Feces :/

[prima.facie]

I know each family is different, and people have personal preferences, but we've passed up houses that had the master suite on a different floor from where my kids room would be. JMO

I don't have issue w/ mine being on a different floor because..........
I kept a baby monitor in her room until she was like 8 lol :fence: a bit ridiculous I know, but it made me feel better!

 

[Tawny]

I don't have issue w/ mine being on a different floor because..........
I kept a baby monitor in her room until she was like 8 lol :fence: a bit ridiculous I know, but it made me feel better!

LOL! We are on the same floor as her room and had a video monitor until it died and she was old enough to holler for us :floorlaugh:

Speaking of my kid, she is the type of kid who won't really get out of bed without one of us there. She isn't fearful or anything, I think she just thinks she'll get in trouble. I have no idea where that comes from, but pageantmom's post made me think of it. She's 4 and is better about it now, if she has to go potty, she will get up and go. She's also a very clean child, she gets upset if she has an accident.

 

[Mendara]

Reading all of this again, breaks my heart and sends me back into that lonely thought that the Ramseys were one really disturbed family. PR was absolutely in my eyes the woman who wanted to be "the perfect picture of a mother" and failed terribly at it because she didn't know her children, they seemed to live in a big house, but under that roof it was soiled down to the underwear and the kids were neglected both emmotianally and physically. I remember most of PR quotes were just ridiculous and I feel sad reading that it was hard for that abuse inspector to get a sense of who JBR was.

Patsy was a dirty woman, she didn't clean, nor clean her children (My opinion). IMO she really was all show and nothing inside her. She didn't want anyone to see imperfections but really didn't pay too much attention to it beneath the surface.

Calling people over to your house in the middle of a serious emergency was to me the first sign of her lunecy.

JBR was not a well child. IMO I can't imagine what happened in that house.

I have three kids and I can tell you I know what is in their dresser drawer and it is not soiled underpants, if one of them was wetting his bed every single day I would be so concerned. I also would know if a poop the size of grapefruit was in my daughter's bed, or is poop was smeared on her chocolates (scratch that there wouldn't be a box of chocolates in her room).

I am not saying I am the perfect mother, but I sure as heck would know and be aware of all these things, enough to clean it up, enough to ask my doctor questions. I would feed my daughter at a party and not assume she ate. I would not allow my son out of my sight if his sister was kidnapped!

MO

 

[borndem]

Partial post by Mendara:

Reading all of this again, breaks my heart and sends me back into that lonely thought that the Ramseys were one really disturbed family. PR was absolutely in my eyes the woman who wanted to be "the perfect picture of a mother" and failed terribly at it because she didn't know her children, they seemed to live in a big house, but under that roof it was soiled down to the underwear and the kids were neglected both emmotianally and physically. I remember most of PR quotes were just ridiculous and I feel sad reading that it was hard for that abuse inspector to get a sense of who JBR was.

Good post, Mendara... It makes me wonder how much attention PR got from her mother while she was growing up. Were they close and did her mother really get to know the child who was Patsy? Perhaps PR had a role-model who lacked those skills. Or she had a narcissistic personality. Or a sociopathic one.

And to comment on earlier posts here about children's bedrooms and the location of the master.... We would have never been that far away from our son (only child), either. At least not until he was older, and that is what we did. And if we had had a boy & a girl, we would have never kept them on one floor and us on another... Kids do get tempted, especially if their friends with siblings talk about (with some exaggeration, I'm sure) playing doctor or "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours," etc., etc. Why tempt fate? Innocent curiosity is very normal but it may not end that way...

And that, too, goes back to knowing your children...

 

[pageantmom]

Reading all of this again, breaks my heart and sends me back into that lonely thought that the Ramseys were one really disturbed family. PR was absolutely in my eyes the woman who wanted to be "the perfect picture of a mother" and failed terribly at it because she didn't know her children, they seemed to live in a big house, but under that roof it was soiled down to the underwear and the kids were neglected both emmotianally and physically. I remember most of PR quotes were just ridiculous and I feel sad reading that it was hard for that abuse inspector to get a sense of who JBR was.

Patsy was a dirty woman, she didn't clean, nor clean her children (My opinion). IMO she really was all show and nothing inside her. She didn't want anyone to see imperfections but really didn't pay too much attention to it beneath the surface.

