"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

[sleutherontheside]

I respect that a determination of guilt must be "beyond reasonable doubt". It's what makes the legal system work (though at times in favor of a guilty defendant). IMO KC is guilty. I base that opinion upon the mounds of research, documentation, evidence whether circumstantial or fact. There are mountains of circumstantial evicence released thus far. There are also facts that can not be disputed or discredited, such as KC's claim she was employed by Universal, that she received phone calls from "zanny", the excited utterances by CA in the 911 call, the FACT that a decomposing entity was present in her vehicle. In the absence of any VALID evidence or statements from the defense to date....I base my opinion upon what I have to work with. Would this stand up in a court or law? Clearly, the answer is NO. Because we have yet to see her "side of the story", we can not discredit the evidence in hand. I consider finding a defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to be one part facts / evidence and one part interpretation of said evidence. Interpretation of the evidence not only requires a clear understanding of facts, but an ability to use those facts to arrive at a reasonable and IMO LOGICAL conclusion. One could argue that a piece of evidence that can be disputed or dismissed should suffice to create reasonable doubt. One can also argue that one piece of evidence does not a case make. We have seen cases (OJ) before be decided based on one piece of evidence. That does not mean that because it happened once, it is the rule. The defense seems dedicated to making their case by discrediting evidence, analysis, and procedure. It is always wise to have those considerations in your back pocket, but if that is your strategy one has to wonder WHY??

 

[Brini]

In response to the sentence I bolded.

Florida leads the nation in death penalty reversals. (http://www.abanet.org/moratorium/assessmentproject/florida/report.pdf page 11) Until fairly recently 80% of all death row convictions in Florida were reversed. http://www.truthinjustice.org/fla-deathrow.htm http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/List_of_reversed_death_sentences_-_United_States/id/1705808

I wasn't endorsing the reliability of jury verdicts in Florida but stating as fact that Florida juries do dole out the ultimate punishment.

Florida also leads the nation in exonerations (23).

 

[robotdog]

JACKPOT :woohoo:

No question- guilty. This because of a literal mountain of circumstantial evidence. However we nitpick the evidence, some facts are utterly incontestable:

1) Caylee was in KC's care and control. No one elses. Period.

2) KC did not report Caylee missing-- ever.

3) KC exerted her prodigious talent for mendacity in a blatant attempt to mislead and balk the investigation. She literally lied about everything, except her name.

4) The decomp was in KC's car-- no one elses.

5) KC's behavior, while she claimed that Caylee was missing, was celebratory.

6) KC made no attempt to search for Caylee. KC made no attempt to plead with the "kidnapper" through the media.

7) Thus, NONE of KC's behavior was that of a normal, caring, nother who was worried sick about her baby.

Even if we discuss NO other evidence, that has been more than enough to convict other killers. Recent example, the oft-cited SP.

The fact that the oft-cited Huck survived appeal all the way to the Supremes gives precident for at least aggravated child abuse, which constitutes Murder I, as the child died.

Until those facts remain unexplained (and they will, despite the defense's posturing) no one ELSE had motive, method, and opportunity. Especially opportunity.

SODDI isn't an option, without explaining who, where, and how the SOD got Caylee away from KC. Also, no jury will buy that KC is taking the rap for anyone else.

So.. It looks to me like a slam dunk.

Bottom line-- NOBODY had access to Caylee EXCEPT through KC. Nothing can change that fact.

 

[Wudge]

In response to the sentence I bolded.

Florida leads the nation in death penalty reversals. (http://www.abanet.org/moratorium/assessmentproject/florida/report.pdf page 11) Until fairly recently 80% of all death row convictions in Florida were reversed. http://www.truthinjustice.org/fla-deathrow.htm http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/List_of_reversed_death_sentences_-_United_States/id/1705808

I wasn't endorsing the reliability of jury verdicts in Florida but stating my opinion on whether or not KC will be convicted or executed. Yes and no.

Thank you. That is both stunning and ghastly.

 

[USARDOG]

Oh, so guilty! M1.

There is so much evidence that ties her directly to this crime. This case should be a slam-dunk.

 

[USARDOG]

"Florida Leads the nation..." that article was written in Feb of 2000...

