GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 #2

[Cryptic]

The offense does not need to be a felony.

Thank you for the much needed correction.

In addition to the written law (which as you pointed out, is expansive in what powers it gives citizens "any offense"), the Georgia Supreme Court has made several rulings regarding citizens arrest.

These include at least two cases where the Georgia Supreme Court found that the amount of force used was not warranted by the totality circumstances (shooting a shoplifter, using baseball bat on a fleeing burglar).

What Is Georgia's Citizens Arrest Law ⁠— And Why Are There Calls To Repeal It?

In the end, the written law in regards to citizens arrests seems to have been supplemented by case law.

 

[Cryptic]

The offense does not need to be a felony.

Thank you for the much needed correction.

In addition to the written law (which as you pointed out, is rather expansive in the powers it gives citizens "any offense"), the Georgia Supreme Court has made several rulings regarding citizens arrest.

These include two cases where the Court found that the amount of force used was not warranted by the totality circumstances (shooting a shoplifter, using a baseball bat on a fleeing burglar).

What Is Georgia's Citizens Arrest Law ⁠— And Why Are There Calls To Repeal It?

In the end, the written law in regards to citizens arrests seems to have been supplemented by case law that might advance the concept that the level of force must be proportional to the offense.

Here is a quote from the Georgia Supreme Court:

"The only force reasonable under the circumstances may be used to restrain the individual arrested,"

"Edwards' alleged assault of the individual with a baseball bat entailed the use of unreasonable force, and could not have been part of a legitimate citizen's arrest,"

 

[andybinga]

I'm going to agree with this poster. Except to say I think they will get some petty charges to stick.

This isn't a race issue. No one was "hunting" or "lynching" anyone.
<modsnip: Not victim friendly>

How can people say he was even afraid for his life when no one here was in his head?

<modsnip: Discussing other members>

A jury doesn't work like that
They render their verdict on facts. And the facts in this case don't show that a murder was commited. Only a justified homicide, if applicable.

I agree 100%

 

[andybinga]

Yes, AA trespassed. That fact, however, does not change the fact that the citizens arrest was illegal.

Georgia only allows citizens arrests for a felony that was witnessed directly. Trespassing is not a felony.

Likewise, Georgia law allows property owners or their agents to confront trespassers and also to confront people to prevent trespass. Once AA left the property (running away, resuming his jog, or say, by skipping) he was no longer trespassing and could not be confronted.

I do, however, agree with you that the confrontation did not occur in a total vacuum. Following a conviction for murder, soft aspects such as AA did trespass can be taken into consideration for the sentencing.

Lets us cover the real Georgia law.
OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest them upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .

 

[Ray_of_hope]

He bleed out and died and that ended the event. He did not "fall". He bleed out losing blood perfusion to his brain and had a syncopal event related to hypovolemic shock secondary to a GSW which caused internal exsanguination.

I saw the video and he does fall. Syncope causes one to fall to the ground in an attempt by the body to stabilize (homeostasis). He may have had enough loss to 'faint' but doesn't necessarily make him expired at that point.

 

[andybinga]

Thank you for the much needed correction.

In addition to the written law (which as you pointed out, is rather expansive in the powers it gives citizens "any offense"), the Georgia Supreme Court has made several rulings regarding citizens arrest.

These include two cases where the Court found that the amount of force used was not warranted by the totality circumstances (shooting a shoplifter, using a baseball bat on a fleeing burglar).

What Is Georgia's Citizens Arrest Law ⁠— And Why Are There Calls To Repeal It?

In the end, the written law in regards to citizens arrests seems to have been supplemented by case law that might advance the concept that the level of force must be proportional to the offense.

When someone attacks you and tries to take your legally held gun it more than meets the burden of self defense.

 

[Boxer]

Both can be true; if you carefully read the law you've quoted it explicitly states, "any person not prohibited by law from possessing a handgun may carry"; that's not the same as 'forgetting' or 'storing' a gun in a vehicle when you are not present in the vehicle to actually 'carry' it. Different ball of wax.



I don't see anything of the sort regarding "anyone who doesn't register their guns is a criminal" context in this thread. All I see is persons stating that responsible gun ownership would entail keeping track of the serial numbers of the weapons you own. Nada any points that would contextualize a lack of doing so as making someone a criminal. No-one has suggested registration. They have suggested that persons who legally own firearms write down the serial numbers and keep a record of those; you are insinuating "record with the state/LE etc", but none of them have (else I've totally missed it).

I'm a responsible gun owner. I know my serial numbers and they are recorded in a safe place along with their legal purchase documents. They are also stored to a higher standard than that required by law here. Should one of them ever disappear, I have everything I need to provide proof to the law about the chain of custody of said weapon and it's serial number which I will report to them immediately upon discovery of it's absence. That way, if it is ever recovered or used to commit a criminal act, my butt is covered and the law has a means of tracking back that weapon, and perhaps even the criminal's, history in investigating prior activity and/or crimes.

It's just the responsible thing to do.

Georgia actually does not require much in the way of keeping track of firearms, specifically because their lawmakers have felt that being required to keep serial numbers other than at original point of sale is a kind of de facto registration. Travis was in the Georgia norm regarding his gun ownership and, and obviously better than his father.
But given that, why even bother to report the handgun stolen?

 

[andybinga]

I saw the video and he does fall. Syncope causes one to fall to the ground for stabilization.

When you bleed out, have no blood pressure, you die. If you are standing up you fall because you are unconscious . Syncope is due to vasodilation which results in a TRANSIENT loss of blood pressure. <modsnip>

 

[Cryptic]

Lets us cover the real Georgia law.
OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest them upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .

