Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Slebby]

Hit the nail on the head.

John Ramsey stated that he and Patsy had heard that Lou used to park in front of the Ramsey house every morning on his way to work to pray. So John decided that they should go to the house, introduce themselves and pray with Lou. They got in his van and did just that.

What Lou Smit recorded about this gathering: "That prayer was really an emotional experience. And when I said that, I pray that the Lord will be with the soul of Jonbenet, and I felt John's hand squeeze so tightly*. And I just felt at that time, there's no way this man could have anything to do with the death of his daughter."*

From that moment on he not only lost objectivity but any sense of professionalism he may have had. It was highly inappropriate for him to embark upon a personal relationship with the Ramseys while investigating the case. And it then became all about proving their innocence and making the evidence fit to that scenario instead of following where the evidence led.

He defied the DA by keeping investigative materials that he should have returned, as they were in his possession because he was on the DA's payroll, when he resigned from the case and severed his relationship with the DA's office and the prosecution team. At some point after the GJ, he embarked on a self promoted media tour to anyone and everyone who would give him a platform, at which time his theories went virtually unchallenged. But we know in reality much of his theorized opinions were easily debunked.

Reading transcripts of Lou's interviews with John is quite revealing IMO.

Bolding by me

I wish I could give this post multiple likes!
Smit was very well meaning, but extremely biased. The part I have bolded absolutely blows my mind. I have been part of religious circles where praying with someone who identifies as “Christian” is evidence of their goodness and character. I do believe Smit was sincere but sincerely wrong about the Rs. I believe he sought evidence to fit his gut feeling. It makes me sad the resulting influence he had on this case, and that, from what I’ve heard, his family has carried on his crusade to a certain extent. Can you imagine, being a junior Smit, looking at, say, the RN objectively and disagreeing with Lou?

I contrast LS as true believer in R innocence because “gut feeling” to the ridicule heaped on Linda Arndt for reporting her gut feeling that she was looking into the eyes of the killer, a comment she has paid for.

IMHO

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

My honest opinion is that I think given her situation, having gone through rather grueling treatment for cancer, which included a hysterectomy which included removing her ovaries and chemo, she had to be suffering from some side effects. We know she started having panic attacks and the removal of her ovaries would have sent her into an early menopause. LHP said she had noticeable mood swings. Add to that the stress of the holidays (and she was charged with doing pretty much everything for Christmas), a trip to NYC, numerous holiday parties, 2-3 events with JonBenet, two back to back trips she had to pack for everyone for, the last minute party on the 23rd, I can only imagine she’d be exhausted and stressed. JB did not like the Twinn doll Patsy had special ordered for her, and they fought over JonBenet not wanting to wear a matching outfit to Patsy’s for Christmas dinner at the White’s. It all sounds a little like it could’ve been a recipe for disaster…..building up to her “going psycho”.

Oops. This was in response to ispyewithmylittleeye’s comment which I neglected to include….

I'm going to play devils advocate with some questions I genuinely dont know the answers to.
How many months had it been since the hysterectomy? What length of time would be reasonable to get regulated on replacement therapy?
Your observations about the holidays really got me thinking about the stress PR would have been under, particularly with a husband that didn't seem to involve himself in much surrounding home or children. All very good points.

My only thought that plays against it is that your/my standards are probably much higher than PRs were. I think a lot of things that would stress me the hell out like the messy house or so many obligations may not have bothered her. I mean I couldn't fathom traveling with garbage bags of stuff.
The childrens hygeine and habits alone stress me out but obviously did not bother Patsy. I wonder if JBR wet the bed, why she wouldn't just stick her in the other bed and let the housekeeper deal with it since they were leaving. That's seems more like her MO.
Just food for fodder

 

[CloudedTruth]

I'm going to play devils advocate with some questions I genuinely dont know the answers to.
How many months had it been since the hysterectomy? What length of time would be reasonable to get regulated on replacement therapy?
Your observations about the holidays really got me thinking about the stress PR would have been under, particularly with a husband that didn't seem to involve himself in much surrounding home or children. All very good points.

My only thought that plays against it is that your/my standards are probably much higher than PRs were. I think a lot of things that would stress me the hell out like the messy house or so many obligations may not have bothered her. I mean I couldn't fathom traveling with garbage bags of stuff.
The childrens hygeine and habits alone stress me out but obviously did not bother Patsy. I wonder if JBR wet the bed, why she wouldn't just stick her in the other bed and let the housekeeper deal with it since they were leaving. That's seems more like her MO.
Just food for fodder

Good points.

