Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[threecrazykids]

Jahi had always snored, but about a year ago it became louder. She told her mom at one point: "Mom, I've never had a dream."

Her interrupted sleep started affecting her grades in school, which is common with severe sleep apnea cases, and that's when her mother became concerned.

"It really didn't bother her. She was so used to it, but as her mother it bothered me because I knew the effects," Winkfield said.

A pediatrician visit led to an ear, nose and throat expert, which led to an evaluation that determined she had a "very severe case" of sleep apnea.

Winkfield's research led her to the Oakland children's hospital, where the surgery was performed.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

She found out her daughter was in a coma from her own first floor hospital bed, she said.

It sounds to me like NW wasn't even anywhere around to actually SEE what happened since she wasn't even in the room when she went downhill. She says right there that when she heard an alert called she rushed back to Jahi's room and staff were already there trying to restart her heart so it couldn't have been THAT long.

I also am not sure how much I believe of their "witness" accounts. Maybe I watch entirely too much TV and movies, but typically when the bleep hits the fan family is ushered out of the room - and fast. They get them OUT so they aren't adding any MORE chaos by screaming and such during an already critical situation.

 

[rob]

In every ICU I've ever visited, the nurses, if not in the room, are right outside the door. When my son was in ICU, he had his own nurse, who was seeing to only him. If she left the room, and the machines made any different noise, or if I thought anything had changed, I went to get her. Usually, if I just walked to the open door, whoever his nurse was, would be sitting at the nurses desk, and would immediately get up and ask 'what's up?'. It's hard for me to understand a lot of things going on, and no nurses being right on the scene.

 

[K_Z]

I know we sometimes have media only threads for a case, but this situation calls for a medical reference thread. JMO

We are on the 7th thread for discussion on this case. It seems that even after Jahi's heart stops, there will be inevitable lawsuits, and possibly continued interest in discussion.

I'm not sure how the mods decide when to create a specific forum for a case, versus hosting threads within a general category. There must be some threshold that prompts that.

It's a good question, though. It seems that there is sustained interest in the case, at this point. Is a separate forum, with media threads, etc, a possibility for this case? Is a moderator or administrator willing to discuss the pros and cons of that? Thanks in advance.

I'm fine with whatever the mods decide. But I like things sorted, categorized, and organized. That's just me!

 

[popsicle]

John Horgan: Readers react to Jahi McMath commentary

Dr. Marty Klein, a Palo Alto psychologist, responded with a slightly different take. He wrote that, although he does most definitely sympathize with the family members and empathizes with the loss of an innocent child, he does not feel the ensuing unseemly public spectacle, encouraged and exacerbated by the family's attorney, has served them well. Here are some of his comments:

http://www.mercurynews.com/john-horgan/ci_24912184/john-horgan-readers-react-jahi-mcmath-commentary

 

[Donjeta]

John Horgan: Readers react to Jahi McMath commentary



http://www.mercurynews.com/john-horgan/ci_24912184/john-horgan-readers-react-jahi-mcmath-commentary

I wonder why the reporter chose to single those responses out. Neither of the readers comes across particularly well. One says he empathizes and understands but doesn't really sound like he does, and another relates an anecdotal experience that no doubt was very hard for her but isn't really relevant in Jahi's situation. And this...

—...When Jahi's hospital wanted to pull the plug on a child patient right before Christmas, I felt it was a cold move and cynically wondered if they were trying to cover up something with their action. If I were to judge anyone in this case, it would be the hospital.

We've heard this before so many times and it still doesn't make any sense to me. How would the hospital pulling the plug serve to cover anything up? She would just have ended up on the medical examiner's table faster and the autopsy report might have exposed some wrongdoing. Are people suggesting that the hospital wanted the plug pulled so Jahi couldn't wake up and testify that the surgeon was drunk in the OR (while she was under anesthesia) or something? The fact that it was near Christmas is just coincidental; other hospitals do not keep people who die in December in life support for weeks waiting for the holidays to pass either.

 

[Cubby]

We are on the 7th thread for discussion on this case. It seems that even after Jahi's heart stops, there will be inevitable lawsuits, and possibly continued interest in discussion.

I'm not sure how the mods decide when to create a specific forum for a case, versus hosting threads within a general category. There must be some threshold that prompts that.

It's a good question, though. It seems that there is sustained interest in the case, at this point. Is a separate forum, with media threads, etc, a possibility for this case? Is a moderator or administrator willing to discuss the pros and cons of that? Thanks in advance.