The "real" Georgia law consists of two parts:
- The correct written law (as you cited).
- Rulings made by the Georgia Supreme court

The written law gives expansive power to citizens to make arrests. The Georgia Supreme court then seems to have put a damper on the level of force that can be used during citizens arrests:

"The only force reasonable under the circumstances may be used to restrain the individual arrested," (shooting a shoplifter)

"Edwards' alleged assault of the individual with a baseball bat entailed the use of unreasonable force, and could not have been part of a legitimate citizen's arrest," (using the bat on a fleeing burglar)

My guess is that the prosecution is going to emphasize the Georgia Supreme Court rulings which limit the amount of force that can be used.

 

[andybinga]

I’ve had to stay away from the threads lately. My gratitude to everyone @WS that keeps the threads going in support of Ahmaud Arbery.

It’s extremely painful to watch the video. Watching the murder of a young man being gunned down on a street in America, I can’t imagine the pain his family must feel.

I am saddened for the loss of Mr. Arbery.

Senseless.Inhumane.Appalled.Despicable behavior.Lynching.

If he did not attack someone and try to take their gun he would not get shot.

 

[Boxer]

The important part is there. The video made by William Bryan clearly shows the shooting in real-time. From said video it appears Ahmaud Arbery was running along the right side of the McMichael truck then abruptly turns 90 degrees to the left and attacks Travis McMichael who was standing at the front left corner of the truck . A brief skirmish ensues in which it appear Arbery strikes McMichael and appears to grab the shotgun and pull it from McMichael The shot is through Arbery s right hand palm which is consistent with him grabbing and pulling the shotgun at the barrel tip , the 2nd and 3rd wounds are consistent with the struggle for the shotgun as depicted in the video , the angle of the 2nd shot with the rear of the butt-stock being pushed away and down from the fight are also consistent with the upward angle of blood plume shown in the video and that McMichael was attempting to push the gun away from Arbery while Arbery was pulling it toward himself. The 3rd shot too appears to be in a struggle over the gun . The angle of the shots and the video show this was from the beginning or almost immediately became-- a fight over the shotgun .


Given the fact Arbery initiated the fight, at the point Arbery grabbed the shotgun, under Georgia Law , McMichael was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself. Just as importantly, while we know McMichael had his finger on the trigger, we do not know who caused the firings. Arbery would only had to pull the shotgun approximately 1/ 16th to 1/ 8th of one inch to fire weapon himself and in the height of an altercation this is entirely possible .

Sounds like Travis was laying in wait.

 

[andybinga]

Did AA actually tresspass? Reading the law, looking around a construction site doesn't really qualify. He had to have caused damage, been told he couldn't be there (a sign would have worked) or refuse to leave once told to.

Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-7-21 | FindLaw

Georgia burglary laws distinguish between three forms of burglary, first degree burglary, second degree burglary, and "smash and grab" burglary.

The elements for first degree burglary include:

1. Entering or remaining in an occupied, unoccupied, or vacant dwelling house of another or any other dwelling structure; and
2. The intent to commit a felony or theft inside.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

If he did not attack someone and try to take their gun he would not get shot.[/Q

He didn't attack. He was chased and attacked, then defended himself.

 

[Boxer]

OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest them upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .”

The above did not happen.

Two citizens may had immediate knowledge of a misdemeanor unless they were told by English, Perez or Albienez there was a felony committed.

 

[andybinga]

IIIRC video shows shots 2 and 3.
Also it show unlawfully attempting to detain someone.

Arbery passed on the right of the truck, crossed in front of the truck to his his left and attacked. Sound in this clip and it shows not shot fired until the attack happened. Second and third shots are justified after that especially since the boxer Arbery continued attack and chasing the victim around. Take a good look at it:

 

[Ray_of_hope]

Arbery passed on the right of the truck, crossed in front of the truck to his his left and attacked. Sound in this clip and it shows not shot fired until the attack happened. Second and third shots are justified after that especially since the boxer Arbery continued attack and chasing the victim around. Take a good look at it:

TM is right in front of the truck with his weapon as AA tries to pass.

 

[Boxer]

I agree 100%

Lets us cover the real Georgia law.
OCGA 17 -4 -60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest them upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .

Link please

 

[Boxer]

Arbery passed on the right of the truck, crossed in front of the truck to his his left and attacked. Sound in this clip and it shows not shot fired until the attack happened. Second and third shots are justified after that especially since the boxer Arbery continued attack and chasing the victim around. Take a good look at it:

Lots of things to consider, what was being said by either GM or TM? Was Travis racking the shotgun? etc.

 

[Leve]

Georgia burglary laws distinguish between three forms of burglary, first degree burglary, second degree burglary, and "smash and grab" burglary.

The elements for first degree burglary include:

1. Entering or remaining in an occupied, unoccupied, or vacant dwelling house of another or any other dwelling structure; and
2. The intent to commit a felony or theft inside.

He showed no intent to commit a felony or theft inside. They never any accused him of burglary, just trespassing.

 

[andybinga]

The above did not happen.

Two citizens had immediate knowledge of a misdemeanor unless they were told by English, Perez or Albienez there was a felony committed.

McMichael lived next door. Did he know someone went inside the building by telepathy? NO... Burglary is a felony.

Burglary is typically defined as the unlawful entry into almost any structure (not just a home or business) with the intent to commit any crime inside (not just theft/larceny). No physical breaking and entering is required; the offender may simply trespass through an open door. Unlike robbery, which involves use of force or fear to obtain another person's property, there is usually no victim present during a burglary.

For example, Dan enters Victor's boathouse through an open window, intending to steal Victor's boat. Finding the boat is gone, Dan returns home. Though he took nothing, Dan has committed burglary.