Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[jbjjm54]

I haven't read the previous posts on this thread so excuse me for being "Johnny Come Lately"!
I just want to say I understand this mother's desperation. This is her child that she entrusted to the medical professionals at CHO and they failed her. Now they want to wash their hands of the entire ordeal. IMO, the hospital wants this entire situation to end because the longer she lingers, the more they will have to pay out in a malpractice suit, i.e. future medical expense. Let's face it, if the surgeon or any surgeon did not come back to see Jahi when she started bleeding out then that is BEYOND WRONG!!!!! This is so very sad and tragic.

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[BeginnersLuck]

The family is blaming the hospital for all these other facilities backing out. The hospital is not allowed to speak. They have asked to be able to and the family will not allow it. Why?

As the family calls the facilities are they being honest with them about her condition? Are they saying insurance will cover and when the facility contacts the insurance company, the insurance is denying coverage? There could be many reasons why these other facilities are backing out, none of which are the result of the hospital.

The hospital, transport company and facility will all have to coordinate together, otherwise, you could have a transport company taking her to a facility that then denies accepting her. Then there is the cost issue. If not paid by insurance, or by the family, will these companies/facilities take her for free and for how long?

Where are the doctors at that are willing to perform surgery that will be needed for her to be kept at a facility and transported? Certainly Dr. Byrne must know someone and be able to make this happen, or does he just have a lot of hot air?

Maybe Dr. Byrne and others that share his beliefs, can start a foundation for those that wish to chose this route and families can care for brain dead patients at home.

(These are not my beliefs, but if there are those out there that are going to fight for this kind of treatment, then they should not expect all others to go against what they feel is ethical and force others to comply to their beliefs)

 

[wendiesan]

" court documents filed by hospital attorneys say the surgery was "complicated" and included procedures to remove tissue elsewhere in the throat and nose."

So it was not a routine tonsillectomy at all.
It sounds like she may have had some nasal surgery as well.
It sounds like more than just removing the adenoids but maybe not.
Moo
ETA: So, was she spitting in a cup and into nakins and not suctioning herself? Did grandma start the suctioning on her own?

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No. Not a routine surgery.
Bumping my previous post.

Regarding the specific procedures undergone by Jiha McMath.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/165734995/jahi1

"Ms. McMath was admitted to Children's Hospital on December 9, 2013, for a complicated surgical procedure consisting of an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty, and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates."

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I haven't read the previous posts on this thread so excuse me for being "Johnny Come Lately"!
I just want to say I understand this mother's desperation. This is her child that she entrusted to the medical professionals at CHO and they failed her. Now they want to wash their hands of the entire ordeal. IMO, the hospital wants this entire situation to end because the longer she lingers, the more they will have to pay out in a malpractice suit, i.e. future medical expense. Let's face it, if the surgeon or any surgeon did not come back to see Jahi when she started bleeding out then that is BEYOND WRONG!!!!! This is so very sad and tragic.

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The hospital has been denied by the family the ability to share the medical records and speak about the case. What we have heard is only the families side and it has been shown to not be truthful. We don't know why she died or what was done because we can't see the medical records.

This is not about money, this is about what is ethically right as far as the patient goes. The child has legally been declared dead. There is no other hospital or doctor offering to take her, therefore, no matter what hospital she was treated at it appears they would all be at this same conclusion that we are seeing with this hospital.

 

[K_Z]

One of the major issues the family is not talking about, and the news reporters are not discussing, is that it is not enough just to get a "bed" at a nursing home, and arrange complicated and VERY expensive ground and air transportation. Every admission to ANY facility has to have a physician who will write orders for their care in a daily and ongoing fashion. There are apparently no long term or acute care physicians willing to accept her body as a patient.

Curious that someone like Dr. Byrne (in his 80's) might not be willing to help find a physician who doesn't believe in brain death to accept and care for this girl's body. Or get an instate NY license, admitting privileges, and do it himself, KWIM?

Why are none of these anti-brain death docs (are there more than 1 or 2?) not helping the family arrange care for Jahi's body in the family's home? Is home care not an option for Jahi's family? Why is that not an option they are pursuing? It would greatly simplify the process of moving her body out of the hospital, if that is really what they want to do. Why is the only option another facility, hospital, or nursing home? I would be just fine with them taking her body home until her heart stops.

Death is not an optional or elective condition, IMO, and families should not get to decide what criteria meets death. This is not a religious issue, IMO. This is not a civil rights issue, IMO. I know that is an unpopular idea for some people, but I believe the place to change the legal definitions, if indeed enough people feel the definitions should be changed, is in the legislatures.

