FL - Former President Donald Trump indicted, 40 counts to classified documents and obstruction of justice, June 2023, Trial May 2024

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  • #641
As a UK citizen, I don't understand why a pardon would be preferable to him dying in prison. Do you mean because of the reaction of the MAGAs? Personally I think that life imprisonment would be a fitting punishment, but as I said, I'm not from the USA so I may be misunderstanding.
It’s because it would keep America together. I won’t give my opinion here, but that’s what I fully expect to happen. He won’t go to prison, but if he’s smart, he’ll die both out of office, and as a free man.

Not sure his ego is going to allow it, but it’s the smart play on his part.
 
  • #642
  • #643
As a UK citizen, I don't understand why a pardon would be preferable to him dying in prison. Do you mean because of the reaction of the MAGAs? Personally I think that life imprisonment would be a fitting punishment, but as I said, I'm not from the USA so I may be misunderstanding.
I'm also in the UK.

Basically my thinking on it is like Massguy said. Kind of a nod to the position of former POTUS and saying that is more important than taking political sides. To not want the nation to have to watch the news of a former POTUS dying in prison. To say that this isn't about vengeance but is only to make a point about no one being above the law. And recognition that this isn't just serious behaviour within the USA but also has an effect on security for partner nations of the USA. And also in the hope for healing for the nation. I'm trying to see it more from the US point of view more than anything, though I also know that if convicted there would be a lot of people saying he deserves to serve whatever sentence those charges carry because justice is a strong desire in the US, and a very retributive type of justice, as branmuffin pointed out.

I don't believe this was about selling state secrets. I think it was more about power tripping and not wanting to let go of that power. If there was evidence of attempts to give away or sell the information in the documents, then I would be in favour of the full sentence being served. But if I'm right, then I think justice is more about telling him once and for all that there are limits, and he can't literally get away with anything, even if he claims he can and thinks he can. And I think it's about sending a message through to the future, to future office-holders. But I don't think it should be about cruelty.

I'm not saying I'm right, and I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me.
 
  • #644
  • #645

The special counsel's motion said the materials include "sensitive and confidential information," including personal identifiable information, information that reveals investigative techniques, non-public information relating to potential witnesses, and personal information contained on electronic devices and accounts.

Notably, the special counsel also said the materials include "information pertaining to ongoing investigations, the disclosure of which could compromise those investigations and identify uncharged individuals."

PHOTO: FILE - Walt Nauta takes a phone from former President Donald Trump during the LIV Golf Pro-Am at Trump National Golf Club, May 25, 2023, in Sterling, Va. (Alex Brandon/AP, FILE)

PHOTO: FILE - Walt Nauta takes a phone from former President Donald Trump during the LIV Golf Pro-Am at Trump National Golf Club, May 25, 2023, in Sterling, Va. (Alex Brandon/AP, FILE)

The filing said the special counsel had spoken with attorneys for Trump and Nauta, who had no objection to the imposition of a protective order.
 
  • #646
If Trump is convicted of any of the charges that have significant prison sentences, I think it would be madness to exonerate him. As a Canadian, I've always thought that the US has a much more punitive justice system than many other industrialized, democratic nations. It is retributive rather than rehabilitative. I don't think Donald Trump is capable of being rehabilitated. He's a 77 year old malignant narcissist who plays the victim to his marks.

A pardon should be out of the question but a lengthy prison sentence should be, too. Perhaps DJT could spend one month in a federal prison where he becomes a number instead of the former president, then he can have his sentence commuted by the sitting President.

It would satisfy the bedrock of the American Justice System but with an ironic twist. In normal criminal cases, a crime against an individual is a crime against the State, however Trump has allegedly committed a crime against the State which in essence is a crime against every single American.
He should stay in jail at least as long as any Jan. 6th insurrectionist +1day. IMO
 
  • #647

That is a lot of lawyers now that DT has lost ... or fired (Sidney Powell) .... or "cut ties with" (Rudy Giuliani).
At least 18 lawyers, maybe more.


Jim Trusty - the classified documents case, the Jan 6 investigation, the CNN lawsuit
John Rowley - the classified documents case, the Jan 6 investigation
Tim Parlatore - the classified documents case
Rudy Giuliani - when multiple lawsuits were lodged about the role Giuliani played in efforts to overturn the election
Butch Bowers, Deborah Barbier, Johnny Gasser, Greg Harris, and Josh Howard (impeachment lawyers) - repeated and debunked claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election
Cleta Mitchell - due to "brazen attacks on conservatives and, most especially, anyone who supports and wants to help President Trump"
Sidney Powell - after doubling-down on baseless election fraud theories and vowing to “release the kraken of evidence”
Bryan Hughes, Linda Kerns, and John Scott - lawsuits to block Pennsylvania’s election certification
Unnamed lawyers at Jones Day - lawsuits contesting parts of the 2020 vote in Pennsylvania
Two unnamed lawyers at Porter Wright Morris & Arthur - lawsuits contesting parts of the 2020 vote in Pennsylvania

.
 