Calling people over to your house in the middle of a serious emergency was to me the first sign of her lunecy.

JBR was not a well child. IMO I can't imagine what happened in that house.

I have three kids and I can tell you I know what is in their dresser drawer and it is not soiled underpants, if one of them was wetting his bed every single day I would be so concerned. I also would know if a poop the size of grapefruit was in my daughter's bed, or is poop was smeared on her chocolates (scratch that there wouldn't be a box of chocolates in her room).

I am not saying I am the perfect mother, but I sure as heck would know and be aware of all these things, enough to clean it up, enough to ask my doctor questions. I would feed my daughter at a party and not assume she ate. I would not allow my son out of my sight if his sister was kidnapped!

MO

I'm only a few years older than JonBenet but I feel motherly instinct toward her anyway...I suppose because even though we're close in age, I am an adult now looking at her as being a small child. And in fact she will be a small child forever. As an adult now and a mom I feel so sad for her, all of this about how dysfunctional her short life was and how her mother just cared about everything being presentable to the public yet sweeping under the rug the things that mattered- a child with constant accidents, possible abuse, mother who doesn't know when her children ate, can't tell you when they've bathed...the Ramsey children had everything in the world and yet they were so neglected...you just wanna go back in time and grab her up and hug her and never let go. :tears:

 

[Tawny]

I'm only a few years older than JonBenet but I feel motherly instinct toward her anyway...I suppose because even though we're close in age, I am an adult now looking at her as being a small child. And in fact she will be a small child forever. As an adult now and a mom I feel so sad for her, all of this about how dysfunctional her short life was and how her mother just cared about everything being presentable to the public yet sweeping under the rug the things that mattered- a child with constant accidents, possible abuse, mother who doesn't know when her children ate, can't tell you when they've bathed...the Ramsey children had everything in the world and yet they were so neglected...you just wanna go back in time and grab her up and hug her and never let go. :tears:

My kid is always super confused as to why I'm squishing her up in a hug so tight after I spend time reading about JonBenet.

"Mommyyyyyy too tiiiiiiight!" <3

 

[reintarnation]

she may have been changing them once dirtied and putting them back into her drawer so nobody would find out.

PR may have given her laxatives or she just had serious bowel issues due to stress/anxiety/poor eating etc etc.



that poor child

To your point about the dirty underwear, PF, and also txsvicki's to which you replied...

I have a five-year-old son and almost every pair of his underwear has poo stains ("skid marks") because he struggled with proper wiping. For awhile we were buying new packs of underwear on a very regular basis. To resolve it, we would have him call to us when he had a BM so we could coach him on how to do it properly (usually we didn't wipe him, just instructed him). The bigger issue we had, despite our efforts, was that at day care and preschool they never checked or noticed since he was otherwise fully potty trained. So he'd go there in clean undies and come home with stains. I didn't address it with the day care staff because I didn't want my son to be embarrassed or have them wiping him at that age.

Additionally, our son still wets the bed from time to time. There was a two-week span when I went back to work after having our second child when he (four-years-old a the time) wet the bed almost nightly, and I attributed that to him feeding off of my stress and experiencing his own with all the recent changes in our lives. Otherwise when he does it, he says that he woke up that way, so I figure that his body doesn't always wake him when he has the urge and he will get there in his own time.

As a parent, it's hard not to get frustrated over toileting issues like these. I do my best to be sympathetic and supportive instead of punitive, but no one's perfect. I'm sure I've inadvertently made him feel ashamed about it, and the thought of that makes me incredibly sad. It sounds to me like PR was not as tolerant. There were steps she could have taken to help matters but, selfishly, she did not. The books she had worry me that this issue was looming large for PR, that she saw it as JBR's issue solely (as opposed to one that she contributed to), and it sharply contrasted with the picture-perfect public image of JBR that PR worked so hard to project. Then again, there are many aspects of this case that are equally troubling.

I recognize that toileting issues at JBR's age can have many different causes, including sexual abuse, but toileting issues are also a normal part of potty training and childhood development. The parents' handling of them has a tremendous impact on potty training success and the child's psychological well-being. If JBR was severely punished for accidents, that may have prolonged and intensified the otherwise typical toileting issues she experienced.

