Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[MyBelle]

The standard that they not be affiliated in any way with the hospital as I understand it. No breach of testing protocol,medical qualifications or similar. Or maybe I missed something? Personally, I'm glad they brought in the guy from Stanford. I'm sure his conclusions carry a lot of weight and can't honestly be refuted. The only remaining argument is whether brain death is life in the same sense as comas, vegetative states or major brain injuries. I notice that the court filing doesn't even touch that issue and cites case law based on those other types of conditions. I guess they'll cross that bridge when they come to it. Interesting legal issues. Too bad it has to come up in this context.


mo

If the standard was that the two doctors could not be affiliated with the hospital then why did the hospital not follow the standard?

I think a video showing the patient reacting to her mother might also carry a lot of weight with a Court in deciding if such a patient meets the legal definition of death. These are very interesting legal issues but the failure of the hospital to follow the standard in evaluation for brain death does merit further investigation, imo.

 

[gngr~snap]

END OF THE LINE IN THE ICU
jmo- but it sounds like heck on earth!
This is a long article and not for the faint of heart, but for those realky wanting to know what (could) be going on with sweet Jahi, very infromative.
moo
Original article.
http://www.brooklynrail.org/2012/11/express/end-of-the-line-in-the-icu

Reprinted in a blog -same article.
http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/11/16/end-of-the-line-in-the-icu/

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Karmady]

What pediatrician told anybody Jahi isn't brain dead? She was examined by six specialists. Everybody agreed she is brain dead.

Is the guy they wanted to examine her a pediatrician? I noticed that the papers say he "visited" rather than "examined."

 

[LinasK]

Of course not. I personally have no problem with them refusing to disclose the location to the public. However, I firmly believe that CHO needs all of the information requested through their attorney on December 27 (available on their website).

My point is that just because we the general public do not know which facility is willing to accept Jahi on a ventilator, only that it is in NY state, does not mean it doesn't exist, or that it is made-up- which I've seen posted here at WS. It only means that they want to protect their privacy. I'm sure the family will coordinate her move with Children's, if Children's will let her go, which they previously stated they wouldn't!

 

[jjenny]

If the standard was that the two doctors could not be affiliated with the hospital then why did the hospital not follow the standard?

I think a video showing the patient reacting to her mother might also carry a lot of weight with a Court in deciding if such a patient meets the legal definition of death. These are very interesting legal issues but the failure of the hospital to follow the standard in evaluation for brain death does merit further investigation, imo.

I don't beleive that to be the standard at all.

 

[jjenny]

My point is that just because we the general public do not know which facility is willing to accept Jahi on a ventilator, only that it is in NY state, does not mean it doesn't exist, or that it is made-up- which I've seen posted here at WS. It only means that they want to protect their privacy. I'm sure the family will coordinate her move with Children's, if Children's will let her go, which they previously stated they wouldn't!

Children's never said they wouldn't let her go. They said they wouldn't carry out additional surgeries on her.

 

[LinasK]

If the standard was that the two doctors could not be affiliated with the hospital then why did the hospital not follow the standard?

I think a video showing the patient reacting to her mother might also carry a lot of weight with a Court in deciding if such a patient meets the legal definition of death. These are very interesting legal issues but the failure of the hospital to follow the standard in evaluation for brain death does merit further investigation, imo.

It's my opinion that Children's Hospital is in CYA mode.:twocents:

 

[Karmady]

If the standard was that the two doctors could not be affiliated with the hospital then why did the hospital not follow the standard?

I think a video showing the patient reacting to her mother might also carry a lot of weight with a Court in deciding if such a patient meets the legal definition of death. These are very interesting legal issues but the failure of the hospital to follow the standard in evaluation for brain death does merit further investigation, imo.

Isn't that one of the issues the family's lawyer cited as being unclear? The construction of the law that requires an "independent" second look, I mean. I'm guessing that up until today, the commonly accepted meaning was two docs independent of each other, not independent of the hospital itself. It looks to me that this argument was raised for the first time by the family's attorney as the "hook" to get the initial TRO. And, good for him, it worked. jmo

 

[mck16]

If the standard was that the two doctors could not be affiliated with the hospital then why did the hospital not follow the standard?

I think a video showing the patient reacting to her mother might also carry a lot of weight with a Court in deciding if such a patient meets the legal definition of death. These are very interesting legal issues but the failure of the hospital to follow the standard in evaluation for brain death does merit further investigation, imo.