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  • #648
Weird, the man can’t keep a good lawyer!:cool:
 
  • #649
  • #650
Maybe they all would like to get paid... :cool:
They're also tired of representing an unmanageable client who won't keep his mouth shut. JMO
 
  • #651
I agree; I recall a guy going to prison for a certain act of treason at a beer hall in Munich. They let him out and he and his followers took that as a sure sign of strength with him going on to be elected and then to actually dictate. And, the rest as they say is history.
He should stay in jail at least as long as any Jan. 6th insurrectionist +1day.
 
  • #652
JUN 18, 2023
[...]

“He will always put his own interests, and gratifying his own ego, ahead of everything else, including the country’s interest, there’s no question about it,” Barr said of Trump, in an interview with Robert Costa on CBS News’s “Face the Nation.”

“He’s like a nine-year-old, defiant nine-year-old kid, who’s always pushing the glass toward the edge of the table, defying his parents to stop him from doing it. It’s a means of self-assertion and exerting his dominance over other people. And he’s a very petty individual who will always put his interests ahead of the country’s, his personal gratification of his ego, but our country can’t be a therapy session for a troubled man like this,” Barr said of Trump.

[...]

Christie, who helped both of Trump’s previous bids at the White House, recalled Trump’s promise in 2016 to hire the best people to work in his Cabinet and that he would know how to manage them well. Christie then listed various officials who left his administration and who subsequently faced a barrage of insults about their intelligence and competence.

“Donald Trump, if you believe what he said when they left, that means he didn’t pick the very best people and doesn’t know how to pick personnel. If you believe what — about them what he said at the beginning, the great stuff, then this guy is the worst manager in the history of the American presidency,” Christie said of Trump.

“Either way, Republicans should listen to what he says. He’s a petulant child when someone disagrees with him … if you disagree with Donald Trump, the petulant child comes out and he calls you names,” Christie added.
 
  • #653
Trump’s former secretary of defense Mark Esper told CNN that Trump’s hoarding of classified documents was “unauthorized, illegal and dangerous”.

Asked if he thought Trump could be trusted with classified information again, Esper said: “Based on his actions, again, if proven true under the indictment by the special counsel, no. It’s just irresponsible action that places our service members at risk, places our nation’s security at risk.”

 
  • #654

[...]

... Trump stored classified documents in the ballroom, a bathroom, his bedroom, a storage room and his office. It’s unclear who exactly could get inside those areas, but it would stand to reason that some Mar-a-Lago staff could access them.

Mar-a-Lago relies on foreign nationals to work as servers, cooks and housekeepers. In 2016, the club sought 65 foreign workers. The figure has increased every year since, with the exception of 2020, when the club shut down in the early days of the pandemic and furloughed more than 150 employees. Last winter, Mar-a-Lago sought out 91 foreign workers, according to records filed with the Department of Labor.

[...]
 
  • #655
JUN 18, 2023
[...]

“He will always put his own interests, and gratifying his own ego, ahead of everything else, including the country’s interest, there’s no question about it,” Barr said of Trump, in an interview with Robert Costa on CBS News’s “Face the Nation.”

“He’s like a nine-year-old, defiant nine-year-old kid, who’s always pushing the glass toward the edge of the table, defying his parents to stop him from doing it. It’s a means of self-assertion and exerting his dominance over other people. And he’s a very petty individual who will always put his interests ahead of the country’s, his personal gratification of his ego, but our country can’t be a therapy session for a troubled man like this,” Barr said of Trump.

[...]

Christie, who helped both of Trump’s previous bids at the White House, recalled Trump’s promise in 2016 to hire the best people to work in his Cabinet and that he would know how to manage them well. Christie then listed various officials who left his administration and who subsequently faced a barrage of insults about their intelligence and competence.

“Donald Trump, if you believe what he said when they left, that means he didn’t pick the very best people and doesn’t know how to pick personnel. If you believe what — about them what he said at the beginning, the great stuff, then this guy is the worst manager in the history of the American presidency,” Christie said of Trump.

“Either way, Republicans should listen to what he says. He’s a petulant child when someone disagrees with him … if you disagree with Donald Trump, the petulant child comes out and he calls you names,” Christie added.
A day late and a dollar short. Why do these guys finally go public with views regarding Trump's toxicity that half the country figured out years ago. Complaining retroactively about his behavior insults all those Americans alarmed by his behavior yet fell of deaf ears of those he put in power because power is what they wanted. At any cost.
 