The following article is outdated (1993), but offers valuable insight into child abuse stemming from toileting issues (warning: very sad read):
http://articles.philly.com/1993-11-...ses-toilet-training-accidents-toilet-training

After reviewing so much evidence in this case, the only theory I have found to fit all of the otherwise confounding puzzle pieces together is that JBR had an accident that night, PR accidentally murdered her, and then staged a cover-up with evidence that pointed away from their house, their family, and her motive. I believe that PR had been physically abusing JBR prior to that night, both by hitting and cleaning her violently. The violent cleaning would be inside her vagina with a wipe and/or douching, both of which would explain the vaginal trauma that night and in prior incidents, the recurring vaginitis, and the pediatrician's interest in JBR's sexual development. Further, the recurring vaginal trauma and the incident on the night of JBR's murder were described as not likely to be sexually gratifying and also not torturous, which has always been an issue for me when sexual abuse is discussed as a motive.

A little more on the doctor visits, which is also discussed in this thread: Although it's common for mothers to accompany their children to doctor visits, it's not common to be at the pediatrician 33 times in three years for reasons including vaginal infections and facial bruising/abrasions. If PR was the abuser, she would insist on accompanying JBR so that she could hide the visits and treatments from JR, plus she could be there to explain her version of events to the doctor. It also didn't seem like PR was particularly concerned about the excessive doctor visits or the reasons for them, which makes sense only if PR knew the true cause.

Much of this is pure speculation on my part, but again, so far PDI is the only theory that makes all of this mess make sense to me. I have just begun reading Kolar's book and am interested to learn his perspective on BDI, and I'm open to alternative explanations as well.

Unfortunately I don't believe that we will ever know what happened with 100% certainty, but by reviewing the evidence, seeing how that evidence fits in to different theories (or doesn't), and sharing our findings, I think we can at least expose the person(s) responsible for the record. I hope that someday, in the absence of the ability to prosecute, the BPD or DA can, without political or financial influence, at least issue a statement of their professional opinion with regard to every last piece of evidence uncovered in this case...but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I wonder if PR gave JB enemas before pagents so there wouldn't be any accidents. This could account for screams from JB when PR took her in the bathroom for about 45 minutes occasionally. I am sure am enema would be miserable for JB and she would voice her anger. IRMI mentiones pagent scrubs on page 4. As I am rereading the books I will post the other mention of the lengthy bathroom visits with PR when I come across it.

I wonder if JB got an enema on Christmas Day in preparation for the plane ride to Charlevoix and the family get together. PR wouldn't want any accidents then. MAybe that is why JB didn't feel well Christmas Day, After an enema... JUst part of the preparation for the trip along with PR dying her hair.

Please do not copy this post to any other site.

 

[reintarnation]

Thanks - looking forward to reading that. I was not aware of PR spending unusually long periods of time with JBR in the bathroom.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

There is a childhood malady called encopresis that some children suffer from. This starts out with the child suffering from constipation and the lower bowel itself becomes stretched. Because of constipation, having a bowel movement becomes difficult and painful for the child. Then the child begins to "ignore the urge", which only makes things worse. Often, the constipated child will soil his underwear with some amount of liquid "overflow" which has made its way past the large amount of backed up stool.

This type of thing could account for there being a whole lot of pairs of underpants with stains. (I am assuming these were laundered underpants that had obvious staining on them, not "freshly soiled" underpants.) Although, I will say that if I had enough money to be flying around in a private jet, I'd be buying new underpants for my child by the case rather than having her wear poop stained undies! And there are laundry treatment sprays out there that are very effective on most every type of stain of human origin.

If JBR had encopresis I would think the pediatrician who saw her so much would have known it. But wasn't there something way back when about the Ramsey parents not wanting the police investigators to have full access to JBR's medical records? I cannot recall how that issue was resolved.

As for treatment of encopresis, daily doses of laxative are given to the child - sometimes for a year or more. Attention to diet and fluids is stressed. Glycerine suppositories may be used to get things started. Enemas should not be needed on any kind of a regular basis and would be given unless really, really needed and usually with the treating physician's knowledge and approval. In addition, both parents and child engage in an educational program regarding the disorder, as it is quite stressful on everyone when a child develops this.