 

[legalmania]

No question- guilty. This because of a literal mountain of circumstantial evidence. However we nitpick the evidence, some facts are utterly incontestable:

1) Caylee was in KC's care and control. No one elses. Period.

2) KC did not report Caylee missing-- ever.

3) KC exerted her prodigious talent for mendacity in a blatant attempt to mislead and balk the investigation. She literally lied about everything, except her name.

4) The decomp was in KC's car-- no one elses.

5) KC's behavior, while she claimed that Caylee was missing, was celebratory.

6) KC made no attempt to search for Caylee. KC made no attempt to plead with the "kidnapper" through the media.

7) Thus, NONE of KC's behavior was that of a normal, caring, nother who was worried sick about her baby.

Even if we discuss NO other evidence, that has been more than enough to convict other killers. Recent example, the oft-cited SP.

The fact that the oft-cited Huck survived appeal all the way to the Supremes gives precident for at least aggravated child abuse, which constitutes Murder I, as the child died.

Until those facts remain unexplained (and they will, despite the defense's posturing) no one ELSE had motive, method, and opportunity. Especially opportunity.

SODDI isn't an option, without explaining who, where, and how the SOD got Caylee away from KC. Also, no jury will buy that KC is taking the rap for anyone else.

So.. It looks to me like a slam dunk.

Bottom line-- NOBODY had access to Caylee EXCEPT through KC. Nothing can change that fact.

I don't know how anyone can determine what is and is not evidence. Until there has been an evidentiary hearing it's just exhibits.

 

[legalmania]

Your post Edited for brevity.

KC "found" Caylee? How did that happen, Caylee was lost? Caylee was in the pool?

KC's mental illness? Where is that diagnosed? I missed that post, please post a link.

I have seen a lot of dead people, and don't ever remember seeing one with their mouth open... Eyes open yes, mouth, no. Sorry, my personal experience prevents me from seeing this as a viable option.

PrincessRose made a statement about a band being placed around a dead person's head and jaw to prevent the mouth from opening. Having worked in hospitals, one would think I would have seen such a band. Having dissected cadavers, one would think I might have seen evidence of such a band. I have not.

I had a friend who worked in mortuary and he told me that was the one thing that got to him was the people brought in with their mouths open.

 

[MissJames]

I had a friend who worked in mortuary and he told me that was the one thing that got to him was the people brought in with their mouths open.

Did he tell you if he ever saw anyone duct tape the mouth shut?

 

[Rlaub44]

PSA:
No one is under any obligation to post and if one posters viewpoints are not in line with yours and you are satisfied with your opinion and viewpoint and evidence, then keep scrolling.

I will never understand why when an alternate opinion is posed, some feel compelled to respond and then complain that thay "have" to respond and keep going over the same material.
There is tons of material on this forum that I am not inclined to revisit. So, I skip it and move on to topics that imo need more analysis or I am not satisfied with personally.
If you do not want to revisit material that is old or complete to you, then scroll right by or feel free to respond but don't complain about it.

All points of view are welcome here at WS as long as they are presented respectfully and other members are not attacked. But what I am seeing is members with different view points bullied off threads as though they have no business having a different opinion.

I fully believe that KC will be proven guilty of 1st degree murder. With that said, I fully support anyone else's right to their opinions, whether or not they agree with mine.

I have felt compelled to respond to posts with misleading information, and most frequently, to posts that attempt to state opinion as fact, and ridiculing others opinions as absurd, etc. I feel it is proper in a discussion forum to seek or provide clarification on what matters may be factual versus opinion.

I certainly can't agree that posters with an alternate view have been bullied off of these threads; some of those holding the "not guilty" position are among the most prolific posters.

We all need to remember that all views are welcome and necessary here - we would gain nothing if everyone agreed. However, it is incumbent on both sides to present their own opinion and not invalidate the opinions of the rest. Spirited debate within the terms of service is healthy and often productive.

You have a difficult task JBean, and I appreciate the work you have to do to keep us in line. This is the best forum around, and not simply by chance. Thanks to you, Tricia, and all the mods.