I believe the 1st cancer diagnosis was in the latter half of the year in 1993. I recall her mentioning having symptoms while in Charlevoix in July. Searches aren’t too specific but say she was 36 when diagnosed. She would have turned 36 in December of 1993. She underwent 9 months of chemo, unsure how long after surgery that started. And we don’t know if she did HRT.

From what I have researched, it takes about 3 months to get regulated on HRT, but how soon after having chemo you can start, I don’t know. Whether it was a good option for her would be a discussion with her doctors, I have also read that HRT has a risk in causing some cancers. I think HRT also has a variance of effectiveness from person to person. It works well and quickly for some, not so well and takes longer for others, and I have also heard some women say it really didn’t work much at all for them.

I do think you’re right about different standards and the fact that she didn’t seem bothered by the chaotic, messy state of her house or the poor hygiene of her children. That would send me over the edge. It’s also been reported that John had recently yelled at her about her lack of housekeeping skills. His expectations were that was her responsibility. And she was failing even with a housekeeper he was paying for. That supposedly upset her quite a bit and John seemed to be so removed from all of that I doubt it would ever occur to him that she might be overwhelmed or stressed. And it's a very interesting dichotomy of her personality I think for someone who was so obsessed by appearances that she did seem unconcerned about her children's lack of good hygiene, and especially in light of her "beauty queen" history. She paid people to decorate the house for parties and when it was on display, but the rest of the time she didn't seem concerned. Weird.

Linda did note that the sheets on JB’s bed were not the same ones she had made her bed with on 12/23, the last time she was there. Someone must’ve changed them.

 

[Chypre]

I'm going to play devils advocate with some questions I genuinely dont know the answers to.
How many months had it been since the hysterectomy? What length of time would be reasonable to get regulated on replacement therapy?
Your observations about the holidays really got me thinking about the stress PR would have been under, particularly with a husband that didn't seem to involve himself in much surrounding home or children. All very good points.

My only thought that plays against it is that your/my standards are probably much higher than PRs were. I think a lot of things that would stress me the hell out like the messy house or so many obligations may not have bothered her. I mean I couldn't fathom traveling with garbage bags of stuff.
The childrens hygeine and habits alone stress me out but obviously did not bother Patsy. I wonder if JBR wet the bed, why she wouldn't just stick her in the other bed and let the housekeeper deal with it since they were leaving. That's seems more like her MO.
Just food for fodder

I'm reading Kolar's book now. There was a washer/dryer on the same floor close to JonBenet's room. It was routine.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

It was not the main staircase, correct.

That said, the note was not on the spiral staircase when officer French arrived. We have only Patsy’s account that was where she found it. John did not even see it on the stairs. Then neither could remember how or where it got handed off to John.

Both Patsy and John supposedly handled the note, yet no fingerprints from either one of them were present.

The police officer handled the note yet they only lifted one partial print of his. The note had lots of smudged prints that obviously are useless because they’re smudged. Hence, no prints.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

I have lot of proof. But it's not my proof. It's proof from the professionals who have looked at this case. Yes it is my opinion but my opinion is based on proof. There are mountains of proof. I have to head out but over the weekend I will present some of the proof that points to no intruder. Until then feel free to ask questions and I will do my best to answer them.

How do you explain saliva DNA mixed in with jonbenets blood on her underpants? Skin cell DNA of the same male under jonbenets fingernails and touch dna on the left and right sides on the waistband of jonbenets long Johns pants?

 

[Ponytale]

I do think you’re right about different standards and the fact that she didn’t seem bothered by the chaotic, messy state of her house or the poor hygiene of her children.

This is why I do not believe her "losing it" and attacking JB to result a head blow. It would send me over the edge too, just like you. I'm quite a neat freak and care about my family's hygiene. But I do know of families with similar standards, where hygiene and a clean home are not a priority. And to me it seems that the parents of these standards and households do not get easily agitated about additional messes. They just do not care.

I sure think that she must have been under much more stress that Christmas and some time before it. I agree on that as there are statements that seem to tell the story and it is not hard to put yourself too in that situation, especially with all the known upcoming trips and events. She was doing it all, without much (if any) support. But again, IMO, JB was her world and she lived through her. That is what would have kept her from hurting her. Screaming, yes. Threats, yes. Psychological punishments like not allowing her to have/do something - yes. Even taking her red turtleneck aggressively off of her and throwing it balled to the sink. Scattering her hair ties to the floor while angry. Pounding doors and "going psycho" - I see all that and believe that there is truth in Burke's saying when he told he hear his mom doing that - he and JB must have seen and heard it multiple times, IMO, seeing Patsy acting out even on her police interview tapes. She sure had a temper. But, I think that something like JB not wanting to dress matching to Patsy, or not liking the doll she ordered for her - those things meant a lot more to her and caused her to be disappointed and angry, rather then JB's bet wetting issues. IMO

