Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[otto]

The most striking things for me in that article were the picture of normal brain metabolism vs the brain dead brain metabolism (hollow skull sign) and the information that after a week in a brain dead state the brain will have liquefied through autolysing processes and will pour out of the skull if opened.

Also they quote Maimonides who noticed that decapitated individuals sometimes have involuntary jerking movements that are not under central control.

Brain dead is described as "functional decapitation". There's no confusion about what is possible when someone is brain dead ... nothing is possible anymore.

 

[Trino]

14,000.00 plus now.
In reading the post jahi's mom made 6 hours ago they are without a place yet again.
And is blaming children's hospital.


http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath

So what's the money for?

Well, apparently, the mother hasn't worked in over a month (her choice) so I guess it would go to supporting her and the family while the fight continues. I don't really think it's going to go to the patient.

 

[Karmady]

:dunno: I really don't believe she will be transferred anywhere. What is puzzling is why the attorney keeps making these claims? I believe the hospital, That they have not heard from anyone. I just don't get it. :waitasec:

Jahi McMath: Family trying to raise money to get 13-year-old airlifted out of state

Sealey said that on Friday, the family; their attorney, Christopher Dolan; and the attorney for Children's Hospital Oakland had a conference call with one of the facilities to prove Jahi could be accepted there. The family said they are withholding identifying the facilities' names to ensure the privacy of patients and to not interfere with Jahi's potential transfer, and asked Children's Hospital to respect those wishes.

Sam Singer, a public relations expert hired by the hospital, said despite the family's reports, the hospital has not heard from either the McMath family or Dolan in more than 24 hours about any progress on transferring Jahi. He said the medical director of the Southern California facility was supposed to call the family back and Dolan would contact Children's Hospital, but that has not happened.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24810427/jahi-mcmath-family-trying-raise-money-get-13

Just saw this and wanted to correct myself. I assumed he was a lawyer because they linked to his website, etc. (I know, I know :blushing. The quote I posted still isn't attributable to him, but he IS the hospital spokesmen, not its lawyer. My bad!

 

[Tulessa]

Are we sure about that? I have read several times now that insurance does NOT cover the deceased and that the hospital has to cover the costs.

As far as the statement any funds will "go towards the fight" might mean food or large screen TVs or buying vehicles that help the family continue the fight or comfort them if the fight is lost. JMO.

Yes, It was revealed earlier (with link) IIRC, That her insurance would cover for a period of months.

 

[jjenny]

Someone many pages back explained that condensation in the mouthpiece is common and family witnessing it frequently think that means the person is trying to breathe (it stops the respirator for a breath etc....).

I heard them talk about it. They are looking at some sort of line on a respirator's monitor. They claim the line turns pink and that means she is breathing on her own.

 

[Trino]

Even if $20,000 is reached, I don't think it's going to cover a trip to NY - maybe the flight, but I suspect there would need to be a paramedic plus a nurse on board or maybe even a doctor.

There would also need to be special ground transportation to the CA airport and from the NY airport - no idea where the NY facility is located. Then, there would be the cost of transportation back for those who accompanied the patient.

Then, too, what about the cost of the family going along?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I heard them talk about it. They are looking at some sort of line on a respirator's monitor. They claim the line turns pink and that means she is breathing on her own.

Yes! That!
Who told them that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...land-court-appoint-independent-expert-examine

Nailah Winkfield sent out pictures through social media on Monday showing that Jahi's ventilated breaths were reduced from 15 to 13, but Dr. Durand said that such a change is in keeping with "the status quo" of maintaining Jahi's condition.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1312/23/cg.01.html
BASH: What signs are you seeing?

WINKFIELD: Well, there's -- we look on her respirator, and there's this line that shows the machine breathing for her, and it's green. And it usually stays at 15 all the time. But we were told by the nurses if it goes above 15 or if the line starts to turn pink, that means she's taking her own breaths.

And for the past few days, we have been seeing the lines turning pink and we have been seeing the numbers going up. And I always ask the nurse just to be sure, like, is this signs of my daughter taking trying to take her own breath? And they come in and they take a look and they all told me yes. But that's it. They never want to give you any type of hope, but this is some of the first times I have seen this so I actually even pulled out my phone and started to record it.

