FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #12

[shelly111]

jeniffer was safety conscious.
she made safety calls when she was alone,when walking to her car... when she was alone in her apt with the workers ...
but sadly that was not enough.
Once he found out jennifer lived alone ... most of the apts are unoccupied....
A beautiful woman alone in an empty building ... jennifer was an easy target for him.
There have been cases of women being abducted while on the phone and they were never to be heard again.
All it takes is few secondes and the person is gone.
Jennifer felt safe having a cell phone with her all the time and a
a mace, a pepper spray . Having a these things jennufer let her guard down thinking she is safe.
Being on the phone will not save you from a stalker or a serial killer.

 

[rd_jfc]

Is the place where the car was found a condo complex ? TIA.

No, an apartment complex. From what I could see they were all apartment complexes starting at about Texas. As we've seen in info about Mosaic, Mosaic was just being converted to condos at the time hence construction workers. Jennifer bought one that had been converted.

 

[rd_jfc]

That's sort of what I was getting at. It also could've been some sort of nonthreatening situation. Someone comes to the door claiming they locked themselves out of their apartment, and their cell phone was dead, etc. I don't think it's that unreasonable to think
someone might pop their door open to be a good samaritan.

Again, this seems to be done so well amen obviously premeditated that a person would not risk doing that as workers are arriving at the complex, people are starting to head to work and all that jazz.

I'm actually a bit shocked that some people favor it being a morning incident. Not a knock on them of course as it's just my personal opinion!

It was mentioned before but I wonder what evidence there was that indicated the phones were shut off at 10:40 PM. Or how that can be detected? Because the show seemed pretty hellbent on that being a clue.

No evidence at all. Entirety of information comes from a post by Jennifer's dad in their Guestbook site for Jennifer.

Having said that, the information was repeated with terminology intact, so was a technical determination passed on to him by someone.

The morning thing in my opinion stems mostly from family's belief that Jennifer would not go back out after she had talked to her bf and indicated she was going to bed etc. The police initially said they thought that Jennifer had gone out to send the phone back to owner but ended up saying that Jennifer was probably abducted close to her car going out to go to work. There's no basis for the morning thing other than what family perceived condo to look like, damp shower, etc.

Since Jennifer was not known to turn her cell off at night and used it for alarm clock, the 10:40pm power off of both phones info is the one compelling indication of when she was abducted.

 

[TedMac]

No evidence at all. Entirety of information comes from a post by Jennifer's dad in their Guestbook site for Jennifer.

Having said that, the information was repeated with terminology intact, so was a technical determination passed on to him by someone.

The morning thing in my opinion stems mostly from family's belief that Jennifer would not go back out after she had talked to her bf and indicated she was going to bed etc. The police initially said they thought that Jennifer had gone out to send the phone back to owner but ended up saying that Jennifer was probably abducted close to her car going out to go to work. There's no basis for the morning thing other than what family perceived condo to look like, damp shower, etc.

Since Jennifer was not known to turn her cell off at night and used it for alarm clock, the 10:40pm power off of both phones info is the one compelling indication of when she was abducted.

BBM Are we certain that the phones were powered off at 10:40? Jennifer's mom stated in the podcast that was not accurate.

 

[Brainy]

When I lived in Tampa, FL, it seemed like towels could stay wet for a whole night and day in January. The average high in Jan is 70 degrees [21C]. Sometimes it's in the 70s and steamy, and you might turn the air on just to get rid of the humidity. It's possible the towel stayed wet all night.

Yes, I agree. The towel being wet is not an extraordinary clue. I have no idea why people have always been so fixated on this detail. My towel is wet/damp many hours after a shower. I don't think there is anything unusual about it, and it is not a good indicator of when Jennifer was abducted.

 

[liz b.]

That's sort of what I was getting at. It also could've been some sort of nonthreatening situation. Someone comes to the door claiming they locked themselves out of their apartment, and their cell phone was dead, etc. I don't think it's that unreasonable to think
someone might pop their door open to be a good samaritan.

Again, this seems to be done so well amen obviously premeditated that a person would not risk doing that as workers are arriving at the complex, people are starting to head to work and all that jazz.

I'm actually a bit shocked that some people favor it being a morning incident. Not a knock on them of course as it's just my personal opinion!

It was mentioned before but I wonder what evidence there was that indicated the phones were shut off at 10:40 PM. Or how that can be detected? Because the show seemed pretty hellbent on that being a clue.

