Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #1,341
MOO -- I think JBR was a happy little girl with a good life, until evil visited her.

But one thing nags at me -- we know Fleet White changed her panties and even wiped her. While that may have been innocent, it may not have been. He may have been obsessed by how cute she was. She spent the night at the White's house often. And, she had some bedwetting issues. Someone at the White's house could have been touching her. Sometimes, SA children will wet the bed.

Obviously, I'm in the FDI camp, and not just because of his "caring" about JBR's hygienic issues. Where was his wife when those things needed attention?
Given the "possible" saliva in her panties & that FW had wiped the anus of this 6 year old girl, it brought to mind my earliest social work years. Some "funny uncle" types of males with this kind of access to young girls would sometimes take advantage of the opportunity to wet their own fingers then slide them into the labia and sometimes vagina to see if it elicited a titillated response from the girl. Young girls often dont even know this is not normal. Some males (and females) got off just watching faces for a response. Some used that response to convince themselves the girl was "ready" for more. It was so sickeningly routine to hear " but she wanted it".

I'm very aware that FW, or any person with such access to JBR, could have left saliva from a 5-10 minute or less bathroom encounter during a busy party. Or after arriving back home. It didn't have to happen in the basement back home. Digital insertion during "potty cleanups" can easily cause blood spotting & could be the source of the signs of chronic sa. Even BR, especially if he'd had access to pornographic content at his young age, could cause this. Was BR ever called on to "potty wipe" his own sister where that kind of quick sa coukd have happened undetected? That seemed to be a household sinking under general overwhelm while the Ramseys struggled to "keep up superficial appearances".

I'm behind on many details but is there any possibility at all that JR'S fresh panties were actually changed into at the White's house after soiling her own there? Did PR routinely take clean undies with her to account for JBR's frequent mishaps?
 
  • #1,342
I think one of most poignant things we have learned in this case is that what things look like from the outside is rarely a true picture of what may be going on behind closed doors. This is one of the most classic cases of that very idea. As this case has unfolded over the years and layers have been pulled back allowing glimpses into the dynamics of this family, it has become abundantly clear that this was a family that was highly dysfunctional with a daughter as another commenter here pointed out, may very well have been in crisis.

John may have been a "happy workaholic" but that also meant that he was not as aware of what was going on in his own house as he should have been. Many of the people who had worked for them over the years assisting with child care and housekeeping spoke of being overwhelmed with the workload and underpaid as a result. The house often looked like a hoarder's den and that's with a housekeeper. John had recently gone off on Patsy for her poor (nonexistent?) housekeeping skills. That was after all her realm, her responsibility. And she was failing. There are signs that she was overwhelmed, signs that her husband should have seen.

The kids were essentially left to their own devices. Not expected to clean up after themselves, not being taught to respect their home. They had poor hygiene habits, poor toileting habits.

Yes, the Ramseys socialized a lot. They had expensive toys, they took expensive holidays. It's all pretty glitzy on the surface, but is that really what makes people happy? By all accounts the marriage was more like a business arrangement than an actual marriage. John had to be told by friends when Patsy was very ill and fighting for her life that he needed to take a little time off and support her. She was flying to and from Baltimore all by herself and sick as a dog. Where was John? Working. I wonder how that made Patsy feel, that her husband was so caught up in working that it didn't even occur to him that maybe he could take a few days off here and there to be with her in the fight of her life so that she didn't have to be alone.

The had a big house filled with stuff. But a great life? That's not how I would describe it.

And both of them made NO effort to follow kidnapper's directions. But, did work hard to contaminate the whole crime scene...and per Linda the detective, paid little attention to the timeframe of when the kidnappers would call...just too much...
Yep. The whole frickin place was contaminated and now the Ramsey’s are yelling for DNA justice? From the clothes and ligature that was moved how many times among how many people on carpet and flooring where? Oh the entrance of the house and living room?
Miracle DNA found solves the case?Yeh right…
But there stands Patsy Ramsey in the same clothes from the previous night… but John Ramsey took a shower and was in such a hurry to go downstairs per Patsy yelling - he only had his underwear on reading the ransom note… Where was JR’s DNA found anyway? Should it have been on the body of JB from carrying her up the stairs?
 
  • #1,343
From the "Listen Carefully" book -- they did.

"John and Patsy also said they checked on JonBenét’s brother, Burke, that morning. They claimed he was fast asleep despite Patsy having “screamed for John” from JonBenét’s bedroom, which was near Burke’s on thesecond floor."
From which version of their story?
Weren’t there something like 6?
 