To me it rather would seem that she would not have cared if she had soiled herself or her bed again - the dirty sheets were in the laundry and someone did change her sheet. Her pull-ups and new clean sheets ready to be used when needed. It was a routine and neither of them cared. Just as same as they did not care about cleaning after themselves or keeping the house tidy. It was all a show. Like I said on another comment - their whole life seems like a pageant. They were used to put up a show of a perfect American family (and house) for everyone to see and believe, but when the curtains closed the masks came off and everything crumbled.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

This is why I do not believe her "losing it" and attacking JB to result a head blow. It would send me over the edge too, just like you. I'm quite a neat freak and care about my family's hygiene. But I do know of families with similar standards, where hygiene and a clean home are not a priority. And to me it seems that the parents of these standards and households do not get easily agitated about additional messes. They just do not care.

I sure think that she must have been under much more stress that Christmas and some time before it. I agree on that as there are statements that seem to tell the story and it is not hard to put yourself too in that situation, especially with all the known upcoming trips and events. She was doing it all, without much (if any) support. But again, IMO, JB was her world and she lived through her. That is what would have kept her from hurting her. Screaming, yes. Threats, yes. Psychological punishments like not allowing her to have/do something - yes. Even taking her red turtleneck aggressively off of her and throwing it balled to the sink. Scattering her hair ties to the floor while angry. Pounding doors and "going psycho" - I see all that and believe that there is truth in Burk's saying when he told he hear his mom doing that - he and JB must have seen and heard it multiple times, IMO, seeing Patsy acting out even on her police interview tapes. She sure had a temper. But, I think that something like JB not wanting to dress matching to Patsy, or liking the doll she ordered for her - those things meant a lot more to her, then JB's bet wetting issues. IMO

To me it rather would seem that she would not have cared if she had soiled herself or her bed again - the dirty sheets were in the laundry and someone did change her sheet. It was a routine and neither of them cared. Just as same as they did not care about cleaning after themselves or keeping the house tidy. It was all a show. Like I said on another comment - their whole life seems like a pageant. They were used to put up a show of a perfect American family (and house) for everyone to see and believe, but when the curtains closed the masks came off and everything crumbled.

It’s pretty normal to clean your house before guests arrive and live in a messy house when no guests are expected. Most people do that. The Ramsey house wasn’t dirty, it was lived in and it was Christmas.

 

[Ponytale]

The police officer handled the note yet they only lifted one partial print of his. The note had lots of smudged prints that obviously are useless because they’re smudged. Hence, no prints.

Or they wore gloves...

The notepad that was collected from the house and where the papers of the Ransom note came, showed five prints from Patsy, one from the sergeant who collected it and one from the document examiner. The ransom note itself had only one print, and it was from the document examiner.

 

[Ponytale]

It’s pretty normal to clean your house before guests arrive and live in a messy house when no guests are expected. Most people do that. The Ramsey house wasn’t dirty, it was lived in and it was Christmas.

My opinion differs from yours than. IMO, it is clearly visible from the photos and videos available that there was dirt (on the doors, floors, walls, carpets) and it did not come from an event of having guests over, but most possibly has been there a longer period of time. It indicates a lack of cleaning.
And there are also photos that show the house after the murder. All the rooms in that house were a mess. To me, the line between "lived in" and messy/dirty is clearly crossed. IMO

Yes, I too clean before guests come over. But I also clean after they have left. My house is also lived in, but it is not dirty.
And I wash my floors, walls, doors and other surfaces frequently, without it having anything to do with guests - I like me and my family to live in a clean environment.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Or they wore gloves...

The notepad that was collected from the house and where the papers of the Ransom note came, showed five prints from Patsy, one from the sergeant who collected it and one from the document examiner. The ransom note itself had only one print, and it was from the document examiner.

Linda Hoffman Pugh had the same note pad and pen at her house as well as the same roll of duct tape and cord wound around a stick according to police documents.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Linda Hoffman Pugh had the same note pad and pen at her house as well as the same roll of duct tape and cord wound around a stick according to police documents.

Then if the police man’s prints weren’t lifted off the ransom note after he handled it then there’s no problem with patsy or johns prints not being on the note. The prints on the note were smudged and unusable. If an item has smudged prints then it has no prints because they’re not finger prints, they’re smudges.

