Forensic evidence

[Solace]

JMO8778,

I do not say the search warrant explicitly states that child , vhs tapes, cine-film, camcorders, photographs etc were to be sought out.

e.g.

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant


Also:


January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado
http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
Charlevoix, Michigan
March 06, 1997
http://www.acandyrose.com/03061997warrant.htm

Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
Charlevoix, Michigan
January 05, 1997
http://www.acandyrose.com/01051997warrant.htm

UK,

" the fact search warrants were issued for child indicates what the nature of those photographs were e.g. if they had only been typical domestic pictures why the search warrants with the results redacted"

You are suggesting that the pictures that were found were . You have no basis in fact for that assumption and it leads the investigation into a completely different area. If there were child pictures of JonBenet, we would have heard about it by now. Alex Hunter would have went for a trial - he wanted ironclad evidence and that would have done it. If there were child pictures and he did not prosecute, and they had been leaked, it would have been over for him and he would know that.

Lets deal with facts, not suppositions.

 

[coloradokares]

UK,

" the fact search warrants were issued for child indicates what the nature of those photographs were e.g. if they had only been typical domestic pictures why the search warrants with the results redacted"

You are suggesting that the pictures that were found were . You have no basis in fact for that assumption and it leads the investigation into a completely different area. If there were child pictures of JonBenet, we would have heard about it by now. Alex Hunter would have went for a trial - he wanted ironclad evidence and that would have done it. If there were child pictures and he did not prosecute, and they had been leaked, it would have been over for him and he would know that.

Lets deal with facts, not suppositions.

I dont beleive that Alex Hunter ever intended to go to trial . Remember he said they were nice people, even though he thought Patsy guilty, I think if they would have ever have admitted quillt, he would of found the way to make it a misdemeanor, but they would not admit and he would not prosecute this politically connected couple for first degree. They won. Mary Lacey keeps the status quo. This is only my opinion constitutionally I am still allowed that, right?

 

[JMO8778]

Depending on who is deciding; there are many things that could be seen as pornographic as far as children go. A 6-year old girl dressed only in a shirt and naked from the waist down could be. Even if she is not posed in a sexual way or engaging in sexual activity. Children in underwear would not be, unless they WERE engaged in sexual activity. There are some cases where 1-Hour Photo shops and the like report people who are developing pics of their naked babies (y'know, the typical stuff like on a blanket, playing in the bath, innocent things that parents might do.

that makes me wonder if any instant cameras were found..or since they took a piece of black sheet metal,any photo developing equipment.

 

[JMO8778]

I think that scarf is a little creepy too. Acandyrose quotes DOI, p. 40, "Then it was John (sic) turn. He had recently purchased a beautiful silk scarf, and he tucked it around JonBenet as if surrounding her with a final blanket of love."

Leaving aside the phrase 'final blanket' and its association with the crime scene, I have to wonder about this scarf.

If JR is 'tucking' the scarf like a blanket, I'm guessing it's not a men's small rectangular scarf, but rather something you'd give a woman, a larger square scarf, which often measure between 30 and 35 inches on each side.

Which raises some questions:
1) How "recently" had JR purchased this scarf? Remember, PR had to have a dept. store send her clothes to wear for the funeral, because they had left the house with nothing--nothing, that is, but the bags and bags of stuff Pam Paugh carted out with the help of the police. Was the scarf one of the items on the list for Pam to get? If so, why?

2) Who was the scarf purchased for? PR? JR's older daughter? Whoever it 'belonged' to, why bury it with JBR? Was there some forensic evidence associated with the scarf that made it a good idea to bury it? (And even to settle the 'stun gun' question the R's wouldn't hear of an exhumation--just another of the many things that make you say "Hmmm.")

3) Was the scarf purchased after the murder, specifically for the funeral? Again, why? If you wanted to bury your daughter with some comforting blanket, why not purchase a blanket? Why an expensive silk scarf? And when was it purchased? After all, PR had to have a dept. store send her clothes to try on--the R's weren't doing a whole lot of shopping in the days immediately following the murder.

My guess is that the scarf was purchased before the murder, and was in the house on the night of the 25th, which makes it all the more strange that JR would choose this item, of all possible items, to bury with his daughter.

It's odd,for sure.Why not choose a fav toy or something?
Also,someone pointed out,when I first came here,that the items left with her in the casket all start with SBTC,(as in the RN)....scarf,bracelet,tiara,and cat.
I've always wondered about the cat as well...it was said someone brought the wrong one,and the right one was retrieved and buried with her,but did she really have 2 of them?If so,why not leave her with both(one on each side of her)?

 

[Ames]

21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --

This interview portion says that the photographs were located in the Laundry room...not actually TAKEN in the laundry room....

and the interview portion below was the following day...

1 THOMAS HANEY: Today is Wednesday,
2 June 24, 1998 and the time is approximately
3 9:03 a.m. Again we are present in the
4 Broomfield Police Department. Present is
5 Patricia Ramsey (INAUDIBLE) and how did you
6 spend yesterday, how did you feel?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Fine, great. I
8 think, a couple of things that I thought about,
9 that I wanted to clarify maybe. You were asking
10 about -- particularly about the pictures of
11 JonBenet in the basement, and I remember that I
12 had taken some Xerox copies of her portfolio
13 pictures, you know, studio head shots. And
14 there was a paper cutter down there, and that I
15 used, and that --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be it?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: That could be it.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: I haven't seen the
19 pictures.

