of days before surgery in dogs that had a high likelyhood of carrying VWD, she said thyroid meds would make the platelets "stickier" for a short time and help prevent excessive bleeding).

 

[Sonya610]

Following this case has been very educational. I for one didn't really fully understand the difference between brain death and a vegetative state (never really researched it).

I am guessing many other lay people have learned a lot from this case too. I used to think it was a very gray sort of line between the two (vegetative vs. brain dead, I guess because I thought of it from the perspective of the person experiencing it) but having learned that brain death means the body actually starts to decompose makes the difference EXTREMELY clear!

 

[otto]

This is an interesting article on brain death and vegetative states. It also reviews the debate surrounding brain death and organ transplant. I suspect that Bryne saw the BBC documentary and has since been stuck on the topic.

http://bcbt.upf.edu/bcncs/files/death_unconsciousness_NatureRevNeurosci05.pdf

 

[txsvicki]

This is an interesting article on brain death and vegetative states. It also reviews the debate surrounding brain death and organ transplant. I suspect that Bryne saw the BBC documentary and has since been stuck on the topic.

http://bcbt.upf.edu/bcncs/files/death_unconsciousness_NatureRevNeurosci05.pdf

The link mentions cases of 50 patients who suffered death of the brain and the rest of the body kept going many months on ventilation, or chronic. The author seems to think the conclusion is that some (or most?) Did not begin to decompose until after ventilation was stopped, but no reason given as to why no decomposition. It does say that at autopsy and the skull opened, the brain will be shown to have liquified.

 

[Donjeta]

And an attorney stepped in on behalf of the family in this case and got a Judge involved. If nothing else of benefit comes from this case, I hope at least in the future the hospital pauses and doesn't rush parents to terminate life support just to fulfill some kind of transplant agenda.

JMO but I don't believe that Jahi was ever a candidate for being an organ donor. I haven't seen the family say that they were ever asked to donate her organs and I'm sure it would have been an argument, seeing as how they got Dr Byrne involved. (You just want her off life support so you can give her organs elsewhere....)

It doesn't seem to me that they've treated her like they would be treating a prospective organ donor. She was an overweight teenager with severe enough sleep apnea that it warranted surgery so there may have been cardiovascular problems and microscopic organ damage from longstanding mild hypoxia during sleeping. After the surgery she had a heart attack and had blood pumped out of her lungs, making her lungs and heart not viable for transplant in any case. Then, the longer she's spent on artificial respiration the more likely that there is damage to the other organs as well.

 

[jjenny]

The family reports she moves and attempts to take breaths on her own. if either is true, she's not brain dead.


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If she is breathing on her own, they could turn the ventillator off and she shouldn't die.
But family doesn't want the ventillator turned off.

 

[Donjeta]

This is an interesting article on brain death and vegetative states. It also reviews the debate surrounding brain death and organ transplant. I suspect that Bryne saw the BBC documentary and has since been stuck on the topic.

http://bcbt.upf.edu/bcncs/files/death_unconsciousness_NatureRevNeurosci05.pdf

The most striking things for me in that article were the picture of normal brain metabolism vs the brain dead brain metabolism (hollow skull sign) and the information that after a week in a brain dead state the brain will have liquefied through autolysing processes and will pour out of the skull if opened.

Also they quote Maimonides who noticed that decapitated individuals sometimes have involuntary jerking movements that are not under central control.

 

[Sonya610]

The link mentions cases of 50 patients who suffered death of the brain and the rest of the body kept going many months on ventilation, or chronic. The author seems to think the conclusion is that some (or most?) Did not begin to decompose until after ventilation was stopped, but no reason given as to why no decomposition. It does say that at autopsy and the skull opened, the brain will be shown to have liquified.

I would think it has to do with the condition/health of the body before death and how well the blood keeps flowing to the extremities after death.

Each cell that comprises our bodies has its own individual life, if those cells receive the oxygen and nutrients required for survival they will continue to live (i.e. you can grow the cells of a dead person in a petri dish for years, does that mean the person is still alive?). Just because the body does not appear to be decomposing doesn't mean there isn't significant cell death that is not so obvious.

 

[Softail]

:dunno: I really don't believe she will be transferred anywhere. What is puzzling is why the attorney keeps making these claims? I believe the hospital, That they have not heard from anyone. I just don't get it. :waitasec:

Jahi McMath: Family trying to raise money to get 13-year-old airlifted out of state

Sealey said that on Friday, the family; their attorney, Christopher Dolan; and the attorney for Children's Hospital Oakland had a conference call with one of the facilities to prove Jahi could be accepted there. The family said they are withholding identifying the facilities' names to ensure the privacy of patients and to not interfere with Jahi's potential transfer, and asked Children's Hospital to respect those wishes.

Sam Singer, a public relations expert hired by the hospital, said despite the family's reports, the hospital has not heard from either the McMath family or Dolan in more than 24 hours about any progress on transferring Jahi. He said the medical director of the Southern California facility was supposed to call the family back and Dolan would contact Children's Hospital, but that has not happened.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24810427/jahi-mcmath-family-trying-raise-money-get-13

 

[Trino]

So, now it's NY for this child. How is a family living in Oakland going to visit her? Will the entire family move if she ends up there?

Donations have reached over $13,000. Many (most?) donors believe she will recover. Amazing.

 

[Softail]

So, now it's NY for this child. How is a family living in Oakland going to visit her? Will the entire family move if she ends up there?

Donations have reached over $13,000. Many (most?) donors believe she will recover. Amazing.

When she isn't transferred anywhere, do you suppose the family will give these people their money back? :waitasec:

 

[Trino]

When she isn't transferred anywhere, do you suppose the family will give these people their money back? :waitasec:

No. I don't think so.

 

[Softail]

The gofundme statement by the mother has changed. It originally said they were looking for donations to transfer her. Now it says:

All donations will go torwards the fight to keep her on life support.

http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath


For reference, this is what it originally said:

On the site, Winkfield writes: "I am raising money for my daughter Jahi McMath so that she can be airlifted to a hospital out of state. Her insurance does not cover it and Children's Hospital is going to remove her off life support if can't get her out of this hospital."

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24810427/jahi-mcmath-family-trying-raise-money-get-13