 

[sleutherontheside]

ITA rlaub44. I have found that the minority opinions cause me to evaluate more closely, carefully document, cite references as support, and otherwise demonstrate my reasoning with some degree of validity. There are plenty of sites that allow random opinion, rumor, and disruptive posts. WS is sooooooooooooo different. While I may debate, oppose, or disagree with other posters....I value their position because it forces me to work harder to prove my point.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Like everyone said there is probably evidence we haven't seen from the state.
And of course the defense has their version of evidense they have she is innocent.
I have read here since july and read all opinions both ways.
I say GULTY. KC has never ever, ever been upset like a normal person about Caylees
dissappearance even after 31 days when it became public knowledge. After her little body was found we haven't heard one demand from the family or KC to find who did this to their baby. Never said they want this person found and punished. Never ever, ever acted like they are living in anguish and broken hearted.
I have seen them act like the ways I have mentioned regarding KC in jail and charged with the murder, Anguished and Broken hearted.
BUT not for Caylee. I am sure Caylee's grandpa could pass that test of emotion if he would stick up for Caylee instead of following the money with CA.
I probably live in my small world but am thankful I have never known anyone like this family. Rest in peace little Caylee, you are in a safe place now.

Watching the family of Somer Thompson for the last couple of nights, and seeing the terrible anguish they are suffering, my mind went straight to the Anthony family and their shameful behavior, the combativeness, the lying, no sign of grief for the child, only evasiveness from start to finish.

 

[JBean]

I fully believe that KC will be proven guilty of 1st degree murder. With that said, I fully support anyone else's right to their opinions, whether or not they agree with mine.

I have felt compelled to respond to posts with misleading information, and most frequently, to posts that attempt to state fact as opinion, and ridiculing others opinions as absurd, etc. I feel it is proper in a discussion forum to seek or provide clarification on what matters may be factual versus opinion.

I certainly can't agree that posters with an alternate view have been bullied off of these threads; some of those holding the "not guilty" position are among the most prolific posters.

We all need to remember that all views are welcome and necessary here - we would gain nothing if everyone agreed. However, it is incumbent on both sides to present their own opinion and not invalidate the opinions of the rest. Spirited debate within the terms of service is healthy and often productive.

You have a difficult task JBean, and I appreciate the work you have to do to keep us in line. This is the best forum around, and not simply by chance. Thanks to you, Tricia, and all the mods.

I appreciate your point of view and thanks for your input. I personally love the debate.

Most of the posters with "minority" opinions don't post here anymore because they were definitely made uncomfortable and that is not what they had hoped for. they were looking for discussion but were met with rudeness in many cases. I am not necessarily referring to any current posters, nor can we make any of them the subject of our posts. those that are here can hold there own just fine and it would be inappropriate to discuss this in any more detail. I think if you all read the posts you will see there is more there than you realize.
I come from a more juror type standpoint and will not make my mind up until the defense presents their case in trial. But many come from a different angle and it is more of a court of public opinion. Both are fine.

There is no problem feeling compelled to post your opinion or information in repsonse, but I get pm's and alerts complaining that people "have to keep discussing" a certain topic.
No one has to respond to anyone.


Just remember attack the post not the poster.
I appreciate all your hard work as well.

 

[Jolynna]

"Florida Leads the nation..." that article was written in Feb of 2000...

The American Bar Association Florida & the death penalty report was submitted Sept. 1 of 2006. It also states that Florida leads the nation in death penalty reversals. 1st link in my earlier post on page 11.

In 2009, according to Death Penalty Information Center, Florida continues to lead as the state with the most death penalty exonerations.

But what will not bode well for KC is that Florida is the only one of 35 death penalty states that allows a jury to decide that aggravating factors exist and to recommend a sentence of death by a majority vote.


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/opinion-florida%E2%80%99s-death-penalty-system-still-%E2%80%98fraught-problems%E2%80%99http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/florida-death-penalty-system-needs-reform/1036468

 

[mysteriew]

I believe that KC will be found guilty of murder.

Here are what has led me to that determination:

*1, Last person seen with a living Caylee= KC

*2. Failure to report a 'missing' child. And to go along with that is an apparent lack of concern for the child, as evidenced by appearances in nightclubs and etc. Failure to produce an alleged 'script.'