 

[Ames]

Is there anywhere else I can read about it further,do you know?This is all I've been able to find on the photo's in the basement.

Hi...I just posted (above this post)...the interview about the pictures TAKEN in the laundry room.

 

[JMO8778]

Ok,thx,I still have to wonder about the part where she was asked about 'cutesy' pics being taken in the laundry room though,and also it is asked if JR goes down there:




21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had
8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in
9 there? I know everybody would have access, but
10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in
11 there? Would John go down there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody
13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and
14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.
15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not
16 in the laundry, really, area.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides
18 you use that laundry room?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda
20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or
21 something, because those were big heavy-duty
22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in
23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down
24 there.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0188
1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

 

[Ames]

Ok,thx,I still have to wonder about the part where she was asked about 'cutesy' pics being taken in the laundry room though,and also it is asked if JR goes down there:




21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had
8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in
9 there? I know everybody would have access, but
10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in
11 there? Would John go down there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody
13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and
14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.
15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not
16 in the laundry, really, area.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides
18 you use that laundry room?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda
20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or
21 something, because those were big heavy-duty
22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in
23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down
24 there.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0188
1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

I can't figure out why he would ask this...when at the first of the interview, when Patsy asks..."Taken of her in the laundry room?"...Haney says..."No, no..photographs of her located in the laundry room". Unless, he wondered why she would think that he meant, photos actually taken in the laundry room...since she said..."TAKEN OF HER IN THE LAUNDRY ROOM?" Maybe he thought that he would probe her farther, and see if there was something that he had missed.

 

[Solace]

I dont beleive that Alex Hunter ever intended to go to trial . Remember he said they were nice people, even though he thought Patsy guilty, I think if they would have ever have admitted quillt, he would of found the way to make it a misdemeanor, but they would not admit and he would not prosecute this politically connected couple for first degree. They won. Mary Lacey keeps the status quo. This is only my opinion constitutionally I am still allowed that, right?

Colorado,

I do not think he ever intended to go to trial either. HOWEVER, if there were pornographic pictures of JonBenet and he saw them and Eller saw them, it would be a different story. This is out and out evidence of a child being abused and he would have to deal with it. All the evidence, although most people find it extremely incriminating, if one had a very good lawyer, such as Jerry Spence, I could see the Ramseys getting off. But if a prosecutor were to produce pornographic pictures of JonBenet at a trial, this is a shoe in for the prosecutor. Alex Hunter is not going to take a chance that pictures such as that would be released and he would have to answer for it. The picture do not exist in my opinion.

P.S. I hope you are feeling well.

 

[coloradokares]

Colorado,

I do not think he ever intended to go to trial either. HOWEVER, if there were pornographic pictures of JonBenet and he saw them and Eller saw them, it would be a different story. This is out and out evidence of a child being abused and he would have to deal with it. All the evidence, although most people find it extremely incriminating, if one had a very good lawyer, such as Jerry Spence, I could see the Ramseys getting off. But if a prosecutor were to produce pornographic pictures of JonBenet at a trial, this is a shoe in for the prosecutor. Alex Hunter is not going to take a chance that pictures such as that would be released and he would have to answer for it. The picture do not exist in my opinion.

P.S. I hope you are feeling well.

I think they had it set in stone, deep six and bury in a warehouse and do not find actionable anything...They had enough, but calls were made from the begining and nothing was ever done, Its a true statement that Scott Peterson is on death row with far less that they had. IMHO

 

[Solace]

I think they had it set in stone, deep six and bury in a warehouse and do not find actionable anything...They had enough, but calls were made from the begining and nothing was ever done, Its a true statement that Scott Peterson is on death row with far less that they had. IMHO

I agree with you. I think calls were made from the beginning. However, they would not have brought these pictures up if they were pornographic and were to be deep sixed. And remember Trip De Muth is in the Ramsey Court these days, doing whatever one does in their Court. We can say it is either for love or money that he is there or truly believes it. But he did question Patsy about photos being in the basement. Means nothing - people store things in their basement all the time. Does not mean they were .

 

[Ames]

I agree with you. I think calls were made from the beginning. However, they would not have brought these pictures up if they were pornographic and were to be deep sixed. And remember Trip De Muth is in the Ramsey Court these days, doing whatever one does in their Court. We can say it is either for love or money that he is there or truly believes it. But he did question Patsy about photos being in the basement. Means nothing - people store things in their basement all the time. Does not mean they were .

I don't believe that they were either, because it would have been brought up in the interview, and she would have been "hammered" because of it. I don't think that a simple..."I don't know"....or "you will have to ask John"...would have done. She would have been badgered...until she came up with a reasonable, believable response. And I don't believe it would have been a subtle question either...it would have been more like..."Patsy, there were some child shots of JB found in the laundry room, what can you tell me about those?" And then, he wouldn't have stopped...until she gave him a straight answer.

