GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 #2

[firebird]

So what would you have done if this was happening on your street?

I would have confronted him the first time I saw him, as I've done in the past with people parked in front of my house late at night. If it happened more than once, or the person was particularly suspicious, I would have called the police, as the M's did here. And if he fled THAT circumstance, as Arbery did, I don't know what I'd do since I don't own a gun, but I'd probably get one. Also, what I'd do would depend on what I know about the individual. If, for example, I knew a person was a convicted criminal and/or had a history of possessing weapons and of theft, and he was frequenting my neighborhood and repeatedly entering a vacant house on my street, that would be an all out red alert. I'd call the police and all my neighbors and my ex and hope that they would do something about it since I'm an unarmed girl. What's that saying about the police being 10 minutes away?

 

[MikeF]

I haven't found an updated video with amended voice over, only the original one where in the preamble he states this: **FACT CORRECTION** at 9:30 We are not seeing Ahmaud's arms go up in a defensive manner. That is Travis raising his shot gun. This action explains Ahmaud's reaction of turning to the right.

Click on the guys user name and you'll see his various videos, the original said posted "a week ago" the correction says posted 6 days.

 

[California Sunset]

But blocking someone from behind, even in a truck, is unlikely to clear the threshold for a conviction of false imprisonment. As the example of the webpage I linked mentioned, someone locked in a room on the first floor in a building can just climb out of the window: no false imprisonment. If being locked in a room on the first floor doesn't clear the bar for false imprisonment, than blocking someone from behind in a car is even less likely to meet it. And the video shows the event taking place on a road with massive amounts of open space for someone to run to off the road, and even through trees and brush where an individual can easily move to but vehicles most likely could not.

2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 16 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES
CHAPTER 5 - CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON
ARTICLE 3 - KIDNAPPING, FALSE IMPRISONMENT, AND RELATED OFFENSES
§ 16-5-41 - False imprisonment

He couldn't run away. He couldn't outrun a bullet.

 

[California Sunset]

I'm saying that proving the underlying felony of false imprisonment to get a felony murder conviction against Bryan is going to be very difficult, since based on the facts as we know them the required elements for false imprisonment haven't been met. And yes, the fact that Arbery could keep running off several times before the final fatal encounter will probably be an important element in that, if the case against Ryan ever makes it to trial, in particular regarding the following defenses:

False Imprisonment | Georgia Criminal Lawyer

There was a reasonable way out: If the victim knows of a reasonable means of escape, then there was no confinement. An example of this is if the victim was locked in a room on the first floor of a building and there was an open window.

The victim was not confined: Not letting someone go where they want to go is not enough to prove false imprisonment. There must be some sort of confinement. For instance, if a road was closed due to a parade and the victim wanted to go down the road but the police made her go another way, there was no false imprisonment.

That's an attorney's website, not the state law. Doesn't that make a difference?

 

[Boxer]

So what would you have done if this was happening on your street?

Put up No Trespassing signs, and orange construction barrier fencing at entrances. If no work was going to be done for a long time, board it up. Call police when cameras showed anyone trespassing.

 

[California Sunset]

That a law firm advertising site.

Yes. I didn't put up the law firm link, someone else did.
Did you go there and look? I looked up the state law and posted the title. I thought we weren't allowed to post the whole law. I'm still learning the rules here. Did I screw up again?

 

[Boxer]

_

Yes. Did you go there and look? I looked up the state law and posted the title. I thought we weren't allowed to post the whole thing. I'm still learning the rules here. Did I screw up again?

I deleted my comment.
I clicked the link and it took me to the law site, but you cited the code so, don't know. So it's probably fine.

 

[Castle22]

(BBM & shortened for brevity)
Someone in a house that is not their own is trespassing. Mr. English didn't seem to care too much. In fact, despite people continually entering his property he still did not secure it. The neighbors should have talked to him about keeping his property unsecured if they felt that it was a nuisance. Or, call the county/city if he did not. Many people entered that property and the problem is the owner as well as those going onto the property.