  • #656

[...]

... Trump stored classified documents in the ballroom, a bathroom, his bedroom, a storage room and his office. It’s unclear who exactly could get inside those areas, but it would stand to reason that some Mar-a-Lago staff could access them.

Mar-a-Lago relies on foreign nationals to work as servers, cooks and housekeepers. In 2016, the club sought 65 foreign workers. The figure has increased every year since, with the exception of 2020, when the club shut down in the early days of the pandemic and furloughed more than 150 employees. Last winter, Mar-a-Lago sought out 91 foreign workers, according to records filed with the Department of Labor.

[...]

It's not only foreign workers who can be other than who they appear to be.
 
  • #657
If the US becomes an autocracy like that, I think it will cease to be a leader of the free and democratic world.

The Espionage charges already have the world's attention. And our politicians are staying quiet, which is significant. It is about National Security, for us (and for the US and others).



A classified document relating to an intelligence-sharing alliance of which Australia is a member was allegedly among documents in the former president Mar-A-Lago estate.
Foreign Minister Penny Wong was tight-lipped about the revelation when questioned over the weekend, stating the Five Eyes intelligence alliance was “important” but refused to comment further.
Aussie link to secret file ‘found at Trump’s resort’
FIVE EYES: Australia, Canada, United Kingdom, United States & New Zealand

So, national security implications for at least 4 Allied nations and their troops as well. Crazy how he has put the USofA at risk with non-Allies by letting these documents lay about willy-nilly and improperly stored/secured - risking not just the US and her security, but their partner nations too. The implications of this intelligence failure are huge. It is not business as usual. The US really needs to do something to ensure this is NEVER allowed to happen again.

In pointing that out, because the seriousness of the situation is NOT so obvious to some of his sycophants, it struck me that there had been an article linked in here earlier that something crawed at my brain as hincky and I just couldn't figure it out ... but now it's struck me as to what was gnawing at my brain:

One box-knower cited by the Times said, “While the materials were disorganized, Mr. Trump would notice if somebody had rifled through them or they were not arranged in a particular way.” And two anonymous sources confirmed that Trump “was generally able to identify what was in the boxes most immediately around him.”...

...One former White House official told the Times that Trump would notice if anyone had riffled through the materials and or were not arranged in a particular way.

If Mr. Trump would notice that the boxes had been "riffled through" ... isn't that the implication that boxes acually were "riffled through" by others who were not him? WHO??? For they have also potentially viewed documents not for their eyes which put the US and her Allies at risk ...
 
  • #658
If Mr. Trump would notice that the boxes had been "riffled through" ... isn't that the implication that boxes acually were "riffled through" by others who were not him? WHO??? For they have also potentially viewed documents not for their eyes which put the US and her Allies at risk ...
Who knows where some of that information may have ended up...
 
  • #659
FIVE EYES: Australia, Canada, United Kingdom, United States & New Zealand

So, national security implications for at least 4 Allied nations and their troops as well. Crazy how he has put the USofA at risk with non-Allies by letting these documents lay about willy-nilly and improperly stored/secured - risking not just the US and her security, but their partner nations too. The implications of this intelligence failure are huge. It is not business as usual. The US really needs to do something to ensure this is NEVER allowed to happen again.

In pointing that out, because the seriousness of the situation is NOT so obvious to some of his sycophants, it struck me that there had been an article linked in here earlier that something crawed at my brain as hincky and I just couldn't figure it out ... but now it's struck me as to what was gnawing at my brain:





If Mr. Trump would notice that the boxes had been "riffled through" ... isn't that the implication that boxes acually were "riffled through" by others who were not him? WHO??? For they have also potentially viewed documents not for their eyes which put the US and her Allies at risk ...

It is a serious breach of trust. I am sure that other nations will be wondering what intelligence they should share.

I would think that there has been communications between the US and others ... "okay, what documents do we know DT had?"

Because I am (and probably others are) not convinced that he retains no other documents that he shouldn't have. Ones that were not in those boxes any more. We know that he had already done some "sorting". It is in his nature to continue to conceal.

imo
 
  • #660
Magistrate judge Bruce Reinhart has ordered restrictions on the handling of evidence provided by Justice Dept to Trump's legal team:

"Discovery materials, along with any information derived therefrom, shall not be disclosed to the public or the news media, or disseminated on any news or social media platform, without prior notice to and consent of the United States or approval of the Court"

Judge's order also specified Trump "shall not retain copies of Discovery Material.”

Trump may only review case materials “under the direct supervision of defense counsel or a member of defense counsel’s staff.”

 
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