I think she would have only opened her door late at night to someone she knew very well. Someone she thought she could trust. jmo

 

[liz b.]

No, an apartment complex. From what I could see they were all apartment complexes starting at about Texas. As we've seen in info about Mosaic, Mosaic was just being converted to condos at the time hence construction workers. Jennifer bought one that had been converted.

It is described as the Huntington on the Green condominiums in LE and news reports. I wondered about it because if it is/was condos, perhaps it wasn't quite as shady as we thought ? Would the Home Owners' association have put up with rampant drug dealing,, break ins, etc ? Also, I wonder if the surveillance video there showed any other activity at or near the vehicle in the two days that it was there ?

 

[rd_jfc]

[/B]

BBM Are we certain that the phones were powered off at 10:40? Jennifer's mom stated in the podcast that was not accurate.

We are certain that Jennifer's dad posted the specific information in the Jennifer's Guestbook back in 2014 or so as told to him. Her mom's statement has been described in various ways, I have never seen a post that quoted her as saying it was not accurate. I saw something about her saying they were not told the info by law enforcement, the someone shortened it to they were not told that info, now shortened to the info is not accurate.

There is an actual quote in the video, and it can't be any more than one of these three. There are several possible ways to interpret the gist of the statement. It can range from it's not official, we weren't told this by the police to we no longer trust the source of this info.

The statement is accurate in sofar as Drew was given this info. He carefully quoted it and elaborated on it, adding more info he was given about can't be in two places at once which is also carrier technical analysis based.

And by analysis here, I need to re-assert a problem people are having mixing the various and evolving technologies of locating a cell phone in a certain area. Analysis here does not refer to locating the cell phone, it refers to matching Jennifer's and the friend's cell phone id's in tower logs and determining what tower was in control of each phone when. This is basic stuff.

It is totally irrelevant for this purpose whether some closer tower was out of commission, it's just a matter of timewise when was last logged communication with each phone at any tower. It is not a given as far as reporting goes that this cell phone ping communication information had been retrieved by the carriers for law enforcement for years until this specific information was posted by Drew, and this only in the sense that it clearly refers to carrier analysis of the logs.

So the original post was very precise, this one statement in a video, which was originally pretty clear that she said they weren't told this info by law enforcement, is not being portrayed very precisely.

 

[British99]

There is no proof that the phones were powered off at night. In fact the most recent statement contradicts that. Mr. Kesse appears to have misspoke a few years ago if it was even him that stated it.

Also I have been to Huntington on the green apartments and they are rough apartments in a rough part of town. The surrounding area is also rough.

 

[Force Ten]

There is no proof that the phones were powered off at night. In fact the most recent statement contradicts that. Mr. Kesse appears to have misspoke a few years ago if it was even him that stated it.

Also I have been to Huntington on the green apartments and they are rough apartments in a rough part of town. The surrounding area is also rough.

I wonder if LE assumed they were purposely shut off the night before because perhaps it was about the same time? Then they relayed that info to the family.

 

[JetsFan24]

I wonder if LE assumed they were purposely shut off the night before because perhaps it was about the same time? Then they relayed that info to the family.

I just wonder how is there a determination that a phone was shut off? As far as I know, a cell being off can only be determined by calls/text messages not going through, and has virtually nothing to do with data or anything like that.

I feel like that might be something that can be tracked now, but in 2006? No way, but I could be very wrong.

 

[rd_jfc]

There is no proof that the phones were powered off at night. In fact the most recent statement contradicts that. Mr. Kesse appears to have misspoke a few years ago if it was even him that stated it.

Also I have been to Huntington on the green apartments and they are rough apartments in a rough part of town. The surrounding area is also rough.

It was not a spoken statement to misspeak. It was a non-trivial, carefully worded post in their Guestbook in context of answering a question that they said they generally do not answer. The info has been quoted here multiple times. I looked it up in the Guestbook last week and posted its location again.

On the other hand, you are referring to something spoken which no one can even quote with some certainty.

Rough? I was there. Americana from interstate past Mosaic to Texas is bucolic. The intersection of Americana and Texas is a virtual paradise compared to rough neighborhoods. There are pictures of the street and HOTG posted, there are millions of Americans who would welcome such "roughness".

 

[rd_jfc]

I just wonder how is there a determination that a phone was shut off? As far as I know, a cell being off can only be determined by calls/text messages not going through, and has virtually nothing to do with data or anything like that.

