Forensic evidence

[Ames]

After she was slammed against that bathtub, yes she was intended to die.

Right on....tell it like it is, Solace...

 

[Toltec]

This is the sequence of phone calls verified BEFORE police arrive:

911 call placed by Patsy

Call to the Whites placed by Patsy

Call to the Fernies placed by Patsy

Call to Rod Westmoreland placed by John

My question is this....While John is reading the ransom note, Patsy is on the phone with the 911 operator. She then calls the Whites and Fernies.

John runs upstairs to dress while Patsy walks outside to wait for the Police to arrive.

When does John place the call to Rod Westmoreland???

If the police are able to read the phone records they would be able to know the who of the what of the where.

 

[Solace]

This is the sequence of phone calls verified BEFORE police arrive:

911 call placed by Patsy

Call to the Whites placed by Patsy

Call to the Fernies placed by Patsy

Call to Rod Westmoreland placed by John

My question is this....While John is reading the ransom note, Patsy is on the phone with the 911 operator. She then calls the Whites and Fernies.

John runs upstairs to dress while Patsy walks outside to wait for the Police to arrive.

When does John place the call to Rod Westmoreland???

If the police are able to read the phone records they would be able to know the who of the what of the where.

Probably when he ran upstairs - he didn't want to upset Patsy - she had been through enough. Besides, he wanted to make sure that he got a lawyer for himself right away - that would be Mike Bynum showing up at the Fernsies or whoever they stayed with.

 

[JMO8778]

OH YEAH, thats right...I was thinking that he had someone drop off the money somewhere, and that the KIDNAPPERS didn't pick it up. I don't know WHERE I got that from, a dream or something, I guess. But, you are right...he never picked it up. Because he knew there wasn't a reason too....guess he thought "there is NO kidnapper, why would I get money and drop it off to an invisible kidnapper?" That money would have just sat there, waiting for the kidnapper to pick it up, and since there was not kidnapper....it would probably still be sitting there today, ten years later.

I've often wondered if JR hadn't 'found' JB,what would have happened?Would the house have been searched again by LE,or would they just have thought...oh well...they alerted authorities,and no phone call...she must be dead.As slack as they were being,I believe it would have been the latter.And I think JR thought so as well,and they wanted some closure and an end to it ie-..a funeral,and to lay her to rest beside her 1/2 sister...so he found her.

 

[JMO8778]

And if it had been a real kidnapping, John Ramsey would have picked up the money. I have never yet seen one interviewer ask him why he never picked up the money or had someone bring him the money.

And who would kidnap a child and risk serious jail time over a measly sum of $118,000 anyway?!

I've also never heard him give an explanation as to WHY they called LE when the note said not to.(B/c that was supposed to be the reason 'why' she was killed).

 

[Solace]

I've often wondered if JR hadn't 'found' JB,what would have happened?Would the house have been searched again by LE,or would they just have thought...oh well...they alerted authorities,and no phone call...she must be dead.As slack as they were being,I believe it would have been the latter.And I think JR thought so as well,and they wanted some closure and an end to it ie-..a funeral,and to lay her to rest beside her 1/2 sister...so he found her.

No, because if she had not been found, the FBI would have taken over, as they always do in a kidnapping and they would have found her, contrary to what UK has stated that John was hoping for.

 

[JMO8778]

No, because if she had not been found, the FBI would have taken over, as they always do in a kidnapping and they would have found her, contrary to what UK has stated that John was hoping for.

Ok,thx,I didn't know that.I'm guessing they would have cleared the house out(as should have been done anyway)and done a thorough search.Still,I wonder how long that would have taken..would they have waited till after 'tomorrow bet. 8-10am' b/f they did anything,after no KN called?

 

[Solace]

Ok,thx,I didn't know that.I'm guessing they would have cleared the house out(as should have been done anyway)and done a thorough search.Still,I wonder how long that would have taken..would they have waited till after 'tomorrow bet. 8-10am' b/f they did anything,after no KN called?

The FBI, contrary to what Mr. Ramsey would like us all to believe, was THERE, and arrived as they (the Ramseys and friends) were all around JonBenet in the living room and he said to the detectives on the scene "look to the parents". They would have stayed and they would have found her. And Mr. Ramsey knows that since he was reading John Douglas' book - he knows just what the FBI is capable of.

If you have ever seen Bill Kurtis' Ramsey documentary, he opens with John Ramsey sweating and saying the FBI never showed and then he switches to the FBI agent (Ron Wood) who was on the scene, saying "yes I was there" and then the agent goes on to describe the War and Peace of ransom notes. I believe his name is Ron Wood. Kurtis is the only one who has ever done that. I do not believe he confronts Ramsey, he just shows the one side and then the true side.

 

[Albert18]

I find it interesting what John did and didn't do that morning.

He is a take charge kind of guy yet Patsy calls 911.

Patsy is left to greet the police when they arrive.

Patsy apparently made false statements in both those duties.