The issue of people going on the property is a LE issue, not a neighborhood vigilante group issue. The police were called. The police should have handled it. The killers wouldn't be in jail. And, if Mr. English decided to press charges, then anyone caught trespassing would be having their day in court--not being lowered into the ground because of vigilantes who took the law into their own hands.[/QUOTE]
__________________________________
*One of the things that has weighed on my mind most about this case is how seemingly easily Ahmaud’s life could potentially have been spared if Mr English had take action to secure his house.

I could see not securing a construction site until a certain % of completion for a routine paced build OR for a slow build when an owner lives close by - but not securing the property after 3 years? Appears potentially negligent to me when multiple people are caught on video being able walk right into the open house day or night . Or at minimum it appears that Mr English’s inaction from a legal standpoint conveyed he did not view potential trespassers as a priority or valid concern. (I have considered locks could have been an inconvenience for subcontractors, but nowadays there are multiple types of locks that can be opened via a shared code) So why would Mr English not at least try to secure the house after the first or second time he is aware of trespassers?

It’s bothered me that pictures of the house in MSM shortly after the arrests seemingly show someone has finally attempted to secure the property by installing what appear to be new garage doors and entry doors? Perhaps I’m incorrect , but If those doors are indeed new - why NOW secure the house?? Did LE demand he finally secure it or could he be feeling guilty?

It would have been such less effort to have secured the house anytime in the past years. Much easier than securing it after Mr English’s 3 years of slow constuction, $ and time to add surveillance equipment, making calls to police when multiple people entered the construction site at all hours, involving neighbors he didn’t even know well in surveillance, interacting with neighbors remotely when the cameras were set off by motion, and either participating or being privy to possible racial profiling shared on the neighborhood Facebook & Nextdoor pages if one man was single out from the other people
who entered the property.

IMO all this drawn out watching of an open house did was ignite fear & vigilante mindset based on second hand information. All this hassle, time, & energy for a property that wasn’t even secured and according to the owner nothing had been stolen or tampered with within the house specifically?!?

If there had been earlier attempts to close off entry to the house, it would have also helped clarify what would be legally criminal trespassing. And IMO have shown a clear boundary for any potentially curious or nefarious passers by. IMO, locked doors and windows pretty clearly say “do not enter”, whereas a wide open entry says “come on in”. As a precious poster suggested - why not at least put up constuction barriers?

I don’t know if Mr English legally can share culpability for Ahmaud’s death, but I hope there is accountability for his choice to
leave the house wide-open for years. To me this choice seemingly set this preventable tragedy in motion. And for his bizarre actions to involve so many people when his inaction made it too easy people to enter the property.

MOO

 

[Mandos]

I will respectfully disagree that it will be a hard sell. I will choose to have faith that GBI and the DA know the appropriate statutes and how they apply. Do you think they intentionally overcharged?

I think they're trying to get him to flip.

AA's mother has gone public saying that she wants all three men (even before Roddie was arrested) to face a death penalty sentence. I sincerely hope that prosecutors will not be swayed into a death penalty trial when it might be difficult to even win a felony murder verdict. This kind of pressure on the DA makes me nervous due to the influence of public uproar, and the need for the DA to right a wrong in the delay in laying charges. I just want to see justice done with a jury that can make a verdict based on a logical charge. jmo

I agree, making this a death penalty case would be a massive mistake on the side of the prosecution. If they did, I would assume the DA is trying to intentionally throw the case. Heck, even going for LWOP during the penalty phase would be virtually impossible. Here are the latest numbers from the Georgia DOC:

http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/sites/all/themes/gdc/pdf/Profile_lifers_2020_04.pdf

According the latest report 7408 men are currently serving life/death sentences in Georgia. 7403 (99,93%) serve life with the possibility of parole. 1 (o,01%) serves life without the possibility of parole. 3 (o,04%) are on death row, and 1 (o,01%) is a youthful offender (I'm assuming youthful offenders have a separate parole term).