I'm fine with whatever the mods decide. But I like things sorted, categorized, and organized. That's just me!

I think the OP meant a thread for media links and medical references only. A no discussion thread, possibly, similar to those set up for missing persons cases. We don't have a separate subforum for that here in the Up to the Minute forum, but possibly the mods will allow one in the WS reference area.

I will bring this to the mod's attention.

 

[Quester]

I thought I read that mom and ?step?-dad were in with JM after surgery when bleeding started. Then, mom went to get gma who replaced mom in the room.

But article posted just up thread said mom was alerted to problem in the room by announcement ?over loudspeaker? to room 10 - JM's room.

Ugh! Impatiently waiting for a firm timeline of events to be released.

ETA: Oh and I forgot Uncle O was there too OR he was in Cabo on the beach ... :facepalm:

 

[meanmaryjean]

I thought I read that mom and ?step?-dad were in with JM after surgery when bleeding started. Then, mom went to get gma who replaced mom in the room.

But article posted just up thread said mom was alerted to problem in the room by announcement ?over loudspeaker? to room 10 - JM's room.

Ugh! Impatiently waiting for a firm timeline of events to be released.

ETA: Oh and I forgot Uncle O was there too OR he was in Cabo on the beach ... :facepalm:

BBM: I would advise you to not hold your breath awaiting such a thing.....

 

[Herat]

BBM: I would advise you to not hold your breath awaiting such a thing.....

We're talking years for the lawsuit to be filed. There is also a chance the records/testimony might not be released if there is a settlement.

Yeah, so don't hold your breath.

Of course, that doesn't mean Dolan and the family won't be making many unsubstantiated statements to the MSM for years. But that's not what counts in court. It's those medical records and sworn testimony, including that of the family members.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

We're talking years for the lawsuit to be filed. There is also a chance the records/testimony might not be released if there is a settlement.

Yeah, so don't hold your breath.

Of course, that doesn't mean Dolan and the family won't be making many unsubstantiated statements to the MSM for years. But that's not what counts in court. It's those medical records and sworn testimony, including that of the family members.

If hospital personnel are not in any way responsible for what happened to Jahi, I hope that CHO doesn't settle out of court. The truth needs to be told.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
- Sir Walter Scott -

 

[nrdsb4]

---------
Danzn, can I add Jahi's grandmother is not a nurse. I think LPN is more like it. I've never seen an LPN or NA. use the suction machine, or give meds. At least the many hospitals I've visited. I hope she didnt go ahead anyway.IMO.:seeya:

LPNs are in fact nurses. A "Licensed Practical Nurse" does not have the same education as a RN and their scope is limited in comparison. But a LPN is most certainly a nurse and they do give medications.

As an aside many hospitals no longer employ LVNs in my state. A hospital where I once worked no longer hired them but did not fire the ones who were there. They could give meds but not IV push meds. This was a problem on the oncology floor since so many meds are IV. This caused friction between the LVNs and RNs as the RNs frequently had to interrupt their care of their own patients to give IV push drugs for the LVNs.

LVNs are still widely used in long term care in my state and many of them are very very good nurses.

 

[Herat]

If hospital personnel are not in any way responsible for what happened to Jahi, I hope that CHO doesn't settle out of court. The truth needs to be told.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
- Sir Walter Scott -

The truth is rarely told in personal injury lawsuits........

 

[mac66]

I can assure you that L.P.N.s do suction, give meds, hang IVs, start IVs, moniter IVs, give tube feedings, do sterile dressings, etc. I could go on and
on. They are also charge nurses and nurse managers. The place for an L.P.N.
is not in ICU. Their training is in caring for stable patients, though we're certainly prepared to deal with emergencies. Like any other health care professional, we call for help . I have been an L.P.N. for 34 years .

 

[meanmaryjean]

I can assure you that L.P.N.s do suction, give meds, hang IVs, start IVs, moniter IVs, give tube feedings, do sterile dressings, etc. I could go on and
on. They are also charge nurses and nurse managers. The place for an L.P.N.
is not in ICU. Their training is in caring for stable patients, though we're certainly prepared to deal with emergencies. Like any other health care professional, we call for help . I have been an L.P.N. for 34 years .

I started my nursing career as an LPN. They most certainly ARE nurses, but they work under a different scope of practice and under the supervision of an RN. Depending on the location/ training/ circumstances, they can do all of the above.