John stays in the background and makes the phone calls you can't get in trouble for.

We can argue who did what in the staging but we know for a fact the final two steps that morning, the 911 call and greeting the police, were done by Patsy.

 

[Solace]

I find it interesting what John did and didn't do that morning.

He is a take charge kind of guy yet Patsy calls 911.

Patsy is left to greet the police when they arrive.

Patsy apparently made false statements in both those duties.

John stays in the background and makes the phone calls you can't get in trouble for.

We can argue who did what in the staging but we know for a fact the final two steps that morning, the 911 call and greeting the police, were done by Patsy.

So John did not greet the police??????

 

[Albert18]

I've always been under the impression Patsy greeted the police but I'm not sure where I got that idea.

I know in the Vanity Fair article Office French says he was greeted by Patsy.

From the JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia website:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/December 26

"French himself stated in a Vanity Fair interview that after being greeted by Patsy on arrival, "John Ramsey directed me through the house and pointed out a three-page handwritten note which was laid on the wooden floor just west of the kitchen area"

 

[DeeDee249]

One of the many things that bothers me about JR's actions that day - why would anyone call to offer condolences? This "kidnapping" hadn't been made public yet (not including, of course, the group of friends/advocates/clergy who were called that morning by the Rs). How would the governor have known about it? Maybe called by one of the R's defense lawyers? Well- that's even more suspicious, because that would mean JR called his lawyers right after making the 911 call.
Now just try to think of how many parents of truly kidnapped children call DEFENSE ATTORNEYS right after they call police?
And the mail...sigh...the R house had a MAIL SLOT in the front door. (it was later used to start a fire by one of many players in this tragedy- the one who worked as a morgue driver and stole the manifest with the records of delivery of JBR's corpse- his name escapes me.)
That mail slot means the mail was delivered to the floor. NOT to an mail box outside the home (which wouldn't take an hour anyway).
And another thing...if you are taking your family away for a week or so, wouldn't you STOP YOUR MAIL? But with a mail slot, you wouldn't really have to do that. No one would know the mail was piling up on the floor. That might be a reason for JR to go out to get the (stopped) mail, but even that seems fishy. They were supposed to leave that day. There is no mail delivery on Christmas. So there was 1 day of mail to pick up. On the day your 6-year-old daugher is kidnapped (and you were caught trying to make plans to leave the state anyway) WHY would you leave the house and risk missing that "phone call" from the kidnappers? For what? A few Christmas sale flyers? Ridiculous.

 

[DeeDee249]

I get furious just thinking about things like this. Detectives are supposedly trained to OBSERVE many things at a crime scene. I know LA was in over her head, I know she was alone and asked for help, but she violated SO much of what is basic police procedure, I just can't imagine how she got to the position of detective. And I don't view LA unsympathetically...I know she was placed in a situation that was difficult to contain and she quickly lost control of it.

 

[JMO8778]

One of the many things that bothers me about JR's actions that day - why would anyone call to offer condolences? This "kidnapping" hadn't been made public yet (not including, of course, the group of friends/advocates/clergy who were called that morning by the Rs). How would the governor have known about it? Maybe called by one of the R's defense lawyers? Well- that's even more suspicious, because that would mean JR called his lawyers right after making the 911 call.
Now just try to think of how many parents of truly kidnapped children call DEFENSE ATTORNEYS right after they call police?
And the mail...sigh...the R house had a MAIL SLOT in the front door. (it was later used to start a fire by one of many players in this tragedy- the one who worked as a morgue driver and stole the manifest with the records of delivery of JBR's corpse- his name escapes me.)
That mail slot means the mail was delivered to the floor. NOT to an mail box outside the home (which wouldn't take an hour anyway).
And another thing...if you are taking your family away for a week or so, wouldn't you STOP YOUR MAIL? But with a mail slot, you wouldn't really have to do that. No one would know the mail was piling up on the floor. That might be a reason for JR to go out to get the (stopped) mail, but even that seems fishy. They were supposed to leave that day. There is no mail delivery on Christmas. So there was 1 day of mail to pick up. On the day your 6-year-old daugher is kidnapped (and you were caught trying to make plans to leave the state anyway) WHY would you leave the house and risk missing that "phone call" from the kidnappers? For what? A few Christmas sale flyers? Ridiculous.

In their book,he says he didn't leave the house,but checked and read the mail that came through the mail slot.But,he did go unaccounted for during that time,for who knows how long,so we can only guess as to what he was doing.He says he went to the basement to check on the 'broken window' he suddenly remembered.So it seems he did go to the basement,but as to what he was doing there is anyone's guess.

 

[JMO8778]

I get furious just thinking about things like this. Detectives are supposedly trained to OBSERVE many things at a crime scene. I know LA was in over her head, I know she was alone and asked for help, but she violated SO much of what is basic police procedure, I just can't imagine how she got to the position of detective. And I don't view LA unsympathetically...I know she was placed in a situation that was difficult to contain and she quickly lost control of it.