3. Appearance of lying to investigators in instances not related to the disappearance.... as in her employment.

*4. Alleged lying to investigators about what happened to Caylee.... she reported that she left her with 'Zanny'. Yet no evidence has been found of a Zanny related to the case. Persons that KC has said introduced 'Zanny' deny the intro, calls alleged to and from 'Zanny' cannot be found. And no one seems to have met 'Zanny' or know anything about her. To me, this one is huge. You don't forget who you left your child with under any circumstances, and esp. not when your child is missing!

*5. Evidence of decomp found in KC's car that she continued to drive. Comments made to friends re the odor of the car.

*6. Abandoning the car. Instead of returning the car to her parents or even selling it, she abandons it. Why get rid of it, unless there is something in it that you don't want known? If she sold it, I would think that maybe it was a scam to get money, but she didn't even try to sell it. She dumped it.

*7. Type of tape found on Caylee's remains, may have been matched to tape used in the A. home.

8. Nightmares reported by Tone.

*9. Failure to participate in any type of search or to cooperate with others who were attempting to search.

*10. Changing stories. She left her with 'Zanny' at Sawgrass, she left her with 'Zanny' at the park. You don't ever forget the last sight of your child if she is missing.

11. And this is a biggie. I hate to admit it, but many of the family actions have confirmed my suspicions for me that KC was involved in Caylee's death. From the car cleaning and washing clothing, the denial of known evidence (it was a squirrel, no a pizza is one of my favorites), refusal to submit items with Caylee's DNA on it. All of this type of thing IMO smacks of a coverup, and you don't coverup when you have a missing child unless you know that cooperation will not help. And there is no need for a coverup if no one did anything wrong. The A.'s failed to take that into account when they began the denials and the appearances of coverup.

Most of this is my personal feelings and what led me to believe in KC's guilt. But the ones in astrisks are the ones that I think will have the most impact in court.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Dr G said the tape was applied "before decomposition." I googled every way I could think of and all the results I got agreed that decomposition of animal tissue "begins at death." If that is true then Dr G basically said the tape was applied before death. Dr G did not reveal all in her autopsy report. We have no measurements of anything (including the pieces of tape). We know only the general placement placement of the tape ~ no specifics. While her autopsy reveals many important facts it also omits many. I think she chose her words carefully. . . But I think she and her autopsy will hold up well under questioning. She is highly regarded in her field and this is far from her first trial. She knew when she wrote her report what to expect at trial and I believe that was her reason for her careful wording.


If the tape was applied before decomposition/death then we do have evidence of premeditation; especially 3, mind you, 3 layers of tape. moo

What evidence ties the duct tape to Casey?

The odds.

Please refer to these two posts by JWG which speak to the rarity of the tape found with Caylee's skeletonized body: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4325908&postcount=314"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match #3[/ame] and

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4325908&postcount=314"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match #3[/ame]

"Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year)."

I believe JWG's observations and math will be borne out by a highly respected expert in the appropriate field.

But the observation cannot be isolated to the duct tape alone. We also have to consider (along with the access to the rare duct tape) who had access to Caylee at the time she went missing. The Anthony household (three, possibly four people) had access to the tape but only one of those people also had access to Caylee before anyone realized she was missing. Cindy, George and Lee were pretty upset and later even frantic about trying to find Caylee and Casey.

And yes, Wudge, I know you like to depreciate a person's actions after the fact of the crime because of your legal philosophy. But I have to tell you, after raising my children and grandchildren that it was usually how they acted after they had done something wrong that led me to the right culprit!

So when I combine the facts, as I have available to me now, it looks like Casey is guilty. I must concede, though, I am more a Judge Judy person and not Supreme Court Justice ~ and most likely that's what our FL jury will be, too. But I cannot end this post without thanking you for always making me stretch my brain in the most uncomfortable ways!! I need the exercise ~ obviously!!

 

[legalmania]

The determination of the higher court which reviewed Huck's case is that it is not reasonable or logical to put duct tape over another human mouth except to make the other human stop screaming or breathing. I challenge anyone to find even ONE instance of a defendant successfully using the excuse that the "duct taping" happened after death.

