FL - Five killed, 8 wounded in shooting at Fort Lauderdale Airport, 6 Jan 2017

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think you can say it had nothing to do with it. It certainly may have shaped him in some way. I know my boyfriend was a completely different person after he got back from Afganistan. He had never once in all the years we were together hurt me, raised his voice to me or scared or intimidated me in anyway. Within a week of him being back, he picked me up by my throat and slammed me against a wall. I locked myself in the bathroom and he sat on the other side alternating between laughing and crying telling me he'd never hurt me. One of the other guys he was deployed with committed suicide by driving his motorcycle into a wall. They were given no help after returning. No time to adjust back to civilian life. No skills to manage the transition. It was horrible!

My ex is fine now and recently retired from the military, but he was a very strong person, leveled headed man, with no underlying mental health issues, but it doesn't turn out so well for them all.

I understand and respect your POV but IMO this didn't have anything to do with his prior military experience. JMO though

I even wonder back in November if he was already trying to setup an insanity defense. We will see how long he has been planning this massacre once the FBI traces all of his electronic devices. There is a reason they are not ruling out terrorism imo.

This was too well thought out and planed way ahead of time for me to believe he was mental ill because of the war. All of this took aforethought and cognitive thinking to carry this all out.

IMO

 

[AmyPond]

Wasn't it reported that he said the government was controlling his mind or something? If so, it's possible his years in the military do have something to do with all of this. I mean, if he is having delusions related to the government and all.

 

[Inthedetails]

There have been thousands of soldiers and marines who have seen their buddies killed or torn apart yet they are resorting to committing mass murder on totally innocent people. Millions of our vets who were in wars have seen the same horrific things and they are trying to commit mass murder on anyone.

Absolutely true.

Some people would be affected by seeing mates die in combat in front of them, but able to keep moving through their lives.

Others would be deeply affected.

Some people suffer tragedies in general and are able to keep moving on. Or, best yet, are able to create something wonderful out of tragedies. That is not uncommon.

Others cannot recover, or they can't recover on their own, or they take years and years to recover.

I'm not understanding the need to place people and experiences into such tight definitions what what is supposed to happen. People are complicated. History is complicated. Actions do not always have one specific cause.

(This post is not aimed at anyone in particular....I'm just conversing with the thread in general.)

jmo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Grunt is a term for foot soldier. It's not specific to Marines.

Oh okay, sorry I had never heard it applied to someone Army before.

 

[dotr]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/paul-finn-ottawa-fort-lauderdale-shooting-eerie-1.3926664

'It was eerie': Ottawa travellers recall Florida airport shooting aftermath

Passengers spent 7 hours on the tarmac as police hunted down suspect

People remained calm, said Finn, describing it as a somewhat macabre "bonding experience."

"Everyone knew what was going on. Or at least they'd heard about it. The kids were fantastic. The crew was great — they kept bringing us water and pretzels and chips and stuff," Finn said.
"Nobody cried. Nobody was panicking. Nobody got up and said, 'I want to get off this plane.'"
'Creepy and quiet'

Sharon Finn said there was a lot of confusion as passengers on the flight all tried to get information from their phones at once.
"We felt we were so lucky to be in our little cocoon. We did feel that. And I think that's why it was so calm, because we knew how lucky we were," she said.
At around 8 p.m. the plane finally taxied back to the terminal and the Finns and the rest of the passengers were able to disembark.
"We got off the plane. They said, 'go straight out.' And there's armed guards there, and in the concourse there's people's laptops and purses and wallets and everything else, just strewn on the floor," Paul Finn said.
"It was kind of eerie. Kind of creepy and quiet."

 

[Tawny]

Again, I'll make a request: Show me one actual terrorist who ever went to the FBI before carrying out an attack. Just one.

To dismiss his obvious mental health issues as some elaborate scheme to carry out an attack and be able to plead insanity is completely disingenuous (and frankly, harmful to those who may be suffering, because most feel nobody believes them), IMHO. If he were an actual operative, they give no care as to what their defense will be in court. They often don't even bother to try to survive the incident.

This dude went to the FBI and told them about voices in his head. He was admitted to a psych facility. He had domestic abuse incidents.

Terrorists fly under the radar on purpose. This kid was all over everyone's radar, including family and friends. WHY are we trying so hard to ignore the struggles that led to this?? Is it easier to say it was terrorism than admit it could have been prevented? JMO.

 

[drjones]

He wasn't a Marine so he cant be called a grunt which is a Marine in infantry on the frontlines.

no, its not specific to the marines.

 

[Elley Mae]

One in ten people in prison have a military background

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-to-prison-why-veterans-become-criminals.html

Below is from the dailybeast

No one knows how many veterans are incarcerated, but the most recent survey, compiled by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2004, found that nearly one in 10 inmates in U.S. jails had prior military service.