  • #1,344
I think I remember reading that they called Fleet "Mr. Mom" as kind of a joke, but he did take care of the kids a lot. His daughter Daphne was I think the same age as JB, so it tracks that he would've helped with "sensitive" care of his daughter.

And it is true that JB would yell for anyone that was closest to wipe her. At her age, I have to wonder why that was not addressed during talks about sensitive issues with Dr. Beuf. We know there was at least one conversation about touching. The other thing that strikes me was reading the interview Patsy did in June of 1998 with Trip DeMuth and washing hands and bathing. She didn't really have a clue if JB had washed her hands before going to the White's, or if anyone had asked her / told her to wash her hands before dinner that night. That's a parent's responsibility, not the people in whose house you are a guest. They seemed perfectly fine with other people taking care of their kids' needs. They just come across as lazy parents who didn't want to be bothered.
Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand a mother allowing any man, especially non-family to take care of their daughter's bathroom issues. Much less after she had been dressed up in a very adult and sexualized way in public.

Where was the protection? PR was more concerned about trophies and creating a mini-me. imo

I am reminded of JR saying he failed to protect his daughter.
 
  • #1,345
I think the Ramseys were very socially dependent.

I'm always struck by how they treated their inner group of friends more like family than friends.

Maybe some people do that but it seems foreign to me. Over the years, I've briefly entertained the uncomfortable idea that perhaps their friends were closer than most friends are--maybe like swingers?
I'm not overly familiar with their set of friends. Do you know if the women in this social group tended toward arm candy types that consider their looks and sexual attractiveness to be their careers? Even if not swingers, many women who depend solely on their husbands' station and wealth to maintain their lifestyle and basic needs can have somewhat odd attitudes about sexual matters, especially since sexuality was a primary way they secured their marriages.

Also, as to their social set being more like family than friends, is it possible that their friends protectively rallied around PR because of her cancer and treatment? I've seen this happen. Supportive friends often step in to care for children more often and also can become privy to the emotional angsts of friends going through cancer journeys, drawing them.closer.

JR's odd and incorrect statements as to the bikes, the broken window, etc, could be explained by simple narcissistic dominant tendencies, always in charge, always right, always knowing what's best, etc and it just not being in his capacity to admit he doesn't know these answers. He might even have felt upstaged if such questions were directed to PR. And, of course, if PR & JR were engaged in a very contentious fight after they came home and through the long murderous night, they may have wanted friends around to break the ice between them that would have been more obvious to le without them being surrounded by the buzz of others. I'm surprised le allowed it at all since it jeopardized JBR's life.
 
  • #1,346
THE RANSOM LETTER

The two gentlemen watching over your daughter ?

Two footprints were found in the wine cellar of the Ramsey home where JonBenét Ramsey was murdered?
 
  • #1,347
Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand a mother allowing any man, especially non-family to take care of their daughter's bathroom issues. Much less after she had been dressed up in a very adult and sexualized way in public.

Where was the protection? PR was more concerned about trophies and creating a mini-me. imo

I am reminded of JR saying he failed to protect his

Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand a mother allowing any man, especially non-family to take care of their daughter's bathroom issues. Much less after she had been dressed up in a very adult and sexualized way in public.

Where was the protection? PR was more concerned about trophies and creating a mini-me. imo

I am reminded of JR saying he failed to protect his daughter.
Fleet Whites kids have done just fine. Both graduated from Navel Academy in Annapolis which not only requires the highest level of leadership skills, discipline, intelligence and American grit, but also a Congressional appointment. Both are officers in the United States Navy serving our country.

For whatever reason, there is currently a concerted, widespread campaign to smear the name of Fleet White. It is spanning social media. His family has been put through incredible legal challenges because he refuses to accept the defamations thrown at him, as well as the corrupt misdeeds he and his family have endured in Boulder.

IMO Fleet and Pricilla White, his daughter Daphne his son Fleet White III, have proven by their actions and words, to be in full possession of the highest moral standard.

Just know that Fleet White unsuccessfully sued to have his testimony to the Grand Jury be made public. He wants his testimony to be heard.
MOO
 
  • #1,348
Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand a mother allowing any man, especially non-family to take care of their daughter's bathroom issues. Much less after she had been dressed up in a very adult and sexualized way in public.

Where was the protection? PR was more concerned about trophies and creating a mini-me. imo

I am reminded of JR saying he failed to protect his daughter.
Maybe Fleet White was the most normal, safe man in the room…
Are the circumstances surrounding these episodes known?
Fleet Whites daughter was the same age as JB and her best friend..,
MOO
 
  • #1,349
Fleet Whites kids have done just fine. Both graduated from Navel Academy in Annapolis which not only requires the highest level of leadership skills, discipline, intelligence and American grit, but also a Congressional appointment. Both are officers in the United States Navy serving our country.

