France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[rotterdam]

This is interesting .I did wonder why the Father was living in Spain.

So the house must have been in the mother's name in order for her to be able to will it to the two sons.

I can not see that dividing the property equally should create a feud.
I wonder why Zaid was living there ,he was married ( I understand his wife died around 10 years ago)with a son so would have had his own property.

Zaid wife died in 2007 IIRC (cancer).Her maiden name was O'Reilly so not Iraqi.
He was probably devastated and went to live with his Brother and SIL for a while. Leaving one property(family home) to two siblings quite often creates a feud. One wants to live in it and one wants the bucks and the other one can not afford to buy the other half.

 

[rotterdam]

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Tuerie de Chevaline : la création d’une équipe d’enquête franco-britannique envisagée
Le Point.fr – Publié le 21/09/2012 à 09:53 – Modifié le 21/09/2012 à 11:30
Le dispositif doit permettre de lisser les difficultés juridiques posées par les différences de culture entre les deux pays

Une équipe commune d’enquête franco-britannique destinée à lever les lourdeurs juridiques ralentissant les investigations sur la tuerie de Chevaline (Haute-Savoie) devrait être créée vendredi à Annecy sous l’égide de l’agence européenne de coopération judiciaire Eurojust, a indiqué le parquet d’Annecy. Cette équipe commune d’enquête (ECE) doit voir le jour vendredi soir, au terme d’une réunion entamée jeudi midi. Elle devrait être dirigée par les deux juges d’instruction français en charge de l’affaire et composée de procureurs britanniques du Crown Prosecution Service, des enquêteurs de la police du comté de Surrey et des gendarmes de la section de recherche de Chambéry.

La création d’une ECE va permettre de lisser les difficultés juridiques posées par les différences de culture existant entre les deux pays. “Il y a un choc de cultures juridiques qui rend les choses extrêmement lentes”, a ainsi expliqué le procureur de la République d’Annecy, Éric Maillaud. Depuis le début de l’enquête de Chevaline, plusieurs commissions rogatoires internationales adressées par les juges d’instruction français ont ainsi été refusées par le ministère de l’Intérieur britannique (Home Office), car elles n’étaient pas suffisamment motivées au vu du droit pénal anglais.

Dans le cadre de l’ECE, les commissions rogatoires internationales deviendront inutiles. Le travail d’enquête se fera “comme si on était dans un seul pays, d’enquêteur à enquêteur ou de juge à enquêteur”, selon Éric Maillaud. “Cela évite de passer des heures, voire des journées entières, à rédiger”, a-t-il expliqué. Créées par une convention européenne du 29 mai 2000, les ECE permettent d’échanger des renseignements, de mener des opérations d’investigations conjointes et de coordonner l’exercice des poursuites pénales.’

Note that it is reported The UK Home Office has refused to reply to several international ‘commissions rogatoires’ addresed to them by the French investigating judges on a technicality.


Why would the UK not reply if this is a joint investigation.

Two different law systems, both criminal and civil. Different privacy codes etc. British law is different than rest of western Europe which marches mostly to the Napoleonic code.
Eurojust can sort it out though.

 

[Skigh]

Zaid wife died in 2007 IIRC (cancer).Her maiden name was O'Reilly so not Iraqi.
He was probably devastated and went to live with his Brother and SIL for a while. Leaving one property(family home) to two siblings quite often creates a feud. One wants to live in it and one wants the bucks and the other one has can not afford to buy the other half.

Thanks for this.

I thought from reports that there were other properties and bank accounts and they were left around 4 million.

I suppose inheritance tax would take some of it-though that would have been paid after the mother died if she did leave them the house.

Enough money I would have thought for Saad to keep the house and Zain to have his share.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/09/20/costa-link-to-french-alps-murders/

THE father of a British father-of-two gunned down in cold blood with his family in the French Alps died a sad and lonely death on the Costa del Sol.

bbm

Neither son, it emerges, is listed on his death certificate, which is held at Benalmadena register office.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-islamic-rants-1326315

Baghdad-born Saad arrived in the UK in the 1970s when his parents fled Iraq and one of his uncles was killed by Saddam Hussein’s henchmen. But he owned land in the war-torn country and often returned.

bbm

 

[rotterdam]

Thanks for this.