 

[Donjeta]

Waah...there still are new news articles saying that Jahi had a tonsillectomy.
http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20140115/LIFESTYLE/301150009

Deaths put focus on child surgery risks
Common procedures are generally safe, however, experts say
Jan. 14, 2014 4:27 PM | Comments

arents who sign consent forms for medical or dental procedures on their children often do so with trepidation.

For many, that concern likely increased in recent weeks with reports that seemingly commonplace procedures — in one case a tonsillectomy, in another, dental work — ended in two children’s deaths.

Tonsillectomy-related fatalities are not common; they occur in the “1 in every 30,000 range,” said physician Richard Rosenfeld, director of the Institute for Advanced Otolaryngology at New York Methodist Hospital in Brooklyn.

Fact checking, what's that.

 

[Quester]

On CHO public FB page, "Posts by Others", see 1/8/14 post by DJ:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Chil...113605218673201?directed_target_id=0&filter=2

 

[Hopeful One]

What is the difference between a LVN and a LPN? I don't think I've ever heard of a LVN.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I wonder why the reporter chose to single those responses out. Neither of the readers comes across particularly well. One says he empathizes and understands but doesn't really sound like he does, and another relates an anecdotal experience that no doubt was very hard for her but isn't really relevant in Jahi's situation. And this...



We've heard this before so many times and it still doesn't make any sense to me. How would the hospital pulling the plug serve to cover anything up? She would just have ended up on the medical examiner's table faster and the autopsy report might have exposed some wrongdoing. Are people suggesting that the hospital wanted the plug pulled so Jahi couldn't wake up and testify that the surgeon was drunk in the OR (while she was under anesthesia) or something? The fact that it was near Christmas is just coincidental; other hospitals do not keep people who die in December in life support for weeks waiting for the holidays to pass either.

BBM: Yes, people are saying that they hospital wanted to pull the plug because they are insensitive and/or because it is related to the payout in a lawsuit being less if she is deceased. There seems to be some mass conspiracy going around that hospitals end lives to save money and to harvest organs.

Here is Terry Schavio's brother speaking. He is the director of the Terry Schavio Foundation. Notice how he completely skirts over the question about the laws:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/30205011...s-family-stands-by-jahi-mcmath/#sp=show-clips

I'm getting very confused. I understand the conception side of the argument (which includes not using birth control), but the end of life views are something I never thought of. or was unaware of.

I wasn't aware there are those out there against organ donations because of the heart still beating. They want to throw out everything to do with brain death. They don't even talk about the laws, they just bash the medical community. I don't understand how far this goes with the end of life care.

Do they want people in hospice type situations, that are suffering, to be kept alive as long as possible? Where does this movement end?

 

[Hopeful One]

BBM: Yes, people are saying that they hospital wanted to pull the plug because they are insensitive and/or because it is related to the payout in a lawsuit being less if she is deceased. There seems to be some mass conspiracy going around that hospitals end lives to save money and to harvest organs.

Here is Terry Schavio's brother speaking. He is the director of the Terry Schavio Foundation. Notice how he completely skirts over the question about the laws:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/30205011...s-family-stands-by-jahi-mcmath/#sp=show-clips

I'm getting very confused. I understand the conception side of the argument (which includes not using birth control), but the end of life views are something I never thought of. or was unaware of.

I wasn't aware there are those out there against organ donations because of the heart still beating. They want to throw out everything to do with brain death. They don't even talk about the laws, they just bash the medical community. I don't understand how far this goes with the end of life care.

Do they want people in hospice type situations, that are suffering, to be kept alive as long as possible? Where does this movement end?

BBM

I can picture it, 50 years from now, we have the next level of nursing homes... brain dead patients are kept "alive" by machines indefinitely. Families can come visit their "living" corpses. They could be called Deniably Dead Respite Homes or something such to the liking.

:doh:

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

What is the difference between a LVN and a LPN? I don't think I've ever heard of a LVN.

Based on posts by our esteemed medical professionals, Licensed Vocational Nurse and Licensed Practical Nurse appear to have similar credentials. Perhaps the titles vary regionally. In Michigan, they are called Licensed Practical Nurses. :moo:

ETA: (took phone call earlier) My sister attended nursing school at Harper-Grace Hospital (Detroit) in the mid-70s. She became a Licensed Practical Nurse after 15 months of training. She worked part-time in a nursing home while she continued studying to become a Registered Nurse.