And they say what they're looking for is a consistency in the numbers going up and in the line staying pink. But I'm thinking that's an improvement just showing her taking her own breath, because they told me, without a brain, you can't take your own breath. Well, she's trying, so there's something in there that's working.


Apparently, whether the number of breaths goes up or down, it's a good sign either way.

 

[otto]

Because it's not all or nothing. People who are not brain dead can be on a ventilator and attempt to breath on their own once in awhile, and gradually more and more. They're given the opportunity to gradually wean off.
The family never said she could breath without the vent. They said she attempts to once in awhile.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

I think that breathing is an all or nothing function. The family can say whatever they want, but that doesn't make it true. Are all the doctors mistaken, or is the family desperate to believe something that is not supported by medical science?

What would be the purpose of keeping a human shell alive? What is the long term objective?

 

[otto]

14,000.00 plus now.
In reading the post jahi's mom made 6 hours ago they are without a place yet again.
And is blaming children's hospital.


http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath


So what's the money for?

No facility will accept a brain dead person.

There is no reason for the family to collect money.

 

[Donjeta]

I think that breathing is an all or nothing function. The family can say whatever they want, but that doesn't make it true. Are all the doctors mistaken, or is the family desperate to believe something that is not supported by medical science?

What would be the purpose of keeping a human shell alive? What is the long term objective?

It is possible for sick and injured people to require ventilator support only part of the time but I don't think it's the case with Jahi.

 

[Piekun]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...land-court-appoint-independent-expert-examine

Nailah Winkfield sent out pictures through social media on Monday showing that Jahi's ventilated breaths were reduced from 15 to 13, but Dr. Durand said that such a change is in keeping with "the status quo" of maintaining Jahi's condition.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1312/23/cg.01.html
BASH: What signs are you seeing?

WINKFIELD: Well, there's -- we look on her respirator, and there's this line that shows the machine breathing for her, and it's green. And it usually stays at 15 all the time. But we were told by the nurses if it goes above 15 or if the line starts to turn pink, that means she's taking her own breaths.

And for the past few days, we have been seeing the lines turning pink and we have been seeing the numbers going up. And I always ask the nurse just to be sure, like, is this signs of my daughter taking trying to take her own breath? And they come in and they take a look and they all told me yes. But that's it. They never want to give you any type of hope, but this is some of the first times I have seen this so I actually even pulled out my phone and started to record it.

And they say what they're looking for is a consistency in the numbers going up and in the line staying pink. But I'm thinking that's an improvement just showing her taking her own breath, because they told me, without a brain, you can't take your own breath. Well, she's trying, so there's something in there that's working.


Apparently, whether the number of breaths goes up or down, it's a good sign either way.

I'm not medically trained so I'll let those in the know have the final say, but it sounds to me like the number/color of the line can have small changes that are just glitches or false positives and that only when it happens consistently over a short period of time does it actually suggest anything.

 

[Sonya610]

I think that breathing is an all or nothing function. The family can say whatever they want, but that doesn't make it true. Are all the doctors mistaken, or is the family desperate to believe something that is not supported by medical science?

What would be the purpose of keeping a human shell alive? What is the long term objective?

Actually it isn't an all or nothing function. Folks that are on respirators have to be weaned off of them as after a few days the muscles become weak or whatever and they can't just start breathing regularly on their own.

I am referring to LIVING people that are conscious and aware.

Thing I don't get about this ultra religious family, if she dies she goes to heaven and such right? Eternal happiness and joy with Jesus etc... Free pass to everlasting bliss etc....

Then why is death the worst thing possible for the folks that follow a certain religion?

 

[otto]

Actually it isn't an all or nothing function. Folks that are on respirators have to be weaned off of them as after a few days the muscles become weak or whatever and they can't just start breathing regularly on their own.

I am referring to LIVING people that are conscious and aware.

Thing I don't get about this ultra religious family, if she dies she goes to heaven and such right? Eternal happiness and joy with Jesus etc... Free pass to everlasting bliss etc....

Then why is death the worst thing possible for the folks that follow a certain religion?

I don't see this as a religious issue. Religion states that deceased people should rest in peace, not that they should be plugged into machines and have surgeries.

 

[Softail]

No facility will accept a brain dead person.