I thought from reports that there were other properties and bank accounts and they were left around 4 million.

I suppose inheritance tax would take some of it-though that would have been paid after the mother died if she did leave them the house.

Enough money I would have thought for Saad to keep the house and Zain to have his share.

That is the speculation about the father's will and does not include the family home in UK IMO. Both brothers names are already on that, and probably since 2001 when the mom died. The father's inheritance apparently has not been probated yet and Saad put a caveat on it(injunction)..

 

[Skigh]

Friends said Mr Al-Hilli had previously lived in Pimlico in central London and was a keen cyclist. He used to ride his bike to Surrey and decided to move to Claygate when he was on one of his rides. His elderly parents had lived with the family until they passed away, neighbours said. (from independent article)


So this is another example of muddled reporting.

His parents owned the claygate house and his Father died in Spain!!


Also in the same article


His friend, who gave his name only as James, said he last spoke to Mr Al-Hilli – who lived with his wife Ikbal and daughters Zainab and Zeena – on Friday 24 August, when he called him asking if he wanted to meet for a coffee in Guildford, expecting him to be at work. "I phoned him but he told me he was at home and had taken two weeks off," he said, adding that Mr Al-Hilli had made no mention until that point that he was planning to do so.Mr Al-Hilli's accountant, Julian Steadman, of Steadman and Co, a couple of streets from Mr Al-Hilli's home in Claygate, Surrey, said he saw him the evening he set off for Dover to catch the ferry to Calais. "He was rushing around because he had a lot to sort out. He needed to file his VAT return at short notice and pick up his mother-in-law from Reading,

So was it the Friday 24th August when they left for France.
If it was just 2 weeks he planned to take off from work they should have been near the end of their holiday when the shootings happened.

Where did they go before they arrived at the campsite.

 

[Elley Mae]

From google tranlation:



http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Saad-Al-Hilli.-Un-pere-pas-si-tranquille-432993/

The article (which doesn't refer to sources very often) says that as a young man SAH took long bike rides. (so he was a cyclist too?) It also mentions that he liked the idea of having a caravan, as he could have the freedom to travel with his house. Apparently he didn't travel all that often though and he always took his computer.

BTW, who puts air conditioning in their garden shed? ....particularly in England?

bbm, I noticed in the picture that accompanies the article that the bike on the vehicles roof is a bicycle built for two.

Air conditioners also work very well on getting humidity out as well as cooling. off.

 

[Skigh]

bbm, I noticed in the picture that accompanies the article that the bike on the vehicles roof is a bicycle built for two.

Air conditioners also work very well on getting humidity out as well as cooling. off.

This picture was discussed a few pages back and the general opinion was that the picture was from a previous holiday.

 

[rotterdam]

Friends said Mr Al-Hilli had previously lived in Pimlico in central London and was a keen cyclist. He used to ride his bike to Surrey and decided to move to Claygate when he was on one of his rides. His elderly parents had lived with the family until they passed away, neighbours said. (from independent article)


So this is another example of muddled reporting.

His parents owned the claygate house and his Father died in Spain!!


Also in the same article


His friend, who gave his name only as James, said he last spoke to Mr Al-Hilli – who lived with his wife Ikbal and daughters Zainab and Zeena – on Friday 24 August, when he called him asking if he wanted to meet for a coffee in Guildford, expecting him to be at work. "I phoned him but he told me he was at home and had taken two weeks off," he said, adding that Mr Al-Hilli had made no mention until that point that he was planning to do so.Mr Al-Hilli's accountant, Julian Steadman, of Steadman and Co, a couple of streets from Mr Al-Hilli's home in Claygate, Surrey, said he saw him the evening he set off for Dover to catch the ferry to Calais. "He was rushing around because he had a lot to sort out. He needed to file his VAT return at short notice and pick up his mother-in-law from Reading,

So was it the Friday 24th August when they left for France.
If it was just 2 weeks he planned to take off from work they should have been near the end of their holiday when the shootings happened.