I totally agree..basic procedures were violated,including allowing JR to search the house alone,moving JB's body,and then she continued her ineptness later with giving the R's attorneys lists of q's that tipped them off,such as 'what did JB have to eat?' and a copy of the RN.WHAT????
Where were some of these ppl trained???? Like on the party at the 23rd when Susan Stine answered the intercom ...I can NOT imagine a scenerio around here where at the very least,police wouldn't say 'open the door maim,we need to talk to you in person'.I just can't.
And on Susan's part? I can't imagine anyone around here being so disrespectful as to not even open the door and talk in person when police arrived.
And that reminds me...I could tell Jams wasn't from around here even b/f I found out she wasn't,b/c anyone from around here doesn't act like that..WE have basic respect for the law,as well as personal honor,decency and integrity.There were no 'borg' police,only frustrated detectives trying to do their job and serve justice to JB,while being stiffled and blocked every which way possible by Team Ramsey.And being a sahm doesn't automatically make someone honest and down to earth.Far from it.(I certainly hope she didn't teach her kids anything about criminal techniques and justice.She's quite far off on that subject).
As always,pls delete if I'm not allowed to say that,thx.

 

[Albert18]

Here is what I don't understand or maybe I do understand but just can't believe.

I get the impression the law enforcement people who showed up that day had pretty much figured it out that there was no kidnapping, no intruder, no killer on the loose. So what had to happen next was to determine what really happened.

That wasn't done. I don't believe in that magnitude of incompetence. The effect of John's phone calls had to be kicking in by the afternoon of the 26th.

But if the police would have had their wits about them early on, it may not have mattered. In an analysis Delmar England wrote, he said that if the police had met the busload of friends at the door and told them to go away, the case may have been broken right there. When you think about it, it makes no sense for the police to have allowed those people in the house. All the police knew at that point was that JonBenet had been snatched from her home, the very home you now have a herd of people milling around in.

 

[Solace]

Here is what I don't understand or maybe I do understand but just can't believe.

I get the impression the law enforcement people who showed up that day had pretty much figured it out that there was no kidnapping, no intruder, no killer on the loose. So what had to happen next was to determine what really happened.Albert, Officer French, who arrived first said "something is not right". But word was sent out that this was an influential couple. The lawyers and detectives were 'in place' that afternoon and were interviewing people. The incompetence is not incompetence in my opinion, the DA's office was taking orders from someone and someone said lay off. In Steven Thomas' book about half way through or more he is told to get warrants and each time he gets one, he is told to redo it. The DA stalls again and again. He is refused wire taps for the home. Eller was awful in my opinion. His ego got in the way. Thomas loved him. I disagree with Thomas on that one. The only thing I wish Thomas had done was to go to the media sooner and say he is being stalled at every turn - that is easier said than done, but it would have gone a long way towards helping him attain his goal which was to get Patsy and John in for questioning on his terms. But he did not realize that he would eventually quit the job because of this case. So it is easier said than done.

That wasn't done. I don't believe in that magnitude of incompetence. The effect of John's phone calls had to be kicking in by the afternoon of the 26th.

But if the police would have had their wits about them early on, it may not have mattered. In an analysis Delmar England wrote, he said that if the police had met the busload of friends at the door and told them to go away, the case may have been broken right there. When you think about it, it makes no sense for the police to have allowed those people in the house. All the police knew at that point was that JonBenet had been snatched from her home, the very home you now have a herd of people milling around in.

Detective Arndt was INTENTIONALLY left alone in that house.

 

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by UKGuy
What did she do, who knows, maybe all she is guilty of is staging?

Since the forensic evidence indicates that Patsy placed the fake garrote around JonBenet's neck, and this was done while JonBenet was still alive but unconscious, isn't Patsy then responsible for the death of JonBenet?

The forensic evidence (Patsy 's jacket fibers in the wrappings of the garrote, on the duct tape and in the paint tray, the ransom note in her handwriting, clumsily tied knots) implicates her as the main stager of the scene, and imo it is logical to assume that she was involved in the killing of her daughter.

I find a scenario highly unlikely in which John not only would confess to Patsy of having killed JB, but also, on top of that, then ask his wife to stage the scene.

 

[JMO8778]

Here is what I don't understand or maybe I do understand but just can't believe.

I get the impression the law enforcement people who showed up that day had pretty much figured it out that there was no kidnapping, no intruder, no killer on the loose. So what had to happen next was to determine what really happened.

That wasn't done. I don't believe in that magnitude of incompetence. The effect of John's phone calls had to be kicking in by the afternoon of the 26th.

IMO it started b/f then,as I posted above,LE did not insist SS open the door and talk to them in person on the 23rd,to make sure everything was OK.It seems they had already been told to back off this family???

 

[rashomon]

why wouldn't they be? I do find it odd he tried to account for his underwear fibers in her room though.

Were there actually found fibers from John's underwear in JonBenet's room?