My opinion differs from yours than. IMO, it is clearly visible from the photos and videos available that there was dirt (on the doors, floors, walls, carpets) and it did not come from an event of having guests over, but most possibly has been there a longer period of time. It indicates a lack of cleaning.
And there are also photos that show the house after the murder. All the rooms in that house were a mess. To me, the line between "lived in" and messy/dirty is clearly crossed. IMO

Yes, I too clean before guests come over. But I also clean after they have left. My house is also lived in, but it is not dirty.
And I wash my floors, walls, doors and other surfaces frequently, without it having anything to do with guests - I like me and my family to live in a clean environment.

they had a cleaner. The house was clean. The “dirt” you think you see is fingerprint dust brushed on by forensics to lift fingerprints off every surface.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Or they wore gloves...

The notepad that was collected from the house and where the papers of the Ransom note came, showed five prints from Patsy, one from the sergeant who collected it and one from the document examiner. The ransom note itself had only one print, and it was from the document examiner.

The police reports clearly state the police officer handled the ransom note without gloves. Like I said, they only lifted smudges not prints. <modsnip - personalizing>

 

[Ponytale]

The police reports clearly state the police officer handled the ransom note without gloves. Like I said, they only lifted smudges not prints. <modsnip - personalizing>

<modsnip - response to snip in quoted post> I only expressed my opinion that they (the Ramsey's) also might have worn gloves.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

<modsnip - response to snip in quoted post> I only expressed my opinion that they (the Ramsey's) also might have worn gloves.

Opinions are not facts. Evidence is what should only ever be used. Opinions are conjectures.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Actually a Grand Jury heard testimony for months and voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey on 2 counts each. Child abuse and coverup. They heard everything including all evidence about an intruder. Burke Ramsey testified and so did Doug Stine. John and Patsy did not. There is no evidence of an intruder. None.

There is evidence of an intruder. He left his saliva in her underpants. His skin cells under her fingernails and his touch DNA on the waist band of her long Johns.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

In my opinion, it was the combination of everything you mentioned. The biggest mistake, not separating John, Patsy and Burke immediately and locking them into statements.

That DNA wasn’t secret, it was degraded. Not even enough to put into CODIS without bumping it. John knows this.
The touch DNA is a mixture from more than one source.
The nail clippers, they were proven to be contaminated if I recall correctly making anything obtained worthless.

This was never a DNA case, John knows it.
It’s the RAMSEY’s reasonable doubt.
The odds of finding a source of that DNA is a killzillion to none. JonBenet hadn’t been recently bathed, she herself could have picked it up anywhere.

The nail clippers weren’t contaminated per sae. They should have used a new clipper for each nail but instead they used the same nail clippers for all the nails. The skin cells DNA found under johnbenets fingernails matched the saliva dna found in her two blood spots in her underpants and the touch dna on the waistband of her long Johns.

 

[ShadyLady]

Linda Hoffman Pugh had the same note pad and pen at her house as well as the same roll of duct tape and cord wound around a stick according to police documents.

Could you please post where that information was found, I have never heard that.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Could you please post where that information was found, I have never heard that.

It’s in Steve Thomas’ book, ”When the detectives asked if the couple had any black tape, Mervin dug three rolls from his garage, only one unused. Then the detectives said they wanted white lined notepads, and Linda handed over one that seemed to be a visual match of the ransom notepaper and admitted it had come from the Ramsey house. A key? Two. Any felt-tip pens of the sort that probably wrote the ransom note? Three. Police found a two-foot piece of narrow nylon rope, then another length wrapped around a stick!”

 

[Chypre]

Linda Hoffman Pugh had the same note pad and pen at her house as well as the same roll of duct tape and cord wound around a stick according to police documents.

From Kolar,
"The entire notepad would eventually be examined by agents of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, and they determined that the ransom note had indeed been written on Patsy Ramsey’s pad of paper. Chet Ubowski determined that the first 12 pages of the notepad were missing. Police never found these pages, and it was presumed that they had been discarded as a matter of routine and not necessarily germane to the criminal investigation at hand. The next four pages, 13 through 16, were intact and contained miscellaneous writings, doodling and some lists. The next sequence of pages, 17 through 25, were missing and had been torn from the pad and were never found by police. The “practice note,” discovered by Kithcart, was located on page 26. Ubowski observed on page 26 signs of ink bleed-through from the missing 25th page. The perforated tabs at the top of the sheets of paper on which the ransom note had been written were matched to the torn tabs remaining on the notepad. Comparison of the torn segments of the 3-page ransom note matched the missing pages 27, 28, and 29. To investigators, it appeared that at least one, and perhaps two attempts had been made at starting a ransom note on pages 25 and 26 before the final product was completed on pages 27 through 29."
Edit to add: Lou Smit's explanation is the intruder wrote the note in the house.