For those who agree with the verdict...help me understand.

[pcrum12]

I'm curious, do you accept that there was duct tape over Caylee's nose and mouth? And if so, how do you explain that in light of an accident?

I do not believe there was duct tape over her mouth and nose. It was NOT proven. I don't care what Dr G said. The media, prosecution, and all over this forum stated that as a fact. But the fact is that the tape was stuck in ONE side of her hair. It could have just been garbage already there. It could have been used to close the canvas bag. It could have been anywhere and once RK disturbed the remains by lifting the bag and "tilting" the skull, you just could not rely on that evidence. It's tainted/contaminated, period. Even without RK, this was flooded, animals were feeding and scattering. Anything could have repositioned that tape. And that super imposed little video was crazy IMO. Even it showed/ moved the tape to several locations to show that over mouth and nose wasn't the ony position the tape could have been in. JMOO

 

[Baznme]

Great point, and this would make sense. The air samples meant nothing after the Anthonys opened it up.. Lab Error is now a possible as well.

Then how do we account for the car trunk still smelling like decomposition after 2 years? If Caylee's body was saturated with chloroform from prolonged use, that decomp would have continued to exude the chemical.

Have you seen the picture of what was seen under light testing in the trunk after it was cleaned? I dont' believe CA only sprayed the doll and put dryer sheets in the car. She cleaned that trunk.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6281645&postcount=838"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner[/ame]

 

[MissJames]

Ok, I hear you. But, if that were really the case, Casey killed her child because she was going to tell the truth about Casey, why don't other pathological liars kill their children?

I'm sure we all know someone that makes up ridiculous lies, non-sense lies, exaggerations, etc. I'm sure we all know someone like this who also has children. What happens to those kids??? They lie for their parents and learn to lie as adults. Those people don't kill their children out of fear of telling the truth. And, in that frame of mind, why wouldn't they kill the people they are with who know the truth out of fear of the truth coming out? For instance, Casey was lying to her mom that she was in Jacksonville, but was instead out partying with her friends. Her brother was hot on her trail, and so was his fiance. Why wouldn't Casey just kill any one of them to cover up her truth? Instead, she kills her child to cover up her truth?

Many of them do .I was a foster parent for 17 years and took babies who might have died .One 2 yr old was resucitated twice after he got to the ER (a great aunt brought him).He weighed 12 lbs at almost 3 yrs old and had a medical condition.Mom pretended to everyone that he no longer had the condition so she didn't have to stay home and care for him.When he got too sick she put him in his crib and lied some more,until a suspicious relative came to see for herself.
I could tell you many more,like the ones who were shaken until there brains bled and their retinas were torn. For what? Crying when mommy or daddy wanted to be left alone.How about the 7 week old with the broken femur and brain damage from being thrown around?
Their families tried to lie for them ,too.

 

[Chablis]

And whoever purposely deleted the chloroform search files from the computer means whoever did the deleting knew it was not an innocent search.

Or, when you share a computer with every member of your family, you clear the histroy so everyone is not in your business. A very common thing.

 

[beccalecca1]

I would need to go back and re-listen to the testimony Dr. Vass gave, so I apologize in advance if I misspeak. But recalling from memory, I am pretty sure Dr. Vass said he was speaking on a conservative side when he said only 3 were found. It was more, but he eliminated those because they could
have been caused by something else.

And IMO, an important thing to remember is that the body was inside TWO heavy duty black trash bags and then inside a canvas bag that was lined with a waterproof, plastic-like material. It wasn't like the pig experiment that Dr. Huntington did where he just put an unwrapped pig in the trunk.

I don't remember word for word his testimony either. I do remember though, when Dr. Furton was on the stand, Vass' report was analyzed and that is when I realized the odds behind the chemicals. So, in all honesty, it came from Furton's testimony. I'm sure though, if his testimony on Vass' report was inaccurate, JA would've been jumping at an objection.

And, if it were in 2 black trash bags and canvas lined with waterproof material, how would any amount of decomposition fluid get in the trunk?

 

[Chablis]

Then how do we account for the car trunk still smelling like decomposition after 2 years? If Caylee's body was saturated with chloroform from prolonged use, that decomp would have continued to exude the chemical.