In short, there is no way these guys get either the DP or LWOP, even if convicted.

 

[tayaway]

People are always in my neighborhood. I don't see it as creeping. I have a nice park nearby and the roads are nicely paved-- good for walking and jogging. They don't live here. It is not creepy.

Exactly. I live in a beautiful neighborhood. Many people come here on a daily basis to jog, walk, exercise their dogs...

 

[Vern]

I'm missing a lot of information. Can you share please where you arrive at the 4 minute pursuit? TIA

I'm going to wager that it's based on the video being 4 minutes long.

 

[tayaway]

I'm missing a lot of information. Can you share please where you arrive at the 4 minute pursuit? TIA

It was all over the news a few days ago. Here's one media source.

In addition, the NY Times did a reconstruction of the last 12 minutes of his life.

 

[MsBetsy]

Do you have a source for saying his probation wasn't revoked and he didn't spend time in jail? That's contrary to my understanding.

I don't think his past history of probation has anything to do with this crime. There was no reason for the men to believe he was a burglary suspect, which was the reason they gave for attempting to detain him.

They were looking for an excuse to chase him down and kill him. It sounds like they were excited when they learned Arbery was running down the street. They grabbed their guns and jumped in their vehicles in anticipation, with the intent to use deadly force.

Imo

 

[Castle22]

5/21/20 Court TV's “Closing Arguments” with Vinnie Politan strongly speculated that additional video, unseen by the public is part of evidence LE has to support charges of “Felony Murder” and “Criminal Attempt to Commit False Imprisonment”.

5/21/20 Man who filmed Arbery Shooting Arrested for Felony Murder - Court TV

*Vinnie Politan opened with, “We have huge breaking news of a 3rd man charged. This is a game changer in the way this case is being prosecuted. And they are getting aggressive now; a 3rd Man has been arrested.”

*...Ashley Banfield described being “super perplexed - that underlying felony would have to be that ‘Criminal Attempt to Commit False Imprisonment’...Trying to figure out how they will make a case against him for attempting to falsely imprisonments someone- if he stayed in the cab of his vehicle the entire time he was filming this and the person died before he did get out”...”to me that’s the underlying felony and you got to have that for felony murder.” She clarified she hopes at the press conference 5/22/20, “it will be revealed that GBI knows more than we do at this point”.

*...Vince said, “and one of the magic words here may be that the charge is an ATTEMPT at false imprisonment, leaning on that it was an attempt - not necessarily successful, But the attempt being the underlying felony”. He said, “I’m wondering what’s on these other videos that we haven’t seen.”

*Julie Grant stated, “Perhaps we need to know more at this juncture. We know very little. I was thinking this arrest means investigators are viewing him as some kind of co-conspirator...And think he [Roddie] was in on it and there was some kind of plan, even a quick plan. .... The one thing that shocked me was there was no stalking charge...We know in cases of the other two, aggravated assault is the underlying felony.” Julie highlighted that even getaway drivers in the commission of a felony robbery get charged with felony murder if someone dies in the process.

*Ted Rollins described, “False Imprisonment appeared to be them [at least 3 men] working in concert to block him in and chasing him down using their vehicles. I also agree there has to be more video.”

*Vince said “I agree... but could it be they are just using Gregory McMichael’s statement against Bryan?” [describing Roddie helped them.]

*Chandley Painter responded, “Right; there has to be some other evidence. I did speak with Lee Merit today and asked him there ‘Is there more than one video?’ - because Gregory McMichaels attorneys at the press conference shocked us by saying there is more than one video of the incident. Lee Merit confirming today that he has seen the other video. There is cell phone video and there is surveillance video that we’ve not seen of the chase leading up to and of the shooting this incident. So again, more evidence that Bryan was a somehow part of this group working together with the McMichaels and a party to felony murder.“

*Vince - “So is it the attempt to block him in the Attempted False Imprisonment? To unlawfully detaining him? Could be.”