For whatever reason, there is currently a concerted, widespread campaign to smear the name of Fleet White. It is spanning social media. His family has been put through incredible legal challenges because he refuses to accept the defamations thrown at him, as well as the corrupt misdeeds he and his family have endured in Boulder.

IMO Fleet and Pricilla White, his daughter Daphne his son Fleet White III, have proven by their actions and words, to be in full possession of the highest moral standard.

Just know that Fleet White unsuccessfully sued to have his testimony to the Grand Jury be made public. He wants his testimony to be heard.
MOO
Agree. 100%. Fleet and Priscilla were / are good people who have suffered a lot as a result of what happened. They were good friends. I think it’s a testament to their character how well their kids have done, what they’ve accomplished and who they are. And I think this renewed suspicion about, and negativity towards Fleet is so unwarranted. The Whites were cleared a long time ago.
 
  • #1,350
Agree. 100%. Fleet and Priscilla were / are good people who have suffered a lot as a result of what happened. They were good friends. I think it’s a testament to their character how well their kids have done, what they’ve accomplished and who they are. And I think this renewed suspicion about, and negativity towards Fleet is so unwarranted. The Whites were cleared a long time ago.
I never suspected Whites...but did question PR's "mothering" skills.
 
  • #1,351
Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand a mother allowing any man, especially non-family to take care of their daughter's bathroom issues. Much less after she had been dressed up in a very adult and sexualized way in public.

Where was the protection? PR was more concerned about trophies and creating a mini-me. imo

I am reminded of JR saying he failed to protect his she had been dressed up in a very adult and sexualuzed way in public" brought to mind more of what i learned in my social work years.

It's more likely that she gave free access of JBR to men precisely *because* she sexualized her at such a young age. Sexualizing a young child is turning them into bait. I believe PR had herself been both sexually abused *and* raised to be a "trophy" wife rather than to develop her other abilities that could have allowed her to not have to depend on a man for sustenance in life. Her whole perspective toward life was getting and keeping the attention of men and then getting the attention of that ONE man who would support her in her chosen lifestyle. We don't know, but she may even have been slyly coquettish with men in general, as trophy wives sometimes are, before her cancer and treatment took her best presentation away. Its always good to "keep your resume fresh", ya know?

When PR lost her best looks & sexuality along with it, she may have transfered that "need to attract male attention" over to her daughter, and been damn proud of it whenever JBR elicited that kind of response from men. That's exactly what training her to "fawn for the judges" was for. I'm going to be brutally honest here: the blonded hair, the makeup, the pouty lips, the clothing, whatever the age is, it's all about the "fuckability" ratings, even if men think "some day" that's going to be a nice piece. PR didn't really have an issue with sexual abuse, or even regard it as abuse, as in those words "it was only a little bit..." Her mom and the family and regional culture she was raised in didn't really feel sexual abuse was particularly damaging for children and if it raised a young girls " f rating" by making her have overly sexualized feelings at an inappropriate age then yay for high ratings, right? That means (in their way of thinking) that her prospects for a future career marriage go up. It worked for PR, it worked for entire cultures of girls and women, and PR was working hard at making her little mini me girl a success. What's a little sa along the way if it gives her a great life in a future career marriage.

It's hard to understand how pervasive this thinking is if you were not raised in such a culture. The southern states of the US have been a fertile breeding ground of this forever it seems.
 
  • #1,352
I never suspected Whites...but did question PR's "mothering" skills.
Me too. I think she was more into the idea of being a mother, rather than actually mothering.
 
  • #1,353
It's more likely that she gave free access of JBR to men precisely *because* she sexualized her at such a young age. Sexualizing a young child is turning them into bait. I believe PR had herself been both sexually abused *and* raised to be a "trophy" wife rather than to develop her other abilities that could have allowed her to not have to depend on a man for sustenance in life. Her whole perspective toward life was getting and keeping the attention of men and then getting the attention of that ONE man who would support her in her chosen lifestyle. We don't know, but she may even have been slyly coquettish with men in general, as trophy wives sometimes are, before her cancer and treatment took her best presentation away. Its always good to "keep your resume fresh", ya know?