 

[meme4]

The hospital is not trying to wash there hands of anything, if they made a mistake its in their best interest to keep her on the vent........This has turned into a media circus, with only one side beng told, now money is being donated and people calling for the president to get involved......A child has died, and its being debated where to place her to live.....Maybe I'm being insensitive, but this is insane.....

 

[K_Z]

I haven't read the previous posts on this thread so excuse me for being "Johnny Come Lately"!
I just want to say I understand this mother's desperation. This is her child that she entrusted to the medical professionals at CHO and they failed her. Now they want to wash their hands of the entire ordeal. IMO, the hospital wants this entire situation to end because the longer she lingers, the more they will have to pay out in a malpractice suit, i.e. future medical expense. Let's face it, if the surgeon or any surgeon did not come back to see Jahi when she started bleeding out then that is BEYOND WRONG!!!!! This is so very sad and tragic.

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Respectfully, I think there is a lot of valuable information in the previous pages of this thread. I recommend anyone new to the discussion to read the whole thread. The discussion is robust, and there is a lot of insight into how this is unfolding. The situation is far from simple, and we only have the POV of the family. We have no real idea what happened in the ICU, who knew, and if the ENT service was involved.

 

[Softail]

The hospital is not trying to wash there hands of anything, if they made a mistake its in their best interest to keep her on the vent........This has turned into a media circus, with only one side beng told, now money is being donated and people calling for the president to get involved......A child has died, and its being debated where to place her to live.....Maybe I'm I am being insensitive, but this is insane.....

I don't think you are being insensitive at all. I happen to agree with you - It is insane. I also find it almost criminal, or borderline fraud that the family continues to solicit donations. Granted, people give of their own free will, but come on. The money will end up in their pockets. I seriously don't see any transfer. People donating seem as nutty as the family. :nuts: :twocents:

ETA: They are up to 16K. http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I gave up on the blindly giving of money by people a long time ago. I've seen it in so many cases. It's their money. If they get upset later, as I've seen happen before, then it should get chalked up as a learning lesson to do more research first.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't see this as a religious issue. Religion states that deceased people should rest in peace, not that they should be plugged into machines and have surgeries.

I like to see the passage, verse or whatever doctrine you're using to come to that determination.

IMO religion is the best leg they have to stand on.




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[wendiesan]

Not surprising.

How very sad to see this family keep knocking on doors and getting a NO answer.

~jmo~

They are getting answers. Just not the answer that they want to hear. They want a miracle and they will rely on people who confirm that they are right to expect everyone else to meet their expectations. They will keep on knocking and not listening until they have no choice but let go of Jahi, and will still complain that they didn't have enough time, or weren't given enough special treatment.

IMO, God answers all prayers. Just sometimes, he says no.

 

[Sonya610]

I haven't read the previous posts on this thread so excuse me for being "Johnny Come Lately"!
I just want to say I understand this mother's desperation. This is her child that she entrusted to the medical professionals at CHO and they failed her. Now they want to wash their hands of the entire ordeal. IMO, the hospital wants this entire situation to end because the longer she lingers, the more they will have to pay out in a malpractice suit, i.e. future medical expense. Let's face it, if the surgeon or any surgeon did not come back to see Jahi when she started bleeding out then that is BEYOND WRONG!!!!! This is so very sad and tragic.

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So assuming they failed her, will that raise the dead? Because I don't see the dead being reanimated whether or not a surgeon messed up.

Do you jbjjm54?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I believe the hospital has done a really poor job caring for this child pre-surgery & post, a poor job detailing the risks, and a worse job helping her parents come to grips with her death.

IMO this surgery never should have been scheduled.


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[shana]

They are getting answers. Just not the answer that they want to hear. They want a miracle and they will rely on people who confirm that they are right to expect everyone else to meet their expectations. They will keep on knocking and not listening until they have no choice but let go of Jahi, and will still complain that they didn't have enough time, or weren't given enough special treatment.

IMO, God answers all prayers. Just sometimes, he says no.

Thank you. I didn't phrase my post too well. I meant that they are receiving the answer "No", not that they are getting no answer. And I agree that they want a miracle and are looking for others to help them achieve their personal goal. I wish they would stop knocking on doors and accept the tragic situation for what it is: Jahi is deceased.

~jmo~

 

[sherbetjello]

This case, and peoples reaction to Childrens Hospital, made me wake up and give a healthy donation to Childrens this morning.

I know that something went very wrong for Jahi's family in all of this, they lost an incredible member of their family.

However, punishing this hospital, and people taking up pitch forks to "make them pay for the care of Jahi the rest of her life" is unacceptable when this hospital does SO MUCH GOOD WORK for children over the year.

It's really frustrating.

I've gotten to the point of . . . It's enough. All of it, it's enough.