I feel like that might be something that can be tracked now, but in 2006? No way, but I could be very wrong.

Basic pinging and cell phones switching controlling tower is how cell phones work. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to move with a cell phone.

The phone carrier has to know what tower to direct a call for a call to get through to you. That tower is known to them by your cell phone pinging and establishing communications with towers, one of which will be designated as tower to send calls to you. When you move out of range the controlling tower will change. If there is no tower within range you have "no signal".

Basic ping recording for tower locations and making that info available to law enforcement is well known from many cases, one that preceded Jennifer's disappearance was Laci Peterson's disappearance and the determination of Scott Peterson's movements from his cell phone pinging. This is very basic stuff.

 

[liz b.]

It was not a spoken statement to misspeak. It was a non-trivial, carefully worded post in their Guestbook in context of answering a question that they said they generally do not answer. The info has been quoted here multiple times. I looked it up in the Guestbook last week and posted its location again.

On the other hand, you are referring to something spoken which no one can even quote with some certainty.

Rough? I was there. Americana from interstate past Mosaic to Texas is bucolic. The intersection of Americana and Texas is a virtual paradise compared to rough neighborhoods. There are pictures of the street and HOTG posted, there are millions of Americans who would welcome such "roughness".

Thanks for the insight into the area. Agree that it is subjective. Huntington on the Green is described as condos. I am looking for reasons the car was left there. I had originally thought that it was to make LE think JK went over there to HOTG, ostensibly to score drugs. Now, I wonder if there is another connection to HOTG that was missed. jmo

 

[kemo]

I have been reading up on the subject of forensic cell phone records analysis. From what I can tell, if Jennifer or the brothers friend's phones were not Smart Phones, there would be no "historical" record of where the phones were when they ping or when they were when they were powered up or powered off. What would be available would have been the cell tower the phone was "engaged with" at the time there was data transfer with that phone; i.e. an incoming or outgoing call or text message.

The cell tower the phone was "engaged with" would be the tower the phone got the strongest signal from. Very often this would be the nearest tower but sometimes companies will mix towers with different signal power to achieve maximum coverage. Either way, the phone company would have a pretty good idea of the geographic area a phone was located in by what tower the phone was engaged with during normal operating conditions. During periods of very heavy usage or if there were problems with a tower, including routine maintenance, conditions would not be normal and a phone might default to a tower that is near but not in the predicted geographic area. If a phone is in a moving vehicle while in used, the tower it is engaged with might change and a record of that change would be retained. If a phone is powered off, loses its signal with all towers or is simply "on" but not being used, there would be no way to tell from the historical record of where the phone was at any given time. If a call or text message it made to a phone that is "engaging" with a tower, a record of the tower would be created. If a call or text is made to a phone that is powered off or out of range of any tower, a record of that failed call will also be created.

Apparently the FBI has determined that now, 90% of calls go to the "predicted" cell tower. It is possible that 12 years ago, that number would have been different. Unless the cell records are evaluated by a technician who had access to tower volume and tower efficiency, an estimate of a phone location might not be particularly accurate.

The significance to Jennifer's case would seem to be that LE would be able tell the general location of the phone when she made her final calls Monday night but, to be accurate, the review of the records would have to include consideration of signal strength from the predicted tower. If a call engaged from a different tower, it would be difficult to differentiate between a call that defaulted to a different tower and a phone that was actually in a different location.

Law Enforcement would not be able to tell when a phone was shut off but, when the first incoming call came in, they would know that the phone was powered off. (It is my understanding that cell coverage is pretty good in that part of Florida so someone would have to drive quite a ways to be out of range if any tower). We know that her boyfriend called her Tuesday morning and the phone was "off". It would be interesting to know if there were any incoming calls or texts before that. If there was an incoming call at 10:40, and the phone was off, it would be highly significant. Otherwise, it do see where that time would have come from.

I suspect that the phone records may not be that important. The first incoming call or text after the phone was powered off gives us some idea of the timeframe of whatever happened. For someone to take the effort to power off a phone during an abduction would suggest a high degree of criminal sophistication. If, for some reason Jen powered it down herself, possibly because she was mad at her boyfriend, it would have created a classic "red herring".

Incidentally, if any of this technical information is wrong, please let us know.