When PR lost her best looks & sexuality along with it, she may have transfered that "need to attract male attention" over to her daughter, and been damn proud of it whenever JBR elicited that kind of response from men. That's exactly what training her to "fawn for the judges" was for. I'm going to be brutally honest here: the blonded hair, the makeup, the pouty lips, the clothing, whatever the age is, it's all about the "fuckability" ratings, even if men think "some day" that's going to be a nice piece. PR didn't really have an issue with sexual abuse, or even regard it as abuse, as in those words "it was only a little bit..." Her mom and the family and regional culture she was raised in didn't really feel sexual abuse was particularly damaging for children and if it raised a young girls " f rating" by making her have overly sexualized feelings at an inappropriate age then yay for high ratings, right? That means (in their way of thinking) that her prospects for a future career marriage go up. It worked for PR, it worked for entire cultures of girls and women, and PR was working hard at making her little mini me girl a success. What's a little sa along the way if it gives her a great life in a future career marriage.

It's hard to understand how pervasive this thinking is if you were not raised in such a culture. The southern states of the US have been a fertile breeding ground of this forever it seems.
Food for thought...
 
  • #1,354
But then after calling the police they did everything possible that went against what they were instructed not to do. It's very easy to make excuses for them. As we say at work in regards to parenting " not taking action, is an action"
It is not my intent to make excuses for them but from my understanding of the RN they already risked condemning their daughter to an excruciating death by beheading when they called 911. They were warned that the two men watching over her disliked John to the point they would have no problem executing their daughter. In the hypothetical that the abduction was real, what did JR and PR think would happen when the police car pulled up and it is reported back to JBR’s abductors by their spies? Worse, PR didn’t even pass that warning off to LE before she hung up on 911. It could have helped them out and their daughter (which is why I think it is valid that people view their behavior as suspicious or question their motives)

What about beforehand when they brought Burke over to the Stines? It was said in the note that they didn’t even want them talking to a stray dog, so it is doubtful that interacting their neighbors and friends would be okay under this hypothetical?

Of course, another plausible theory is that PR and RR were aware of the contradictions between their decisions and risks to JBR according to RN but perhaps they were apathetic to all of it because they already knew JBR had been murdered and this was part of the cover-up.

According to Det. Thomas, Ofc French and Ofc. Reichenbach, the first two responders on scene, found the Ramsey parents suspicious and something “not right” about the case, but still determine a kidnapping had occurred and call for more officers, a victims rights advocate and scene. If the cat wasn’t out of the bag before, it is by the time the requested team members show up. How likely was it then that at this moment, under this RN-based abductor hypothetical presented by J and PR, that it was decided that JBR’s life was forfeited and she would be murdered in cold blood. The writer of the supposed RN made it very clear that above all they did not want to get caught, that they knew counter measures and locations to thwart LE intervening and should JR betray them his daughter would be made to suffer. Knowing that the Ramseys were talking to the cops probably set them off a lot more than the friends trickling in afterwards and would probably serve as a bigger motivator should they choose to murder their daughter.

Not that it makes any of this okay. They were right, in my opinion, to call for help from their local police department. Nonetheless the family friends and priest of the Ramseys should have been escorted out of the house to preserve the integrity of any evidence suggest they maybe followed up with them in their homes or the PD office later if they feel like they have something important or some insight they would like to share. Then again, with the exception of investigators, staff members and the Ramseys themselves, the whole house should have been locked down as it was a potential scene considering they didnt know when or where JBR was or if she ever even left the house in the likelihood she was killed by one or both of her parents, as theorized by Arndt and French.

French should have checked the wine seller more thoroughly, just like the very room and crawl space in the residence. He could have just borrowed his partners flashlight or borrow one of the homeowners instead of turning his back to it. Had he did, he might have found JBR earlier and preserved the crime scene better.

I was not saying "not" to call LE
Sorry @ShadyLady but I wasn’t saying you were. I brought that up their decision to call 911 because it was at that point that the writer’s tone grows more hostile and aggressive particularly in how they threaten to will kill JBR. It seemed like a trigger for them since they even threatened to behead her, a child. Who does that? MOO but if one or more people kidnapped her and removed her from their house, then PR and JR contacting the police could have served as the biggest risk or threat to their daughter bc she would be harmed due to their noncompliance. Furthermore, If PR or JR did write this RN, I can’t even imagine how they could even pretend it wasn’t hoax or put into words the threat of inflicting such brutality against their own flesh and blood. Especially not as she laid deceased downstairs after being violated sexually and physically before being tortured to death with a garrote wrapped around her neck.

I think the use of both a garrote and the threat about being beheaded is notable too bc they both aim to end the life of someone by aiming at their neck. JMO
 
Last edited:
  • #1,355
It's more likely that she gave free access of JBR to men precisely *because* she sexualized her at such a young age. Sexualizing a young child is turning them into bait. I believe PR had herself been both sexually abused *and* raised to be a "trophy" wife rather than to develop her other abilities that could have allowed her to not have to depend on a man for sustenance in life. Her whole perspective toward life was getting and keeping the attention of men and then getting the attention of that ONE man who would support her in her chosen lifestyle. We don't know, but she may even have been slyly coquettish with men in general, as trophy wives sometimes are, before her cancer and treatment took her best presentation away. Its always good to "keep your resume fresh", ya know?