 

[cattlekate]

There is a childhood malady called encopresis that some children suffer from. This starts out with the child suffering from constipation and the lower bowel itself becomes stretched. Because of constipation, having a bowel movement becomes difficult and painful for the child. Then the child begins to "ignore the urge", which only makes things worse. Often, the constipated child will soil his underwear with some amount of liquid "overflow" which has made its way past the large amount of backed up stool.

This type of thing could account for there being a whole lot of pairs of underpants with stains. (I am assuming these were laundered underpants that had obvious staining on them, not "freshly soiled" underpants.) Although, I will say that if I had enough money to be flying around in a private jet, I'd be buying new underpants for my child by the case rather than having her wear poop stained undies! And there are laundry treatment sprays out there that are very effective on most every type of stain of human origin.

.

Snipped for brevity.

Great post. This not-uncommon malady also causes bed wetting as the bladder is so squished. It also causes the child to poop in their underwear at unplanned times, such as out playing when the exercise gets everything going. And some kids pick at themselves to try to pull the poop out and then maybe get some on their clothes or a wall around the tissue holder.

The child doesn't have to have any other problems like developmental issues or abuse for this to occur - it just happens.

It could explain a lot of things if this condition was noted by JBR's or BR's physicians.

 

[dgfred]

I hate to admit it these days (especially to you nice people) but I was a very mean older brother. I threw things at my sister, hit her, smashed her with snowballs, tormented her... and actually put soap on her toothbrush one time. Why? there was no reason. Most of it was done by age 11 or so.

We love, respect, and help each other now... but back then something mean could happen to her just about any day. I am ashamed of my behavior but I guess it was mostly jealousy or something. I still an not really sure why.

I would bet that the crap smearing was done by BR... if only for just being a hateful/mean/jealous brother.

 

[Nola1140]

I think the fact that this book is the first we heard of it means more than likely the Author is another squirrel just tryin to make a buck. I doubt that it is actually the case at all.

As a matter of fact I remember the feces/ chocolate / boys pJ pants thing from waaaaay back . I can't remember specifically where I read that , but I'm pretty sure it was a topic of discussion on several talk shows , too.

When I saw it in this feed I was like , riiiiiiggt I remember that .

I'm more convinced now than ever that BDI and the classic desperate cover up , pretty crazy that the Guarrat was what actually killed her ... And the paint brush handle , like why on earth would a pedo who broke in do that ?? Only a person who was trying to make it LOOK like a sex assault would do it .

The horror

 

[reintarnation]

I hate to admit it these days (especially to you nice people) but I was a very mean older brother. I threw things at my sister, hit her, smashed her with snowballs, tormented her... and actually put soap on her toothbrush one time. Why? there was no reason. Most of it was done by age 11 or so.

We love, respect, and help each other now... but back then something mean could happen to her just about any day. I am ashamed of my behavior but I guess it was mostly jealousy or something. I still an not really sure why.

I would bet that the crap smearing was done by BR... if only for just being a hateful/mean/jealous brother.

Thanks for sharing, dgfred! My brother is six years older than me, and we squabbled terribly as well. One time he locked me in the bathroom all day when my parents were gone. Another time he chased me around the house with a knife. A few times he picked me up by the collar of my shirt to the point I was choking. He constantly smacked, punched, and pushed me. He teased me mercilessly. Once he pushed me into our big television set hard enough that I bled and I had to get stitches. And yet another time he held me underwater so long I thought I was going to drown.

Today things are obviously way different, and I don't resent him for any of it. We grew up in a troubled home - mom did a few years in jail for check forgery, dad was an alcoholic, and both parents fought constantly and viciously until they divorced when I was 12. My dad wasn't overly or sadistically abusive, but he did 'whip' my brother with the belt and smack him, but never did any of that to me (these were different times). Looking back, I think his treatment of me was related to how he was internalizing our situation. He was older and processed it differently than I did, and he was a much more reserved person (keeps things inside and doesn't talk about his feelings).

Makes me wonder what may have been happening between BR and JBR. Could have been normal sibling stuff, or something worse. The feces, though...I gotta say, that indicates some deeper problems IMO.