Has this video been shown publicly? If not who has seen it? ty

 

[LinasK]

If new facts were found why did the family's attorney wait until 4pm pt to bring this to the judges attention and not have been working with hospital staff and the facility who has allegedly agreed to accept Jahi as a patient to get the ball rolling for a transfer.

Why wasn't the doctor at court to confirm these 'facts'?
If had just examined Jahi he would certainly be around to help facilitate the transfer.

We are seeing a lot of claims by the family and their attorney with no evidence to back it up.

You don't know what's been going on behind the scenes. Doesn't matter if it was 4PM, he made the deadline with an hour to spare. We the general public won't know all the details, and that's allright- it's not a murder trial with sunshine laws and it's none of our business!!!

 

[vlpate]

It's the family's wishes and quality of life that are important- not what the majority at WS wants.

Quality of life for whom? Even if by some miracle she were to wake (which has never happened in recorded history after dead brain stem diag.), she would have severe brain damage due to the lack of oxygen (as in none), to her brain.

Brain death is the total and irreversible loss of all brain function

More

 

[MyBelle]

Because, unless it has changed its position (and I've seen nothing to say it has), CHO has terms for releasing her which include a discussion with the receiving facility. There are policies and protocols established for the removal of a deceased person from the hospital; as well, the Coroner will need to approve. (More upthread)

~jmo~

I don't believe there are any terms for releasing her that haven't been met. If the Court had ordered the hospital to release her to another facility, maybe then I could see your point but no hospital can keep a patient against their will. The hospital has to respect the restraining order.

If the Coroner's office has no problem with the transfer, once out their door, the hospital has no say, imo.

 

[Karmady]

It's my opinion that Children's Hospital is in CYA mode.:twocents:

They seriously have nothing to CYA. If there's been medical malpractice, that ship has sailed as far as the hospital is concerned. IMO, it's clear they WILL be sued for it and it's clear that case WILL be settled by the insurers. They've got nothing to gain by removing her from the vent in terms of liability. jmo

 

[MyBelle]

Has this video been shown publicly? If not who has seen it? ty

I don't know because it hasn't been made public.

 

[Elley Mae]

If the family has a transfer all set, why is it asking for nutrition again?

Attorney representing Jahi McMath seeking court injunction for additional nutrition for brain-dead teen. @kron4news

~jmo~

To me the question is, How many times has this been asked/demanded? I think they want the hospital to do this(insert feed tube) then say, why would a hospital insert a feeding tube in a dead person? And start all over again. jmo

 

[shana]

Children's never said they wouldn't let her go. They said they wouldn't carry out additional surgeries on her.

Yes, the hospital did not find it medically appropriate to perform surgeries required for a feeding tube or the trach for her breathing apparatus as the family was requesting.

As well, CHO's conditions for Jahi's release were very clearly stated in several news articles. They conform to its protocol for releasing the bodies of deceased patients (typically to the Coroner) but presumably modified to suit this unique case.

~jmo~

ETA: Custody to the Coroner for his sign-off but physically the body may be moved directly to the mortuary chosen by family, afaik.

 

[LinasK]

To me the question is, How many times has this been asked/demanded? I think they want the hospital to do this(insert feed tube) then say, why would a hospital insert a feeding tube in a dead person? And start all over again. jmo

No, I strongly disagree! This family would rather have their daughter alive and well over money. The reason for the feeding tube is that Jahi doesn't have the consciousness to swallow solid food. She needs nutrition to keep her body going and they need to be able to transport her. NG-tubes can be easily dislodged, so a G-tube is preferable, and is considered a minor surgery.

 

[Zuri]

Is the guy they wanted to examine her a pediatrician? I noticed that the papers say he "visited" rather than "examined."

I would think a neurologist's opinion would carry more weight than a pediatrician's, but I have no idea what is truly going on here. The only reason I say neurologist's opinion, is because their specialty is the brain. JMO

 

[vlpate]

END OF THE LINE IN THE ICU
jmo- but it sounds like heck on earth!
This is a long article and not for the faint of heart, but for those realky wanting to know what (could) be going on with sweet Jahi, very infromative.
moo
Original article.
http://www.brooklynrail.org/2012/11/express/end-of-the-line-in-the-icu

Reprinted in a blog -same article.
http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/11/16/end-of-the-line-in-the-icu/

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

Depressing but excellent read, thank you.

 

[MyBelle]

It's my opinion that Children's Hospital is in CYA mode.:twocents:

Shouldn't they be? I was stunned to read the filings up thread that the Judge determined the hospital did not follow the standard in their initial determination the child was brain dead. That's scary stuff and how this entire tragedy started, imho.