Have you seen the picture of what was seen under light testing in the trunk after it was cleaned? I dont' believe CA only sprayed the doll and put dryer sheets in the car. She cleaned that trunk.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

I totally agree she cleaned the trunk and put her child in the car and drove around. But I also know Cindy cleaned that car as well. I believe Caylee was in the trunk decomposing for days.

 

[MissJames]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but isn't Tide with Bleach safe for colors? Meaning it wouldn't stain the liner?

That's not a chlorine bleach,thus no chloroform .

 

[Baznme]

I do not believe there was duct tape over her mouth and nose. It was NOT proven. I don't care what Dr G said. The media, prosecution, and all over this forum stated that as a fact. But the fact is that the tape was stuck in ONE side of her hair. It could have just been garbage already there. It could have been used to close the canvas bag. It could have been anywhere and once RK disturbed the remains by lifting the bag and "tilting" the skull, you just could not rely on that evidence. It's tainted/contaminated, period. Even without RK, this was flooded, animals were feeding and scattering. Anything could have repositioned that tape. And that super imposed little video was crazy IMO. Even it showed/ moved the tape to several locations to show that over mouth and nose wasn't the ony position the tape could have been in. JMOO

Everything you said here is true. Except........the duct tape was still in the shape of the jawbone, over the mouth and the shape of the nose where they "had" been. The professionals didn't make this stuff up. It is what it is. I don't think it was what killed her. I believe in my heart it was to stage the kidnapping or to prevent fluids from leaking any more than they had already in the trunk. I do believe it was accidental but only because KC used the chloroform to sedate her and neglected to check on her child. She perished and the coverup began the next morning at the house.

 

[beccalecca1]

Wow. I think we have a mistaken for GA and Towyard guy.Then we go off to Dr Vass and Co. and the science.I'm sorry I was curious about testimony people had a about the smell in regards to what their nose told them.Forgive me if I was unclear.But so far I don't see anyone lying. Just would like your opinion. Thanks.

I think it was more mistaken identity, not necessarily lying. The only person I would see who could possibly benefit by lying (which is usually why people lie in the first place), is George if he truly were involved.

Dr. Vass and Co. was mistaken by suggestion I'm guessing.

The only thing that I'm having a hard time swallowing is those cadaver dogs. I know it's not an exact science with them, but the dogs have never false alerted before, so why would they now. And, they're the only ones I know that wouldn't have a biased opinion. Out of all the testimony (including the experts), the dogs alerting is the only thing that had me thinking there may have been a dead body in the trunk.

 

[legalmania]

That's not a chlorine bleach,thus no chloroform .

Just to add there was no ingredients at all in the house or sheds that could be used to make chloroform.

 

[gngr~snap]

And whoever purposely deleted the chloroform search files from the computer means whoever did the deleting knew it was not an innocent search.

I think Lee cause KC was with Yuri

Lee's testimony-

FG questioning LA about 7/15 and his computer use

LA says he was searching where sawgrass apartments were

FG asks if he deleted any of the internet history

LA says no


they have what time it was deleted.
This is exactly why I believe KC's memory is fuzzy and she'wake up with her bra undone. She remembers Lee standing there watching her and nothing else?

gives me the creeps

 

[MissJames]

I don't remember word for word his testimony either. I do remember though, when Dr. Furton was on the stand, Vass' report was analyzed and that is when I realized the odds behind the chemicals. So, in all honesty, it came from Furton's testimony. I'm sure though, if his testimony on Vass' report was inaccurate, JA would've been jumping at an objection.

And, if it were in 2 black trash bags and canvas lined with waterproof material, how would any amount of decomposition fluid get in the trunk?

Dr. Furton ...........You should go back and watch the hearings when the DT were qualifying their experts for trial . Compare Dr. Vass and Dr. Furton. I thought it was obvious that Furton was far less qualified and that JA showed that Dr. Vass's 12 years of experience far exceeded anything Furton did(actually ,Furton didn't DO anything.One of his students did. ) Dr. Furton's testimony wasn't based on first hand knowledge .Did you know he was actually brought in as an expert on cadaver dogs :floorlaugh:
He's WATCHED SOME train (hands off) and read a training manuel. :crazy:
I really thought JA did a great job exposing all those tidbits.:waitasec:

 

[Baznme]

I don't remember word for word his testimony either. I do remember though, when Dr. Furton was on the stand, Vass' report was analyzed and that is when I realized the odds behind the chemicals. So, in all honesty, it came from Furton's testimony. I'm sure though, if his testimony on Vass' report was inaccurate, JA would've been jumping at an objection.