 

[Sonya610]

a poor job detailing the risks

I think the risks probably WERE explained but ignored or not understood. They probably thought the risks mean someone didn't want to spend money on the surgery.

They don't understand the situation as it stands, do you really think they could have understood the risks? I don't.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think the risks probably WERE explained but ignored or not understood. They probably thought the risks mean someone didn't want to spend money on the surgery.

They don't understand the situation as it stands, do you really think they could have understood the risks? I don't.

Have you had any sort of non emergency surgery? I have. The risks ARE glossed over. People are brought up to trust and defer to doctors. so while risks are explained they are poo poo'd by the very doctors suggesting the surgery. At least that's been my experience.

While this outcome may be rare, it's an all too real possibility. I'd bet my last dollar it was never detailed to the parents. Risks were glossed over., as they always are!

Ever watch commercials for prescription medications ? It's almost comical that the possible side effects are far worse than what they're prescribed for! While side effects maybe rare... Possible side effects like Anal leakage, death and stokes outweigh any possible benefit IMO.


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[Sonya610]

People are brought up to trust and defer to doctors.

If trusting and deferring to doctors explains this mess then they would be deferring to them now.

Did someone screw up? Well we don't know because the hospital cannot share the records and info.

 

[wendiesan]

Have you had any sort of non emergency surgery? I have. The risks ARE glossed over. People are brought up to trust and defer to doctors. so while risks are explained they are poo poo'd by the very doctors suggesting the surgery. At least that's been my experience.

While this outcome may be rare, it's an all too real possibility. I'd bet my last dollar it was never detailed to the parents. Risks were glossed over., as they always are!

Ever watch commercials for prescription medications ? It's almost comical that the possible side effects are far worse than what they're prescribed for! While side effects maybe rare... Possible side effects like Anal leakage, death and stokes outweigh any possible benefit IMO.


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I've had scheduled surgery, and I've scheduled surgery for my daughter when she was a child. As well, following an unprovoked attack, my son had emergency surgery. In every case my GP, the surgeon, the nurse, the anaesthetist went to great pains to explain the possible outcomes so that I would know where to go for support, etc. (I made my DNR will the day I got the talk before my surgery.) I'm sorry to hear that other people had such different and, possibly, devastating experiences.

 

[SeekingJana]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...land-court-appoint-independent-expert-examine

Nailah Winkfield sent out pictures through social media on Monday showing that Jahi's ventilated breaths were reduced from 15 to 13, but Dr. Durand said that such a change is in keeping with "the status quo" of maintaining Jahi's condition.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1312/23/cg.01.html
BASH: What signs are you seeing?

WINKFIELD: Well, there's -- we look on her respirator, and there's this line that shows the machine breathing for her, and it's green. And it usually stays at 15 all the time. But we were told by the nurses if it goes above 15 or if the line starts to turn pink, that means she's taking her own breaths.

And for the past few days, we have been seeing the lines turning pink and we have been seeing the numbers going up. And I always ask the nurse just to be sure, like, is this signs of my daughter taking trying to take her own breath? And they come in and they take a look and they all told me yes. But that's it. They never want to give you any type of hope, but this is some of the first times I have seen this so I actually even pulled out my phone and started to record it.

And they say what they're looking for is a consistency in the numbers going up and in the line staying pink. But I'm thinking that's an improvement just showing her taking her own breath, because they told me, without a brain, you can't take your own breath. Well, she's trying, so there's something in there that's working.


Apparently, whether the number of breaths goes up or down, it's a good sign either way.

Forgive me if this has been answered in the past few minutes.

I have worked with ventilator- dependent people who had paralytic drugs given to them so they were not capable of taking one short breath by themselves.

However, a mechanical ventilator does have safety " valves" built in, for lack of a better term. When the pressure in the line going into the lungs increases, the respirator will signal that there is increased pressure. The most common cause for the ventilator to alarm " High Pressure" is a patient trying or taking a breath on their own. This is probably what the grandmother is used to seeing. This is not happening in Jahi's case.

Guess what ELSE causes " increased pressure" in the system?
Tangled or pinched tubing can give a " high pressure" alarm, so can excessive condensation, which is caused only by inattention to the ventilator on the part of the Respiratory Therapists, as there is a condensation collection bag in the dependent bend of the tubing which extends towards the floor. It is imperative to keep the fluid going " out" not back into the lungs of a ventilator- dependent person. Also, a build- up of secretions can cause a " high pressure" alarm very easily.


IMO, the grandmother who is an RN is used to seeing people who are attempting to take spontaneous breaths trigger the pressure alarm. This is so common, I can't even SAY. However, I have given examples of other things which cause the pressure alarm to alarm and one of those other things would NECESSARILY be the cause of Jahi's ventilator alarms or high pressure lights to come on.

Thank you for reading.