 

[Winterchild87]

Had anyone considered that when someone passes away, their body expels urine and faeces automatically? Could that explain the wet bed and long john stains... and perhaps some of the faeces (was the large amount found in her bed after this or a previous occasion?). It could also explain why she had been wiped-- I'm sure the parents didn't want her being discovered having soiled herself- so someone found clean underwear (given a lot of that in the dresser drawer was said to have been soiled, it makes sense that they'd get some from a new package because it was clean; they probably thought it would throw suspicion off them as well when it became apparent they were too large for her-- oh the "intruder" must have brought them not knowing her size).

I agree that the normal child response to jealousy over candy is to sneak them or steal them and run off- I used to sneak into my sister's room and look for sweets she had hidden around the room and sneak some. She would come and ask me for some and when I said no, she would try to take one and run away with it... smearing excrement on it would never have even crossed my mind as a child-- I was very germ phobic and would make extra sure my hands were washed properly! The act of smearing is a very calculated, revolting and deviant act; some severe psychological issues in that.

 

[sgrump]

There is a childhood malady called encopresis that some children suffer from. This starts out with the child suffering from constipation and the lower bowel itself becomes stretched. Because of constipation, having a bowel movement becomes difficult and painful for the child. Then the child begins to "ignore the urge", which only makes things worse. Often, the constipated child will soil his underwear with some amount of liquid "overflow" which has made its way past the large amount of backed up stool.

This type of thing could account for there being a whole lot of pairs of underpants with stains. (I am assuming these were laundered underpants that had obvious staining on them, not "freshly soiled" underpants.) Although, I will say that if I had enough money to be flying around in a private jet, I'd be buying new underpants for my child by the case rather than having her wear poop stained undies! And there are laundry treatment sprays out there that are very effective on most every type of stain of human origin.

If JBR had encopresis I would think the pediatrician who saw her so much would have known it. But wasn't there something way back when about the Ramsey parents not wanting the police investigators to have full access to JBR's medical records? I cannot recall how that issue was resolved.

There are 2 types of encopresis, voluntary as you have described and involuntary with an emotional psychological etiology. Sexual molestation has been associated with the involuntary type. It's in raw understanding it's s child screaming for help with issues they can't understand. Considering the family history of both kids having peculiar toileting behavior the involuntary is more likely especially considering one is dead with an autopsy that showed physical changes associated with chronic molestation.

 

[reintarnation]

Had anyone considered that when someone passes away, their body expels urine and faeces automatically? Could that explain the wet bed and long john stains... and perhaps some of the faeces (was the large amount found in her bed after this or a previous occasion?). It could also explain why she had been wiped-- I'm sure the parents didn't want her being discovered having soiled herself- so someone found clean underwear (given a lot of that in the dresser drawer was said to have been soiled, it makes sense that they'd get some from a new package because it was clean; they probably thought it would throw suspicion off them as well when it became apparent they were too large for her-- oh the "intruder" must have brought them not knowing her size).

Good insights, Winterchild87!

That has been considered, and in fact the underwear JBR was wearing when her body was found contained urine that her body expelled upon death. So the panties were only clean in the sense that they had never before been worn and were not laundered. So between that and the wiping/cleaning noted in the autopsy report, it is not a far stretch to surmise that JBR's panties were changed and that evidence of something to do with that area (blood, urine, feces, etc.) was intentionally removed from the scene.

The feces found in her bed and on the walls was reported by their housekeeper, who also mentioned that PR would already have JBR's soiled bed linens in the wash before she got there if an accident occurred overnight. JBR's bedwetting was a frequent enough occurrence that her mattress had plastic wrap on it. The fecal smearing in JBR's candy box was discovered by LE, although I'm not certain if it was ever tested, and there is much speculation whether those chocolates were a gift from Christmas Day or some time before. My hunch is that LE knows the answers, but this is part of the case file evidence that hasn't leaked, and perhaps some of what Kolar redacted from the Theory of Prosecution in his book that made him feel so strongly that BDI.