Where did they go before they arrived at the campsite.

I agree with the muddled sensationalized reporting, mostly British tabloids.
Amazing how much they are speculating on that dilapidated ruin he bought in his thirties , probably for a song and dance, and before he was married and had kids. Obviously a project that fell by the wayside after his marriage.

His family left UK on August 29 according to this article and that pretty well matches up ( no hiatus) with his arrival at the second campsite.

"Yesterday Jack Saltman, another neighbour, said Mr Al-Hilli had told how he was grappling with a 'personal problem' on August 29, the day the family left for France."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Alps-Extraordinary-life-engineer-victim.html

I also wonder what the "documents" he was worried about, pertained to.
Industrial espionage would not be stored on documents but in "bits" form.
Wonder if he was trying to get properties back in Iraq and obtained such "' ownership documents" from his dad last year.
Current squatters on such properties would have a dim view on such antics.
Could be a motive too.
Difficult to get properties back after a war/regime change. Just ask the holocaust survivors when returning to their countries of origin and found squatters in their homes. No wonder many went to the new state of Israel afterwards.

 

[rotterdam]

More on the property in France.
Apparently Saad had an asking price of 25.000 euro ( approx $32,000) which was considered too steep. The bottom of the house was used to keep chickens prior to Saad buying it. So he bought a fancy chicken house.

A few years ago, the owners of the townhouse, which usually live in Africa, contacted me. They wanted to buy this house in al-Hilli to enlarge their garden. But that does not happen. From what I understand, he wanted very expensive, 25 000 euros, I think. "Since he was no longer question of Saad al-Hilli in the small village on the banks of the Garonne. Until the approximation is done with the drama of Horses. Last weekend, the noise started to run in the village.
From memory, this gentleman bought this house, which was a ruin in the late 1990s, in 1997 or 1998. It belonged to a Mr. Marc. Eugène Lefebvre, who lived in the street, had installed his hens.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2012/09/21/la-victime-de-chevaline-proprietaire-en-gironde-826923-7.php

 

[rotterdam]

Hard to find anything new in this mystery, But I did not know that Saad started his quest for the Iraqi property only two years ago. This is new to me.

The first centred on an alleged family feud after reports surfaced that Saad al-Hilli had been involved in a dispute with his brother over their father's inheritance. His brother, Zaid, has vehemently denied the reports. The second concerned Hilli's work as an engineer for different companies, and the third involved his roots in Iraq, where he was born and where he is believed to have returned two years ago in a bid to recoup some family assets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/french-uk-police-alps-shooting?newsfeed=true

Also this

A week ago, the prosecutor, Mr Maillaud, said there were three principle lines of inquiry: a family quarrel over money; some link with Mr al-Hilli's work as an aerospace engineer; or the family's "Iraqi origins". French investigators have been trying to pursue the third line of inquiry but say they are receiving no co-operation from Baghdad.

One other possibility – that the murderer wanted to kill the French cyclist and the British family got in the way – has been all but dismissed by the French investigators. However, the possibility of a random attack by a deranged, local person has not been completely excluded.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...o-join-forces-with-surrey-police-8163894.html

 

[rotterdam]

Google translation from Belgium (flemish)article. Apparently the hen house in Gironde will also be searched in near future. Plus no reference this time to silly cultural differences for a smooth multi country investigation but just valid legal differences.

"Under the supervision of the European Agency for judicial cooperation, the French and British courts set up a joint investigation team, which the researchers must allow faster information exchange, joint research operations to perform and coordinate criminal prosecutions.

The goal of the team is primarily the legal differences between the two countries to bridge. Several witnesses at the request of French investigative judges earlier by the British Home Secretary refused, because they go to the British criminal law were not sufficiently motivated.

According to the Prosecutor of Annecy Eric Maillaud (photo), the future research work must happen as "if the researchers are in the same country."