When PR lost her best looks & sexuality along with it, she may have transfered that "need to attract male attention" over to her daughter, and been damn proud of it whenever JBR elicited that kind of response from men. That's exactly what training her to "fawn for the judges" was for. I'm going to be brutally honest here: the blonded hair, the makeup, the pouty lips, the clothing, whatever the age is, it's all about the "fuckability" ratings, even if men think "some day" that's going to be a nice piece. PR didn't really have an issue with sexual abuse, or even regard it as abuse, as in those words "it was only a little bit..." Her mom and the family and regional culture she was raised in didn't really feel sexual abuse was particularly damaging for children and if it raised a young girls " f rating" by making her have overly sexualized feelings at an inappropriate age then yay for high ratings, right? That means (in their way of thinking) that her prospects for a future career marriage go up. It worked for PR, it worked for entire cultures of girls and women, and PR was working hard at making her little mini me girl a success. What's a little sa along the way if it gives her a great life in a future career marriage.

It's hard to understand how pervasive this thinking is if you were not raised in such a culture. The southern states of the US have been a fertile breeding ground of this forever it seems.
Wow. You sure you're on the right forum? this isn't Jezebel.com... but I'm sure they'd be glad to post it there
 
  • #1,356
  • #1,357
Agree. 100%. Fleet and Priscilla were / are good people who have suffered a lot as a result of what happened. They were good friends. I think it’s a testament to their character how well their kids have done, what they’ve accomplished and who they are. And I think this renewed suspicion about, and negativity towards Fleet is so unwarranted. The Whites were cleared a long time ago.
Do you think the Ramseys were behind the Krebbs smear campaign?
 
  • #1,358
Fleet Whites kids have done just fine. Both graduated from Navel Academy in Annapolis which not only requires the highest level of leadership skills, discipline, intelligence and American grit, but also a Congressional appointment. Both are officers in the United States Navy serving our country.

For whatever reason, there is currently a concerted, widespread campaign to smear the name of Fleet White. It is spanning social media. His family has been put through incredible legal challenges because he refuses to accept the defamations thrown at him, as well as the corrupt misdeeds he and his family have endured in Boulder.

IMO Fleet and Pricilla White, his daughter Daphne his son Fleet White III, have proven by their actions and words, to be in full possession of the highest moral standard.

Just know that Fleet White unsuccessfully sued to have his testimony to the Grand Jury be made public. He wants his testimony to be heard.
MOO
I too am shocked at the allegations, gossip and innuendo directed at FW.
It seems lately that folks will say almost anything with no foundation in fact or evidence. I’ve also seen speculation about Linda HP, Doug Stine and Santa based on rumours, it’s irresponsible and highly unfair.
IMHO
 
  • #1,359
I too am shocked at the allegations, gossip and innuendo directed at FW.
It seems lately that folks will say almost anything with no foundation in fact or evidence. I’ve also seen speculation about Linda HP, Doug Stine and Santa based on rumours, it’s irresponsible and highly unfair.
IMHO
I've seen several JR interviews where he is still throwing little bombs at FW.
When asked about his Navel back ground and sailing skills, he answers that FW was the expert sailor. No JR, you were asked about YOUR background not FWs. He really is a snake to keep throwing shade on him.
And yes, the list of people he and PR threw a cloud of suspicion over without ever publicly clearing them shows his level of integrity. He has done nothing but scorn the public for unfairly accusing him and Patsy and then turned around and threw an umbrella of suspicion over a list of people publicly.
I loved how both FWs children made it known that they were questioned by the Grand Jury. As in, we had something to say.
 
  • #1,360
I've seen several JR interviews where he is still throwing little bombs at FW.
When asked about his Navel back ground and sailing skills, he answers that FW was the expert sailor. No JR, you were asked about YOUR background not FWs. He really is a snake to keep throwing shade on him.
And yes, the list of people he and PR threw a cloud of suspicion over without ever publicly clearing them shows his level of integrity. He has done nothing but scorn the public for unfairly accusing him and Patsy and then turned around and threw an umbrella of suspicion over a list of people publicly.
I loved how both FWs children made it known that they were questioned by the Grand Jury. As in, we had something to say.
Bbm.
I feel this is important.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
62
Guests online
1,343
Total visitors
1,405

Forum statistics

Threads
632,471
Messages
18,627,214
Members
243,163
Latest member
420Nana
Back
Top