There is no reason for the family to collect money.

Sure there is. I think Sonya said it best.....

Are we sure about that? I have read several times now that insurance does NOT cover the deceased and that the hospital has to cover the costs.

As far as the statement any funds will "go towards the fight" might mean food or large screen TVs or buying vehicles that help the family continue the fight or comfort them if the fight is lost. JMO.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

It's my opinion that the judge gave the delay out of sympathy for the family over the holidays. The judge was clear that the child is legally dead and gave a date and time for the ventilator to be removed.

As mad as the parents are with the hospital, I saw nothing at all that indicated during those initial days that they wanted her removed from their care. If I was as angry as the parents are with the hospital, I would have wanted my child out of there on day 1.

The family instead, went a route to bully the hospital into continued care for the child. Through the media, SM, rallies and courts, they have tried to force the hospital to perform medical procedures and keep a body that is legally dead on a machine. They have done everything they can to make the hospital look horrible, in the eyes of the public because they were not able to force this hospital to go against everything that is ethically and legally wrong by all medical standards. This is a dead body in an ICU unit.

It's evident that this is just not one facility or one doctor that shares the same ethics as this hospital, or long ago, someone would have stepped in and done differently.

The primary responsibility the medical community has is to the patient. As stated in the court document the family (both adults and siblings) have been provided with counseling and pastoral care, throughout this entire time. They have chosen to plug their ears to all knowledgeable information provided to them and instead have listened to the uninformed stories and well wishers that think somehow, the child that has received no blood flow to her brain for weeks is going to recover.

This poor child's body is laying there decomposing, while medical staff is required to tend to the body. Not because of the best interests of the patient but because the family doesn't want to let go.

The hardest part for me when loosing those that I loved and cared for the most, was looking at them in those last minutes and knowing I would not be able to touch, see or talk to them again. It was not my choice though, when they died. The furthest thing from my mind would have been to ask for their bodies to be given oxygen so I could prolong having to bury them. The thought of watching them decay, is horrendous.

What is done for one family, must be done for all that so wish and this goes against ethical treatment of a patient.

My sympathy is with the family for their loss. My heart is with Jahi, the patient, the now deceased, that she be allowed to rest in peace.

 

[meme4]

She was taken off the vent as one of the test, she did not breath......The family has also stated she has moved, these movements are spinal reflex movements which do not involve the brain.....I dont understand why this family is misinforming these donators....I understand they are in denial, but it doesnt change facts,she is gone and nothing is gonna bring her back......She isnt on a vent to help her breath, she cant breath at all.........

 

[atthelake]

For all those that are posting here, now maybe the time to review your wishes and your legal documents to ensure your wishes are known to your family. In the state that I live in, there is actually a codified downloadable form to fill out.

Once a year i review these documents, and my wishes, with all of my family... in addition to the person who is responsible for overseeing my healthcare directive in my state. i hope everyone here who is following this thread does the same.

Yes, there are different state laws, but knowing what the patients' wishes are is important to know.

Use this as an opportunity to get you to do such for yourself and your family perhaps?

:grouphug:

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[Donjeta]

I don't see this as a religious issue. Religion states that deceased people should rest in peace, not that they should be plugged into machines and have surgeries.

Not to make this a religious discussion but what I don't get about the faithful Facebookers is that they quote the Bible verses about all the dead that Jesus brought back to life and say that God decides, not man, we just have to believe in miracles. But why does God need the child to be on a man made respirator in order to perform his miracle? Lazarus was never on life support.

 

[scmom]

CLINICAL OBSERVATIONS COMPATIBLE WITH THE DIAGNOSIS OF BRAIN DEATH
The following physical findings are occasionally seen and should not be misinterpreted as evidence for brainstem function
•Spontaneous limb movements other than pathologic flexion or extension response
•Respiratory-like movements (shoulder elevation and adduction, back arching, intercostals expansion without significant tidal volumes)
•Sweating, blushing, tachycardia
•Normal blood pressure without pharmacologic support or sudden increases in blood pressure
•Absence of diabetes insipidus
•Deep tendon reflexes; superficial abdominal reflexes; triple flexion response
Babinski reflex

http://www.surgicalcriticalcare.net/Guidelines/brain_death_determination_2009.pdf