 

[rd_jfc]

Thanks for the insight into the area. Agree that it is subjective. Huntington on the Green is described as condos. I am looking for reasons the car was left there. I had originally thought that it was to make LE think JK went over there to HOTG, ostensibly to score drugs. Now, I wonder if there is another connection to HOTG that was missed. jmo

When you say is described as condo, I have no idea if HOTG was converted to condos since 2006 like Mosaic was, but it was apartments at the time of the crime, and Mosaic was in midst of completing conversion. Converting to condos was a big deal in Florida in that time frame, prior to the mortgage collapse. I moved to Florida in 2005 and several apartment complexes I went to look at had signs up about selling condos.

Texas is the first major intersection on Conroy-Americana from Mosaic other than the very busy John Young Parkway. I don't think it's any more complicated than that, and of course parking the car as if that person lived in HOTG was a distraction. Car could have more easily been parked in strip mall parking lot across Texas from HOTG but was instead parked front and center at HOTG in front of the main walkway.

 

[rd_jfc]

I have been reading up on the subject of forensic cell phone records analysis. From what I can tell, if Jennifer or the brothers friend's phones were not Smart Phones, there would be no "historical" record of where the phones were when they ping or when they were when they were powered up or powered off. What would be available would have been the cell tower the phone was "engaged with" at the time there was data transfer with that phone; i.e. an incoming or outgoing call or text message.

The cell tower the phone was "engaged with" would be the tower the phone got the strongest signal from. Very often this would be the nearest tower but sometimes companies will mix towers with different signal power to achieve maximum coverage. Either way, the phone company would have a pretty good idea of the geographic area a phone was located in by what tower the phone was engaged with during normal operating conditions. During periods of very heavy usage or if there were problems with a tower, including routine maintenance, conditions would not be normal and a phone might default to a tower that is near but not in the predicted geographic area. If a phone is in a moving vehicle while in used, the tower it is engaged with might change and a record of that change would be retained. If a phone is powered off, loses its signal with all towers or is simply "on" but not being used, there would be no way to tell from the historical record of where the phone was at any given time. If a call or text message it made to a phone that is "engaging" with a tower, a record of the tower would be created. If a call or text is made to a phone that is powered off or out of range of any tower, a record of that failed call will also be created.

Apparently the FBI has determined that now, 90% of calls go to the "predicted" cell tower. It is possible that 12 years ago, that number would have been different. Unless the cell records are evaluated by a technician who had access to tower volume and tower efficiency, an estimate of a phone location might not be particularly accurate.

The significance to Jennifer's case would seem to be that LE would be able tell the general location of the phone when she made her final calls Monday night but, to be accurate, the review of the records would have to include consideration of signal strength from the predicted tower. If a call engaged from a different tower, it would be difficult to differentiate between a call that defaulted to a different tower and a phone that was actually in a different location.

Law Enforcement would not be able to tell when a phone was shut off but, when the first incoming call came in, they would know that the phone was powered off. (It is my understanding that cell coverage is pretty good in that part of Florida so someone would have to drive quite a ways to be out of range if any tower). We know that her boyfriend called her Tuesday morning and the phone was "off". It would be interesting to know if there were any incoming calls or texts before that. If there was an incoming call at 10:40, and the phone was off, it would be highly significant. Otherwise, it do see where that time would have come from.

I suspect that the phone records may not be that important. The first incoming call or text after the phone was powered off gives us some idea of the timeframe of whatever happened. For someone to take the effort to power off a phone during an abduction would suggest a high degree of criminal sophistication. If, for some reason Jen powered it down herself, possibly because she was mad at her boyfriend, it would have created a classic "red herring".

Incidentally, if any of this technical information is wrong, please let us know.

hi kemo, my prior post addressed the points in your post:
1) ping recording activity both required for a call to even take place and are tracking events where no calls are even made
2) irrelevance of location of towers recording pings as far as logged time concerned
3) location of Jennifer's cell phone not a factor in this or even being attempted re: time of activity
4) everything about range, predicted tower, etc. irrelevant, time stamp activty anywhere dtermines phone was on
5) lack of activity determines phone was off (i.e. last recorded ping time anywhere)

In addition to the technical stuff, Jennifer powering down her phone would also be turning off her alarm clock.

 

[Force Ten]

When you say is described as condo, I have no idea if HOTG was converted to condos since 2006 like Mosaic was, but it was apartments at the time of the crime, and Mosaic was in midst of completing conversion. Converting to condos was a big deal in Florida in that time frame, prior to the mortgage collapse. I moved to Florida in 2005 and several apartment complexes I went to look at had signs up about selling condos.