 

[Solace]

I don't believe that they were either, because it would have been brought up in the interview, and she would have been "hammered" because of it. I don't think that a simple..."I don't know"....or "you will have to ask John"...would have done. She would have been badgered...until she came up with a reasonable, believable response. And I don't believe it would have been a subtle question either...it would have been more like..."Patsy, there were some child shots of JB found in the laundry room, what can you tell me about those?" And then, he wouldn't have stopped...until she gave him a straight answer.

And another thing regarding , it was bad enough that Steve Thomas was being stopped at every turn BUT if he had seen pornographic pictures of her, he would have made it known. That is just my opinion on Steve Thomas. I think he is a very honorable man and that this case touched him and that he truly felt very bad for JonBenet. I don't think he would let slide.

 

[Albert18]

I think they had it set in stone, deep six and bury in a warehouse and do not find actionable anything...They had enough, but calls were made from the begining and nothing was ever done, Its a true statement that Scott Peterson is on death row with far less that they had. IMHO

Absolutely.

I have always wondered how Chief Koby and DA Hunter rationalized in their own minds what they did.

They couldn't have been told by a Ramsey lawyer what really happened but they had to have known quite early there was no killer on the loose in Boulder just by looking at the evidence and what the Ramsey's and their lawyers were doing. But how did they know JonBenet wasn't intentionally killed by someone in the family? Did they not care?

 

[coloradokares]

I don't believe that they were either, because it would have been brought up in the interview, and she would have been "hammered" because of it. I don't think that a simple..."I don't know"....or "you will have to ask John"...would have done. She would have been badgered...until she came up with a reasonable, believable response. And I don't believe it would have been a subtle question either...it would have been more like..."Patsy, there were some child shots of JB found in the laundry room, what can you tell me about those?" And then, he wouldn't have stopped...until she gave him a straight answer.

I dont think they were , but no matter what they were if they have it from the interview that John came up from the basement not out of the shower to run and get down on all fours to read in his fruit the looms they are not goiing to arrest them, then or now for anytime for any other reason; I couuld just wretch!! there are so many admissions they were lying what would it take......confession and to only an accidental thing ! They walked and Jon Benet will never have justice.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Absolutely.

I have always wondered how Chief Koby and DA Hunter rationalized in their own minds what they did.

They couldn't have been told by a Ramsey lawyer what really happened but they had to have known quite early there was no killer on the loose in Boulder just by looking at the evidence and what the Ramsey's and their lawyers were doing. But how did they know JonBenet wasn't intentionally killed by someone in the family? Did they not care?

I forget who it was, but someone who knew his stuff (I want to say BlueCrab) believed that Hunter believed that Burke Ramsey was the killer. It was in the way Burke was described as being or not being cleared by Hunter, and the time Hunter said, "You'd be surprised who we're looking at" or something like that. I'm sorry, I wish I had more detail than that.

Personally, I would believe that Hunter believed a Ramsey, specifically Burke, was the killer, and maybe he rationalized it by thinking that the killer was not a danger to anyone else. I don't know about Koby.

 

[Solace]

I forget who it was, but someone who knew his stuff (I want to say BlueCrab) believed that Hunter believed that Burke Ramsey was the killer. It was in the way Burke was described as being or not being cleared by Hunter, and the time Hunter said, "You'd be surprised who we're looking at" or something like that. I'm sorry, I wish I had more detail than that.

Personally, I would believe that Hunter believed a Ramsey, specifically Burke, was the killer, and maybe he rationalized it by thinking that the killer was not a danger to anyone else. I don't know about Koby.

I could be wrong but doesn't Steve Thomas say that Hunter believed Patsy did this thing?

 

[Solace]

I dont think they were , but no matter what they were if they have it from the interview that John came up from the basement not out of the shower to run and get down on all fours to read in his fruit the looms they are not goiing to arrest them, then or now for anytime for any other reason; I couuld just wretch!! there are so many admissions they were lying what would it take......confession and to only an accidental thing ! They walked and Jon Benet will never have justice.

I just spoke to that same question on another thread. Patsy could have been taken to mean she heard John scream the same way he heard John Scream when he found JonBenet and brought her up from the basement. It is just another way of defending the statement. I believe she was telling the truth in what she said and that she spoke of John screaming for her earlier that morning when he came up from the basement. But a lawyer could nullify it.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Good point, Solace. I believe that Hunter believed RDI, either way. They were so lucky that he was able to be bought as easily as he was. He behaved like he knew one of them did it and he needed to shelter them from the get-go, imo. JR hiring Hal Haddon, whom Hunter had been buddies with since way back when, was a brilliant move.

 

[JMO8778]

I just spoke to that same question on another thread. Patsy could have been taken to mean she heard John scream the same way he heard John Scream when he found JonBenet and brought her up from the basement. It is just another way of defending the statement. I believe she was telling the truth in what she said and that she spoke of John screaming for her earlier that morning when he came up from the basement. But a lawyer could nullify it.

John didn't scream though did he? I thought it was just FW that did.Or at least he was doing most of it.FW was genuinely in shock,no doubt.