I have since shifted more toward BDI after reading Kolar's book in its entirety and watching the new CBS and Dr. Phil specials. However, the toileting training issues in this family still bother me. If it wasn't toileting issues that caused this murder, then there was certainly something going on in that house creating those toileting issues. They are just not normal, and I think that keeping the children's medical records sealed has something to do with this. I know every child is different and there may be legitimate medical issues at play, so I'm not passing judgment on all kids who struggle with potty training. But I can't shake the feeling that there's something more to this.

PR and JR insist JBR fell asleep on the car ride home, JR carried her up to bed, PR changed her out of her black pants and into the long johns (did not change panties), and that was the last they ever saw their daughter alive.

But then there's these excerpts from Patsy's April 1997 interview:

TT: And just on this, just a little bit, JonBenet wet the bed every once and awhile?
PR: Yeah.
TT: About how often would that occur?
PR: Oh, maybe once a week or something.
TT: Ok.
PR: If I just didn&#8217;t take her to the potty and make her go to the potty before bedtime, she very likely would wet the bed.
TT: Ok. You have any idea about, has this been going on for how long? Any time that she broken and didn&#8217;t have any bed wetting problems and then started back up or anything like that.
PR: No, no, she just, I mean I&#8217;ve had her in pull-ups until very recently. I kind of thought it might be better, I mean pull-ups and those pamper things are so absorbent, that you can&#8217;t you know, the child can&#8217;t feel if they&#8217;re wet or not. So I thought well it might just be better if she felt wet than being&#8230;
TT: (Inaudible)
PR: Yeah. But she had a lot of dry nights, but she would wet the bed probably once a week.
TT: When she wet the bed, would she come up and tell you guys, or would she just crawl onto the other bed, crawl into Burke&#8217;s spare bed, what was the routine if she actually wet the bed?
PR: Well, ah, sometimes she would get up and get into the other bed or sometimes she really wouldn&#8217;t wake up and until morning when she normally would wake up and maybe she&#8217;d change her nightgown or something and I&#8217;d find her things and pajamas in the bathroom floors and&#8230;
TT: OK. Is this something you guys (inaudible) about at all?
PR: No, cause I mean, all of, Burke wore pull-ups, you know till he was, at night, you know. Till he was fairly old. And Melinda was, we didn&#8217;t even have pull-ups back then, she wet the bed till she was, I mean at least when we were married, she was 8 then. So I didn&#8217;t see anything, and a lot of our friends, I mean, and Matthew use to wear pull-ups, you know, so &#8230;
TT: So, it wasn&#8217;t anything out of the ordinary.
PR: Uh-huh, no.
TT: OK. How did John feel about this, did he have any reason to&#8230;
PR: I don&#8217;t know if he even knew.
TT: OK. This was something that you took care of?
PR: Uh-huh.

IMO, we have here someone trying to normalize what most would consider to be abnormal behavior. Also interesting to me is that PR is the one who takes care of bedwetting cleanup, and she thinks maybe John is not even aware of the problems. If the sequence of events that night touched off with another accident, then PR is incriminating herself here.

Perhaps more importantly, PR says that JBR wet the bed about once a week and would wet the bed if they didn't take her to the bathroom right before bed. So are we to believe that on Christmas night, when they will be leaving extremely early in the morning for Charlevoix, that PR took the likely risk of JBR wetting her bed that night? Something she would have had to clean up when she was so busy with packing and preparing?

At the very least, PR is trying very hard to stick to the story that JBR was asleep the entire time. She and JR (and BR during his interviews when he was a kid) worked very hard to convince us that both of their children (especially JBR) were asleep the entire time. But the evidence they weren't is abundant. So why lie unless to hide evidence of something happening that night that caused JBR's death?

 

[human]

To your point about the dirty underwear, PF, and also txsvicki's to which you replied...

I have a five-year-old son and almost every pair of his underwear has poo stains ("skid marks") because he struggled with proper wiping. For awhile we were buying new packs of underwear on a very regular basis. To resolve it, we would have him call to us when he had a BM so we could coach him on how to do it properly (usually we didn't wipe him, just instructed him). The bigger issue we had, despite our efforts, was that at day care and preschool they never checked or noticed since he was otherwise fully potty trained. So he'd go there in clean undies and come home with stains. I didn't address it with the day care staff because I didn't want my son to be embarrassed or have them wiping him at that age.