The research team could still be enhanced with Swedish colleagues, where one of the victims resided, or with Swiss and Italian researchers, because the perpetrators may have fled these countries.
Ruin in Gironde

The Franco-British research team in the coming weeks also conduct research into a dilapidated house near Saint-Macaire, whose Saa al-Hilli, the murdered British-Iraqi engineer, since the 90s owner was. The conscious house is two to three years ago up for sale after it since the purchase by Al-Hilli all this time had remained uninhabited."

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/buitenland/120921_Alpenmoord_onderzoeksteam

 

[rotterdam]

:notgoodarn it is so lonely here having a monologue with myself

 

[goldielox]

Hi lonely rotterdam

I'm wondering whether the fact that the Al Hilli's were supposedly being monitored in 2003 had anything to do with Saad's father's decision to move to Spain in the same year?

We know very little about the father. I've seen reports that he had a factory in Iraq before coming to the UK, and also that he had a factory in the UK... so what was the nature of his business, and what was the name of the factory? We don't know. If he came over to the UK in the late 70's he was relatively young, so what did he do for income in the thirty or so years prior to retiring?

 

[Peace777]

sorry you're feeling lonely but there seems to be not much new in the case:banghead: I keep checking back every few days hoping for some good news that at least maybe the police are zeroing in on a good lead but no so yet:banghead: SOMEONE knows something and hopefully will let something slip as these butchers have to be caught for the little girls sake as it would be so terrible for them to not have this case solved before they get older in life! Someone or somebodies have ruined their little lives by murderering their parents

 

[~n/t~]

:notgoodarn it is so lonely here having a monologue with myself

Awww don't feel lonely. I appreciate all your updates!! Thanks so much.

I'm just at a loss of what more to add. There are just so many theories with nothing concrete to work with.

Like the article you posted earlier said, it could be any number of reasons from his job to the alleged inheritance to the Baghdad connection......

Where does one even begin to speculate without the "intelligence" the investigators have?

Personally, I still think it's a mob hit of some sort. Call it what you will....terrorist attack connected to his connections to Iraq. I think Mr. Al-Hilli knew something and they needed to shut him up. The adults knew or they may have recognized the killer.

The children were spared albeit one child was beaten but survived. She may hold the biggest clue because she was found outside the vehicle. Was she told to get something from the vehicle and hand it over?

 

[Peace777]

Strange there is no pic of the wife online anywhere Hmmmm Did I read somewhere that Mr. Al-Hilli met her in Bahrain? I found the name of al-saffar in Bahrain news from last year maybe some relative of Mrs. A's?? Maybe this might be some resemblance to what Mrs. A looked like?? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/bahraini-medic-save-lives-danger
This lady was 49 in 2011 Mrs.A I think I read was born in 1962 so the ages would be similar. But it is a fairly common last name over there I guess. Adds to the plot anyways

 

[Elley Mae]

http://translate.google.com/transla...a=X&ei=HLxdUNjfNYa0igKRpIHIDQ&ved=0CCwQ7gEwAQ

According to The Herald, the two men knew each other and were fired from the same club bike, Ugine.

This page I translated french to english. Does it mean what it says?

 

[Skigh]

I agree with the muddled sensationalized reporting, mostly British tabloids.
His family left UK on August 29 according to this article and that pretty well matches up ( no hiatus) with his arrival at the second campsite.

"Yesterday Jack Saltman, another neighbour, said Mr Al-Hilli had told how he was grappling with a 'personal problem' on August 29, the day the family left for France."

But from the report from his accountant it was a Friday evening they left and the 29th August was a Wednesday.

This is from another report:

Neighbour Lorna Davey said her daughter attended Claygate Primary School with Zainab, while Zeena was due to start at the school this year.

She said: "They were very pretty, smiley little girls and a very nice, happy family.

"I'm shocked. They've obviously been extremely unlucky."

Ms Davey said the family would often go on holiday in their caravan and had been away on their latest trip for at least three weeks.