And, if it were in 2 black trash bags and canvas lined with waterproof material, how would any amount of decomposition fluid get in the trunk?

It was just a canvas laundry bag, not waterproof to my knowledge. The trash bags either ripped while lifting in or out of the car on the trunk latch OR the fluid leaked onto the trunk carpet BEFORE she was bagged, which is what I believe. There were 2 napkins in the bag of trash from Tony's place with adipocere on them also, so she tried to wipe some up before getting back to the house.

 

[gngr~snap]

Or, when you share a computer with every member of your family, you clear the histroy so everyone is not in your business. A very common thing.

It was deleted specifically on 7/15 while the cops were there
No one in the home had cleared the history for 4 1/2 years!

 

[pcrum12]

There were Not any bleach stains/spots/discoloration on the trunk carpet

I use Tide with Bleach on my colored clothes. I assume the composite of color safe bleach would be different than regular bleach. Wonder if color safe beach could still produce chloroform? Regardless, Im inclined to not believe that there were high levels of chloroform in the trunk. And didn't the OCSO guy actually take the air samples - two I think. Sent one to Vass and sent the other to FBI? So they were taken at the same time. IIRC. I didn't buy Dr. Vass testimony. I did except the FBI guy, can't remember his name at the moment. He stated chloroform levels were normal and nothing unusual.

 

[beccalecca1]

Many of them do .I was a foster parent for 17 years and took babies who might have died .One 2 yr old was resucitated twice after he got to the ER (a great aunt brought him).He weighed 12 lbs at almost 3 yrs old and had a medical condition.Mom pretended to everyone that he no longer had the condition so she didn't have to stay home and care for him.When he got too sick she put him in his crib and lied some more,until a suspicious relative came to see for herself.
I could tell you many more,like the ones who were shaken until there brains bled and their retinas were torn. For what? Crying when mommy or daddy wanted to be left alone.How about the 7 week old with the broken femur and brain damage from being thrown around?
Their families tried to lie for them ,too.

That is truly sad. First I want to thank you for fostering those children, I hope that they could get some sort of reassurance that the world isn't a horrible place after the trauma they went through!



You're comparing truly abused children to Caylee, who showed no signs of being abused. That is what my point is. Neglectful and abusive parents are usually like that long before there is a death. They're the type that have CPS, neighbors, relatives, friends, teachers, what have you, on their backs. There is signs of stuff like that. Like you pointed out yourself, a suspicious relative came in to check on the 12 lb 3 year old (which is just completely unimaginable!). Caylee wasn't in that environment.

 

[Baznme]

Just to add there was no ingredients at all in the house or sheds that could be used to make chloroform.

I think she was getting it from somewhere. I have my suspicions it was one of her boyfriends. Which one was it that had the pic on his myspace? Tracy (the bodyguard) made reference to a conversation with KC regarding street drugs and chloroform was mentioned by KC.

 

[mendz]

Everything you said here is true. Except........the duct tape was still in the shape of the jawbone, over the mouth and the shape of the nose where they "had" been. The professionals didn't make this stuff up. It is what it is.

snipped we also have not seen the pictures of the skull which jeff ashton, at least, believed to be very powerful evidence.

 

[gngr~snap]

Just to add there was no ingredients at all in the house or sheds that could be used to make chloroform.

Lee could have taken stuff to his house. They had a month to destroy any evidence.
I think there was chloroform in GA's favorite gas can he'd had for 20 years that "was a part of him" I think he dumped whatever was left before the cops showed up ???maybe they came and got the can on Aug 1 returned it then recollected it in Dec after Caylee's remains were found. and he was pissed! over a gas can...
moo

 

[pcrum12]

Ok I realize that I didn't answer your direct question. So let me throw one back at ya.

Conversely, since we know that chloroform is volatile, give me a reasonable example of how detectable amounts of chloroform would be found in a trunk that's been aired out? It's not like we've got chloroform falling out of the sky, kwim?

My opinion is that the body was in the car and the chloroform levels were normal for decomposition. JMO though.