France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[sherlockh]

If the girl got out and tried to run away then the door locked behind her. The doors were all locked so probably some kind of auto lock feature on the BMW? I don't know much about cars I read cartridges were also found inside the car. This means shots were fired from really close. Maybe there was a door open at some point.

 

[laurauk1]

This is all just a theory that i've been working through in my hesd and just my thoughts...

So we know that, as someone said earlier, it looks like the father had tried to get away in a hurry. To me, if this is the case, it seems the 7 year daughter must have been in the car initially when the danger first presented itself. If the daughter had been outside then I can't see them trying to make a get away. So this means at some point after the attackers arrived, the daughter left the car and I expect that's when she got attacked. I can't imagine she was told to leave by her parents but maybe when they were shot it was a natural reaction for her to open the car and try to get away. When she did this, gunman panicked and perhaps tried to stop her leaving. This could be what resulted in her injuries. They grabbed her roughly and she was struggling. Excessive force was used. Thethe hot her in the shoulder to stop her from escaping and calling for help. Given the head shots on the other victims, it seems that the shot on the 7 year old was not meant to kill but was meant to keep her there and stop her telling people until they got away. I expect this bit wasn't planned as they thought the girl wouldn't move and would just sit there in the car through fear. When she didn't do this they had to stop her. I think if they had meant to kill her they would have and they would also have killed the 4 year old. I don't believe it was a robbery so I think they would have known how many children were in the car. The doors being locked, as mentioned above I expect this would be an auto lock feature. After a certain period of time of them being unlocked with the engine running, they would lock automatically (even possibly when the door slammed shut at the 7 year old got out).

The French cyclist, I wonder if he arrived and that was when the child was injured too. Perhaps she tried to run towards him for help. He was then also killed as he had witnessed too much.

As a side thought, I wonder if the cyclist may have been shot first. He could have turned up near the beginning of the ordeal and they may have just killed him.

 

[laurauk1]

This article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200062/Amid-quiet.html names the grandmother as Suhaila Al-Allaf. It also states that she held a Swedish passport.

I have wondered about the Iraqi passport found and whose it was - i thought perhaps the grandmothers but apparently not and if she has a Swedish one, I'd imagine her daughter (the mother) would too. The father was a British citizen so presumably held a British passport. He may also have held an Iraqi passport - fair enough, but I wonder why he was travelling on his Iraqi one rather than his British when he was travelling to another EU country. I thought it would just have been easier to use the British one as there is basically free flow of citizens between the two countries. Travelling on a non-EU passport I'd imagine would be a bit more complicated.

I have a few friends who have duel nationality and they usually travel on the passport that is most similar/convenient to the country they are going to. So for example, one girl I know holds three passports - USA (birth country), one for an EU country (father born there) and one for an African country - where she grew up and where her mother is from. If she travelled to Africa she'd use that one, in Europe she'd use the European one and in USA or other places with close ties to there she'd use that one. I have no idea if this is common but it seems to make sense to me as it's just easier.

Suppose there could be any number of reasons why he would have his Iraqi passport with him - his GB one may have run out (citizenship obtained in 2002 - if passport also obtained around then then it could have just run out) or maybe he just had both passports together (although I'd be inclined to leave an important document not essential for that trip at home somewhere safe). But it was just something that stuck out to me at the beginning and now I've seen the grandmother has a Swedish passport, it reminded me.

Also does anyone if someone travelling on an Iraqi passport would find it easy to travel into France? Would they need a visa?

Forgive me if this is a dead end I'm going down but I thought I'd mention it in case it seems relevant.

 

[Lera213]

When I first started to read about this case my first thought was also Iranian hit. This guy's job was aerial photographs. Something Iran, Sierra would have concern over. Suppose this guy was a double spy? At any rate it could just be a local killing, someone heard he was living there and had a beef with him that lived in Iraq.

The one thing that I really stuck out to me is they went camping...sounds to me he got his family and they went into hiding, they might have known they were spotted and got in the car to leave...they got cornered in. Looks from the position of the car, he was trying to turn around or hid behind the tree line.

I don't think it was his brother, it could be but I don't think this man would take his family and go in hiding at a camp ground if it was his brother.