.bbm...........................................


https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5479

Veterans in Prison and Jail, 2011–2012

The number of veterans incarcerated in state and federal prison and local jail decreased from 203,000 in 2004 to 181,500 in 201112.

The total incarceration rate in 201112 for veterans (855 per 100,000 veterans in the United States) was lower than the rate for nonveterans (968 per 100,000 U.S. residents).

Non-Hispanic black and Hispanic inmates made up a significantly smaller proportion of incarcerated veterans (38% in prison and 44% in jail), compared to incarcerated non-Hispanic black and Hispanic nonveterans (63% in prison and 59% in jail).

A greater percentage of veterans (64%) than nonveterans (48%) were sentenced for violent offenses.

An estimated 43% of veterans and 55% of nonveterans in prison had four or more prior arrests.

bbm.

 

[drjones]

Again, I'll make a request: Show me one actual terrorist who ever went to the FBI before carrying out an attack. Just one.

To dismiss his obvious mental health issues as some elaborate scheme to carry out an attack and be able to plead insanity is completely disingenuous (and frankly, harmful to those who may be suffering, because most feel nobody believes them), IMHO. If he were an actual operative, they give no care as to what their defense will be in court. They often don't even bother to try to survive the incident.

This dude went to the FBI and told them about voices in his head. He was admitted to a psych facility. He had domestic abuse incidents.

Terrorists fly under the radar on purpose. This kid was all over everyone's radar, including family and friends. WHY are we trying so hard to ignore the struggles that led to this?? Is it easier to say it was terrorism than admit it could have been prevented? JMO.

i think it serves an emotional need for some people to say its terrorism, im not ruling anything out, right now there is significant evidence to suggest he had mental health problems that were severe, there is little to no evidence that he was a terrorist sympathizer, but i want to hear more about it. as you said, self-reporting to the FBI doesnt sound like someone who was on board with the idea, it sounds like someone that was troubled by the idea.

 

[Inthedetails]

Again, I'll make a request: Show me one actual terrorist who ever went to the FBI before carrying out an attack. Just one.

To dismiss his obvious mental health issues as some elaborate scheme to carry out an attack and be able to plead insanity is completely disingenuous (and frankly, harmful to those who may be suffering, because most feel nobody believes them), IMHO. If he were an actual operative, they give no care as to what their defense will be in court. They often don't even bother to try to survive the incident.

This dude went to the FBI and told them about voices in his head. He was admitted to a psych facility. He had domestic abuse incidents.

Terrorists fly under the radar on purpose. This kid was all over everyone's radar, including family and friends. WHY are we trying so hard to ignore the struggles that led to this?? Is it easier to say it was terrorism than admit it could have been prevented? JMO.

I'm not understanding why it has to be one explanation only. I think it was a combination of many contributing factors. He was mentally ill. He committed a terrorist act. A person could have terrorist thoughts without being mentally ill. A person could be mentally ill without terrorists thoughts. A person could be mentally ill, have terrorist thoughts, but suppress them. A person could pretend to be mentally ill. A person could have mental illness but also is capable of pretending to have different symptoms. A person could be mentally ill and be desperate for help. A person could have terrorist thoughts and make plans to kill people while being mentally ill at the same time. Or not.

I won't go on, but the guy was clearly troubled. I don't think we're going to pinpoint the source of his troubles 24 hours after he committed this horrible crime. I think it's going to be a tangled web with many strands holding this together.

JMOpinion, you don't have to agree.

ETA: And his motive....I think that is going to be complicated and/or unexpected. JMOPINION

 

[drjones]

for example - with his training he could have done a lot more damage if he wanted to, if he ever spoke with other terrorists they certainly would have been interested in his knowledge and abilities and it seems odd that anyone would suggest to him, or that he would come to the conclusion himself, that a single pistol was the best weapon for him to do something like this.

 

[Dogface]

Has anyone heard an update on the victims who are still hospitalized?

 

[AmyPond]

Absolutely true.

Some people would be affected by seeing mates die in combat in front of them, but able to keep moving through their lives.

Others would be deeply affected.

Some people suffer tragedies in general and are able to keep moving on. Or, best yet, are able to create something wonderful out of tragedies. That is not uncommon.

Others cannot recover, or they can't recover on their own, or they take years and years to recover.

I'm not understanding the need to place people and experiences into such tight definitions what what is supposed to happen. People are complicated. History is complicated. Actions do not always have one specific cause.

(This post is not aimed at anyone in particular....I'm just conversing with the thread in general.)

jmo

I agree. We really can't say if his time in the military did or did not have a negative effect on him.

Just because many people serve and never become violent doesn't mean that is the case for all.