Texas is the first major intersection on Conroy-Americana from Mosaic other than the very busy John Young Parkway. I don't think it's any more complicated than that, and of course parking the car as if that person lived in HOTG was a distraction. Car could have more easily been parked in strip mall parking lot across Texas from HOTG but was instead parked front and center at HOTG in front of the main walkway.

Actually there are no structural attributes to classify differences in an apartment versus a condo. They are virtually the same. Classification has to do with individual ownership, so no 'conversion' would be required. Any construction going on most likely had to do renovating.

 

[Force Ten]

I have been reading up on the subject of forensic cell phone records analysis. From what I can tell, if Jennifer or the brothers friend's phones were not Smart Phones, there would be no "historical" record of where the phones were when they ping or when they were when they were powered up or powered off. What would be available would have been the cell tower the phone was "engaged with" at the time there was data transfer with that phone; i.e. an incoming or outgoing call or text message.

The cell tower the phone was "engaged with" would be the tower the phone got the strongest signal from. Very often this would be the nearest tower but sometimes companies will mix towers with different signal power to achieve maximum coverage. Either way, the phone company would have a pretty good idea of the geographic area a phone was located in by what tower the phone was engaged with during normal operating conditions. During periods of very heavy usage or if there were problems with a tower, including routine maintenance, conditions would not be normal and a phone might default to a tower that is near but not in the predicted geographic area. If a phone is in a moving vehicle while in used, the tower it is engaged with might change and a record of that change would be retained. If a phone is powered off, loses its signal with all towers or is simply "on" but not being used, there would be no way to tell from the historical record of where the phone was at any given time. If a call or text message it made to a phone that is "engaging" with a tower, a record of the tower would be created. If a call or text is made to a phone that is powered off or out of range of any tower, a record of that failed call will also be created.

Apparently the FBI has determined that now, 90% of calls go to the "predicted" cell tower. It is possible that 12 years ago, that number would have been different. Unless the cell records are evaluated by a technician who had access to tower volume and tower efficiency, an estimate of a phone location might not be particularly accurate.

The significance to Jennifer's case would seem to be that LE would be able tell the general location of the phone when she made her final calls Monday night but, to be accurate, the review of the records would have to include consideration of signal strength from the predicted tower. If a call engaged from a different tower, it would be difficult to differentiate between a call that defaulted to a different tower and a phone that was actually in a different location.

Law Enforcement would not be able to tell when a phone was shut off but, when the first incoming call came in, they would know that the phone was powered off. (It is my understanding that cell coverage is pretty good in that part of Florida so someone would have to drive quite a ways to be out of range if any tower). We know that her boyfriend called her Tuesday morning and the phone was "off". It would be interesting to know if there were any incoming calls or texts before that. If there was an incoming call at 10:40, and the phone was off, it would be highly significant. Otherwise, it do see where that time would have come from.

I suspect that the phone records may not be that important. The first incoming call or text after the phone was powered off gives us some idea of the timeframe of whatever happened. For someone to take the effort to power off a phone during an abduction would suggest a high degree of criminal sophistication. If, for some reason Jen powered it down herself, possibly because she was mad at her boyfriend, it would have created a classic "red herring".

Incidentally, if any of this technical information is wrong, please let us know.

BBM. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong but didn't he say they had a fight or were arguing? That could be reason enough to turn it off, and perhaps the other phone in case he would try to reach her on that phone. It was late (10:30ish?) and had to be up early the next morning. As far as a phone being used as an alarm I think too much is being made about that. People often rely on that today but in 2006, not as much. She could shut it off and simply use on an alarm clock (remember those?).

 

[liz b.]

When you say is described as condo, I have no idea if HOTG was converted to condos since 2006 like Mosaic was, but it was apartments at the time of the crime, and Mosaic was in midst of completing conversion. Converting to condos was a big deal in Florida in that time frame, prior to the mortgage collapse. I moved to Florida in 2005 and several apartment complexes I went to look at had signs up about selling condos.

Texas is the first major intersection on Conroy-Americana from Mosaic other than the very busy John Young Parkway. I don't think it's any more complicated than that, and of course parking the car as if that person lived in HOTG was a distraction. Car could have more easily been parked in strip mall parking lot across Texas from HOTG but was instead parked front and center at HOTG in front of the main walkway.

What I meant was that HOTG are referred to as HOTG condominiums at the beginning of this case. In the media and by LE. Not HOTG apartments, but HOTG condominiums.