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

So this means at some point after the attackers arrived, the daughter left the car and I expect that's when she got attacked. I can't imagine she was told to leave by her parents but maybe when they were shot it was a natural reaction for her to open the car and try to get away. When she did this, gunman panicked and perhaps tried to stop her leaving. This could be what resulted in her injuries. They grabbed her roughly and she was struggling. Excessive force was used. [They shot] her in the shoulder to stop her from escaping and calling for help. Given the head shots on the other victims, it seems that the shot on the 7 year old was not meant to kill but was meant to keep her there and stop her telling people until they got away. I expect this bit wasn't planned as they thought the girl wouldn't move and would just sit there in the car through fear. When she didn't do this they had to stop her. I think if they had meant to kill her they would have and they would also have killed the 4 year old. I don't believe it was a robbery so I think they would have known how many children were in the car. The doors being locked, as mentioned above I expect this would be an auto lock feature. After a certain period of time of them being unlocked with the engine running, they would lock automatically (even possibly when the door slammed shut at the 7 year old got out).

Given the time frame---25 shots fired in 30 seconds---I don't think there was any debate or dialogue involved. A much simpler explanation would be that she ran like hell when the attack started, then the assailant(s) shot her while fleeing and tried to kill her by hand when they ran out of ammunition or time. The head blows strike me as the tactic of a trained commando. Here's a quote from the CIA's notorious "Assassination Manual" of 1959 (though I don't mean to imply that it was the CIA who trained them):

As with edge weapons, blunt weapons require some anatomical knowledge for effective use . . . . Blows should be directed to the temple, the area just below and behind the ear, and the lower, rear portion of the skull. Of course, if the blow is very heavy, any portion of the upper skull will do. The lower frontal portion of the head, from the eyes to the throat, can withstand enormous blows without fatal consequences.

 

[~n/t~]

IMO, if they wanted to assissinate her, they would have with just one bullet to the head. She was beaten to shut her up and yes it appears they used the CIA technique to do so. The shot to the shoulder could have been a stray bullet.

All speculation on my part from what is known so far.

 

[~n/t~]

Possible inheritance dispute

But Mae Faisal El-Wailly, a childhood friend of the brothers, made available a letter written to her by Saad last year that alluded to a possible inheritance dispute. She said the brothers' father had died recently, and she described the family as wealthy and well-travelled.

"Zaid and I do not communicate any more as he is another control freak and tried a lot of underhanded things even when my father was alive," Saad wrote. The letter was dated Sept. 16, 2011.

"He tried to take control of fathers assets and demanded control," the letter says. "(A)nyway it is a long story and now I have just had to wipe him out of my life. Sad but I need to concentrate now on my wife and two lovely girls…"

Public records show Zaid resigned from Saad's small aeronautics design firm, Shtech Ltd., last year. The company had only modest assets, with a net worth of £8,331 (roughly $13,000).

Maillaud said he had not heard about any possible inheritance issue and that Zaid remains "a free man."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/09/07/france-alps-family-killed-feud-alleged.html

 

[~n/t~]

Alps shootings: murders have 'hallmarks of a professional assassination'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...arks-professional-assassination?newsfeed=true

 

[~n/t~]

The nature of the killing has given rise to speculation about who might be able to dispatch an assassin to the French Alps. Three of the four killed were shot through the middle of the head, and initial details of the shooting seemed to suggest a degree of control to the massacre. It was not someone spraying bullets around.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/07/rench-alps-shooting-live-updates?newsfeed=true

 

[Clio]

Police have started searching the family home in Surrey

Police officers have begun searching the home of the British couple killed in the French Alps in the hope of revealing clues about why they were murdered

A French police source said the search of the Claygate address would be "very long" and would go "beyond the day".

French and British officers had earlier been due to meet to decide an investigation strategy.

Four French officers led by Colonel Marc de Tarle, who heads the National Gendarmerie Criminal Affairs Bureau, are believed to have arrived in Surrey to liaise with British officers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ing-police-launch-search-of-victims-home.html

BBC News showing forensic tents being set up outside the home.

 

[Snoopster]

Photo of location of murder.

http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-sav...-fillettes-survivantes-sont-arrives-en-france

 

[Saturn]

I find it scary that French Gendarmes are the lead LE in this case, their record of being proactive and successful in solving crimes on UK tourists is dire. (Remembering the 13 year old girl murdered 15+ years ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-305738/Murdered-Carolines-classmates-evidence.html only caught because a US customs guy put 2+2 together).