Defendants, Brent Huck, Florida; Brookey West, Nevada and Kenneth Padgett, Alaska, tried to say it happened that way. The victim's cause of death in Huck's and West's cases could not conclusively be determined in any of the above cases because of decompostion. (West's victim was found 3 years after death.) Padgett's victim, like Caylee, wasn't found for months, but because of the tape, the medical examiner ruled death by suffocation. West said she'd panicked after her victim's death and didn't report it. She'd tied plastic over her victim's mouth as a shroud to keep her mouth closed. Padgett said he panicked over his victim's death because he had an outstanding warrant. He taped over his victim's mouth and nose after her death so he wouldn't have to look at her. None of the juries bought Huck's, West's or Padgett's explanations and all three were convicted of 1st Degree Murder. http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/010602/ala_010602ala0100001.shtml, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.html

I challenge anyone to find a single, just one, instance of a parent in this century taping over their child's mouth and nose for any reason except to kill the baby.



moo

This isn't a child but here is a instance that the judge used duct tape not to kill but to shut the person up. At the school I attended masking tape was used to keep certain students quite.

http://weinterrupt.com/2009/04/frustrated-judge-has-defendants-mouth-duct-taped-shut/

Until the evidence is clear and convincing there is no proof that the duct tape was covering Caylees nose and she was dead before it was applied. With hands free wouldn't it be a human reaction to pull or scratch at the tape? Shouldn't there have been scratch marks on the duct tape, not to mention fingerprints? There are a couple of cases where women have killed with duct tape but there are more reports of child abuse using duct tape. Here are cases of women who kill and using duct tape is rare.

http://books.google.com/books?id=K3...resnum=6&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[legalmania]

Before somebody wants proof of a couple of child abuse cases and duct tape here is two of over 80,000 thousand: The second one was used over the mouth to shut the boy up.

http://familylaw.typepad.com/virginiafamilylawappeals/child_abuse_and_neglect/

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13169561

 

[cyberborg]

The odds.

Please refer to these two posts by JWG which speak to the rarity of the tape found with Caylee's skeletonized body: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match #3 and

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match #3

"Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year)."

I believe JWG's observations and math will be borne out by a highly respected expert in the appropriate field.

But the observation cannot be isolated to the duct tape alone. We also have to consider (along with the access to the rare duct tape) who had access to Caylee at the time she went missing. The Anthony household (three, possibly four people) had access to the tape but only one of those people also had access to Caylee before anyone realized she was missing. Cindy, George and Lee were pretty upset and later even frantic about trying to find Caylee and Casey.

And yes, Wudge, I know you like to depreciate a person's actions after the fact of the crime because of your legal philosophy. But I have to tell you, after raising my children and grandchildren that it was usually how they acted after they had done something wrong that led me to the right culprit!

So when I combine the facts, as I have available to me now, it looks like Casey is guilty. I must concede, though, I am more a Judge Judy person and not Supreme Court Justice ~ and most likely that's what our FL jury will be, too. But I cannot end this post without thanking you for always making me stretch my brain in the most uncomfortable ways!! I need the exercise ~ obviously!!

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[legalmania]

I appreciate your point of view and thanks for your input. I personally love the debate.

Most of the posters with "minority" opinions don't post here anymore because they were definitely made uncomfortable and that is not what they had hoped for. they were looking for discussion but were met with rudeness in many cases. I am not necessarily referring to any current posters, nor can we make any of them the subject of our posts. those that are here can hold there own just fine and it would be inappropriate to discuss this in any more detail. I think if you all read the posts you will see there is more there than you realize.
I come from a more juror type standpoint and will not make my mind up until the defense presents their case in trial. But many come from a different angle and it is more of a court of public opinion. Both are fine.

There is no problem feeling compelled to post your opinion or information in repsonse, but I get pm's and alerts complaining that people "have to keep discussing" a certain topic.
No one has to respond to anyone.


Just remember attack the post not the poster.
I appreciate all your hard work as well.

JBean it is refreshing to find an open minded poster. I just want Casey to have a fair trial so we don't have to go through it twice. I won't be on the jury or care to be, but I believe in innocent until proven guilty and I find the media forgetting this.