I mean, think about a child who is abused. Some kids are abused but go on to live perfectly normal, healthy lives. But others go on to struggle in life. Have drug problems or whatever. Some become abusers themselves. Just because SOME lead normal lives doesn't mean the abuse didn't effect those others in a negative way.

(Not sure if I'm wording this right but oh well.)

 

[Inthedetails]

for example - with his training he could have done a lot more damage if he wanted to, if he ever spoke with other terrorists they certainly would have been interested in his knowledge and abilities and it seems odd that anyone would suggest to him, or that he would come to the conclusion himself, that a single pistol was the best weapon for him to do something like this.

To do what? To kill people? To scare people? To show weaknesses in security? He did all that.

Do I think he was a lone wolf terrorist? Not sure if that will be his label or if he's a run-of-the-mill mass murderer like we've experienced before in our country...in schools, malls, theaters, etc.. But I'm not ready to say just because he used a regular gun instead of something more powerful that must mean he's not a terrorist. I'm recalling what box cutters did. The size of the weapon isn't the point, imo.

Whatever the case, I'd like to know if he was on (or recently off) any meds. Has that been discussed?

jmopinion

 

[Inthedetails]

Snipped by me.

I hear ya! I'm having a hard time wording my thoughts on all this too. That is one reason I think we're talking about something complicated, not something easily or simply explained.

jmopinion

 

[drjones]

To do what? To kill people? To scare people? To show weaknesses in security? He did all that.

Do I think he was a lone wolf terrorist? Not sure if that will be his label or if he's a run-of-the-mill mass murderer like we've experienced before in our country...in schools, malls, theaters, etc.. But I'm not ready to say just because he used a regular gun instead of something more powerful that must mean he's not a terrorist. I'm recalling what box cutters did. The size of the weapon isn't the point, imo.

Whatever the case, I'd like to know if he was on (or recently off) any meds. Has that been discussed?

jmopinion

there was no weakness in security exposed here. (edit - what i mean to say is that there is no security regarding this, there is nobody watching for it or system in place to prevent it, so sure that can be considered a weakness but its not as if he had to exploit something etc to do what he did)

and yes, when i say he could have done more damage i mean kill more people and make people more scared, which clearly he could have, and that is definitely a goal of ISIS (et al) terrorists.

 

[Inthedetails]

there was no weakness in security exposed here.

and yes, when i say he could have done more damage i mean kill more people and make people more scared, which clearly he could have, and that is definitely a goal of ISIS (et al) terrorists.

The guy who drove a trunk in to a German holiday market probably could've killed more. The bombers in Boston probably could've killed more if they placed their backpack in an even bigger crowd. I honestly don't think we can measure terrorism by weapon or wounded. I think "intent" is the measurement of terrorism.

I don't know what this killer's intent was. Whatever is was, many of us will think of this shooting when we are at baggage claim.

jmopinion

 

[drjones]

The guy who drove a trunk in to a German holiday market probably could've killed more. The bombers in Boston probably could've killed more if they placed their backpack in an even bigger crowd. I honestly don't think we can measure terrorism by weapon or wounded. I think "intent" is the measurement of terrorism.

I don't know what this killer's intent was. Whatever is was, many of us will think of this shooting when we are at baggage claim.

jmopinion

i think you misunderstand my point, im not saying that the scale of an attack determines whether or not something is terror related, im saying that the specific details of this attack may imply that this attack was not primarily terror inspired. (and those details, in this case, are related to the size and manner of the attack)

 

[dotr]

http://people.com/crime/woman-thanks-man-shielding-her-florida-airport-shooting/

[h=1]Stranger Selflessly Risks His Life to Save Mother-of-Two During Florida Airport Shooting[/h]

“I was standing at baggage claim 3 and I heard gunshots,” Dean, a teacher and mother of two boys, said. “I knew what was happening — I’m a teacher from Broward Public Schools and I’ve been through two active shooter trainings … so when I heard the gunfire, I looked in the direction of the shooter, I saw the shooter … I saw the shots being fired.”

Dean said she used her training to find a hiding spot.
“I immediately ducked behind a Smart Cart and I just laid there,” she continued. “There wasn’t really anywhere to hide — I couldn’t have escaped, I couldn’t have run, and I was there maybe 30 seconds and an older gentleman laid on top of me and said, ‘I will protect you.’ ”
Dean said her protector was Tony Bartosiewicz, a retired electrician from Rochester, New York, according to the Sun Sentinel. Both Dean and Bartosiewicz survived the shooting.

 

[Elley Mae]

I see no reason why checked weapons can not be taken to a secure check-in ounce received at receiving airport, the weapon would then be given to the owner once ID is shown that the person is the owner and the weapon and the person are escorted out of the airport. When I purchased a long gun at a bass pro store after a wait period of 24 hours, (because it was the grand opening) they wanted to make sure their computer system was operating correctly, I was then escorted out of the store, and the gun was not loaded. jmo