Additionally, our son still wets the bed from time to time. There was a two-week span when I went back to work after having our second child when he (four-years-old a the time) wet the bed almost nightly, and I attributed that to him feeding off of my stress and experiencing his own with all the recent changes in our lives. Otherwise when he does it, he says that he woke up that way, so I figure that his body doesn't always wake him when he has the urge and he will get there in his own time.

As a parent, it's hard not to get frustrated over toileting issues like these. I do my best to be sympathetic and supportive instead of punitive, but no one's perfect. I'm sure I've inadvertently made him feel ashamed about it, and the thought of that makes me incredibly sad. It sounds to me like PR was not as tolerant. There were steps she could have taken to help matters but, selfishly, she did not. The books she had worry me that this issue was looming large for PR, that she saw it as JBR's issue solely (as opposed to one that she contributed to), and it sharply contrasted with the picture-perfect public image of JBR that PR worked so hard to project. Then again, there are many aspects of this case that are equally troubling.

I recognize that toileting issues at JBR's age can have many different causes, including sexual abuse, but toileting issues are also a normal part of potty training and childhood development. The parents' handling of them has a tremendous impact on potty training success and the child's psychological well-being. If JBR was severely punished for accidents, that may have prolonged and intensified the otherwise typical toileting issues she experienced.

The following article is outdated (1993), but offers valuable insight into child abuse stemming from toileting issues (warning: very sad read):
http://articles.philly.com/1993-11-...ses-toilet-training-accidents-toilet-training

After reviewing so much evidence in this case, the only theory I have found to fit all of the otherwise confounding puzzle pieces together is that JBR had an accident that night, PR accidentally murdered her, and then staged a cover-up with evidence that pointed away from their house, their family, and her motive. I believe that PR had been physically abusing JBR prior to that night, both by hitting and cleaning her violently. The violent cleaning would be inside her vagina with a wipe and/or douching, both of which would explain the vaginal trauma that night and in prior incidents, the recurring vaginitis, and the pediatrician's interest in JBR's sexual development. Further, the recurring vaginal trauma and the incident on the night of JBR's murder were described as not likely to be sexually gratifying and also not torturous, which has always been an issue for me when sexual abuse is discussed as a motive.

A little more on the doctor visits, which is also discussed in this thread: Although it's common for mothers to accompany their children to doctor visits, it's not common to be at the pediatrician 33 times in three years for reasons including vaginal infections and facial bruising/abrasions. If PR was the abuser, she would insist on accompanying JBR so that she could hide the visits and treatments from JR, plus she could be there to explain her version of events to the doctor. It also didn't seem like PR was particularly concerned about the excessive doctor visits or the reasons for them, which makes sense only if PR knew the true cause.

Much of this is pure speculation on my part, but again, so far PDI is the only theory that makes all of this mess make sense to me. I have just begun reading Kolar's book and am interested to learn his perspective on BDI, and I'm open to alternative explanations as well.

Unfortunately I don't believe that we will ever know what happened with 100% certainty, but by reviewing the evidence, seeing how that evidence fits in to different theories (or doesn't), and sharing our findings, I think we can at least expose the person(s) responsible for the record. I hope that someday, in the absence of the ability to prosecute, the BPD or DA can, without political or financial influence, at least issue a statement of their professional opinion with regard to every last piece of evidence uncovered in this case...but I'm not holding my breath.

As a retired teacher, it would be a cold day in he** before I would ever go into a bathroom with a child. If there was an issue, the child was brought to the nurse's office and then there would be a couple of witnesses to anything involving toileting. The parent would be called to,handle any issues if the child needed to be cleaned up. If not available, then it would be handled by staff.

There is no way I would be called to court. If a child makes an accusation, the teacher is immediately removed from the job until the investigation is over. No thank you.

 

[LilySweet]

Yes. The CBS show said Burke was smearing it on a wall. It was smeared on the chocolate that she got for Christmas. And there was a ball of poop the size of a cantaloupe left in JonBenets' bed.

 

[fedfan4life]

The quote is "the size of grapefruit" I doubt a human being has the ability to produce something the size of cantaloupe. Stop being sensasionalistic and spreading misinformation.

You do know that anyone with half a brain knew that 'cantaloupe' was a simple error made by the poster.