Now they are asking Swiss and Italian Police to help them (because the French are generally incompetent). They waste time pretending they are proactive, but are really scratching their heads as they don't have a clue.

I'm surprised Interpol has not been mentioned anywhere that I can see, as they are much more clued up and share more Intelligence around Europe.

British Police have a much better understanding of multi cultural incidents; they have to, it's in their training; or they'll be done for being non PC and Human Rights will be onto them.

 

[Clio]

Regarding passports, it seems the father did have dual nationality

Ali al-Dabbagh, a spokesman for the Iraqi government, told the Evening Standard that the French had asked Baghdad officials to find family members: "Our embassy in Paris has been contacted by the French government and we are helping them with their investigation. We're trying to establish the family links here in Iraq.

"So far we have not been able to find any records about family members here. We do know that the father held dual British and Iraqi nationality, but we are still trying to establish the last time he was in Iraq."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/07/annecy-murders-french-alps-baghdad

 

[Clio]

French press conference expected on BBC News at ~14:00

 

[Snoopster]

Here's France24 the english language TV's take on the story
French police head to Britain to probe Alps murders

On the video at the above link LE say that it is important to study the location of the shell casings as that will help them determine whether all the shots took place from one point, from one weapon, or from multiple locations and multiple weapons.

 

[Snoopster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9527148/France-shooting-There-was-noise-I-was-scared-said-girl-who-hid-from-killers.html

 

[Lola]

Just saw CNNi's report on this crime they are saying each victim had 3-7 bullets in the head...makes no sense -- suspect they meant 3-7 bullet wounds. One thing that they did not elaborate on was a statement to the effect that it had the "hallmarks" of an assasination but they gave the impression that was the intention of the killer rather than the actual situation -- i.e. someone trying to make this look like a pro hit but was not able to do it....does that make any sense?

 

[Clio]

I watched the BBC version of the French Press Conference earlier. The translator said that each victim had 2 bullet wounds to the head and other bullet wounds elsewhere in the body. The 2 bullet wounds in the head (per victim) was a correction to yesterdays statement of one bullet wound to the head (per victim).

The prosecutor was reluctant to say very much and got quite irritated with the media questions. He said that relations with british police were "perfect" but that he wished the british police would be more discrete (about details of the family members).

BBC spoke to a french reporter after the conference who then talked about the media needing to be discrete. The french reporter seemed to think that there had been a "turning point" in the investigation.

 

[Reader]

Been following the case but not posting, just found this link about the Swedish person, at bottom is a live blog about the press conference:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/who-is-fourth-french-alps-shooting-1312804

Who is she? French police trying to work out how Swedish woman fits with al-Hilli family

...........But after investigators spoke to the little girl, the mystery over the attack has deepened.

When Zeena spoke to French police she confirmed her mother, father and sister were in the car with her but could not provide the name of the 77-year-old woman who was with them.

“She was asked who she was with and she said ‘Daddy, Mummy, Sisty’ and gave their first names,” Mr Maillaud said.

“The older lady is slightly more complicated because the little girl said she didn’t know her very well.”

At a press conference in Annecy today Mr Maillaud confirmed police still had not definitively established the woman's connection to the family.

He said: "The Swedish authorities have been contacted. The only confirmation we have is the passport corresponds to a person of Swedish nationality who lives in Sweden.

"At the moment no link has been made between the passport and the older woman or her relationship to the family."............

Zeena remains under the care of psychiatric teams and had spoken about what he described as the "terror" of what happened, but did not see anything because she was hiding.

Mr Maillaud said: "The witness statement of the four-year-old girl, she just talked about a fury, a terror. She explained that from the beginning of the murder she was already between her mother and that other woman and she rushed under her mother's legs, her mother's skirt."

Family members - a man and a woman - have arrived in France to visit Zeena and her sister Zainab, seven, who remains in a medically induced coma in a Grenoble hospital.


More at link plus live blog which will continue to be updated....

 

[wfgodot]

To me it's interesting that the family were even in France on holiday at this time as the school term at Claygate began on 05 September, the day the murders occurred. Why now?

http://www.claygate.surrey.sch.uk/resources/images/term dates 2012-2013.pdf