*A video was played of Lee Merritt (made before the late breaking news that Roddie had been arrested and charged ) saying, “we know Roddie was there (because obviously he admitted videotaping it) following Ahmad in his truck;. ..There was some ambiguity at least at first of how he became involved in the case, but his attorney at least began to offer his explanation. Which was he was sitting at home and his attorney tells us within minutes he was behind Ahmaud, recording him. So we know that he left his home, he got in his truck, and he joined this pursuit, from his attorney’s statements. Now his co-conspirator GM has said that he [Roddie] actively was involved In trying to box Ahmaud in. And he [Roddie] tried at first and was unsuccessful, and then (obviously as we saw from watching the video) that eventually he was successful - Blocking his point of exit, when forcing Armaud to come in confrontation with the McMichaels. Those facts are actually not in dispute. The only thing that seems to be in dispute is what that means. Or Whether or not that was criminal. And from my perspective and from our experts, that clearly playing a key role in this event and Mr. Bryan will most likely face criminal charges & prosecution as well...I can say when someone has been murdered and other people have participated, although they may not have been the trigger man - a common charge that we see is felony murder. That you participated in this event that caused the death of another human being and you will be charged as well.

*Vince said earlier in the live broadcast, “It’s even possible LE observed Roddie had a loaded weapon in his truck [potentially confirming speculation a gun was cocked in video] either from the view of another video or from when he [Roddie] showed them his video when they sat inside his truck [Vince pondered if possible].

 

[Katerz]

<modsnip> The house was under construction, no one physically lived there. He wasn’t the only one who entered the structure. He wasn’t hurting anyone. He didn’t steal anything. The M’s were looking for a fight. Point blank. They picked an unarmed black male. AA deserves justice.

 

[tlcya]

Bryan, who recorded the shooting, and his attorney have maintained that he is innocent of any wrong doing. Monday evening, Bryan's attorney Kevin Gough said his client was innocent and had no prior contact or plan with the McMichaels prior to the shooting.

"The initial police report described his role in it," Merritt said. "The idea that he was just a witness, recording the video -- that's a recent invention. His role in this ambush was well documented in the original police report and is demonstrated by video."
Ahmaud Arbery: Man who recorded the fatal shooting has been arrested, GBI says - CNN

The GBI has scheduled a news conference for 9 a.m. at its DeKalb County headquarters.

11Alive will be streaming here on this page and at our YouTube channel.

GBI to deliver update on third arrest in Ahmaud Arbery case

ETA presser begins in about a half hour. I will be able to see at least part of it before I have to go. I am very curious to see if GBI will show us a bit of their hand as far as what evidenciary items prompted WB/R's arrest several weeks after the Ms. I think they have new evidence to bolster what was there already.

 

[Cryptic]

But blocking someone from behind, even in a truck, is unlikely to clear the threshold for a conviction of false imprisonment.

Presently, I think several roles for R in the crime are possible ranging from a secondary role to direct involvement:

Possible Scenario 1: 'R' impulsively attempted to block in AA when he observed AA fleeing GM. 'R' could well have believed that AA was acting with police authority (re-deputized retired LEO). In doing so, he participated in an ill advised citizen's arrest- and could have thought he was assisting a police officer make an arrest.

Possible Scenario 2: 'R' knew directly that the MMs were going to confront certain trespassers with weapons and agreed to help. In reverse, R directly incites and encourages the MMs to confront certain trespassers violently. Both scenarios have R as part of a group with a pre-stated in intent to initiate a violent confrontation.


As a hypothetical juror, I would support murder charges for option 2. I would not support murder charges for option 1. In an intermediate scenario, I would support intermediate charges.

 

[watergirl62]

I think they're trying to get him to flip.

I agree, making this a death penalty case would be a massive mistake on the side of the prosecution. If they did, I would assume the DA is trying to intentionally throw the case. Heck, even going for LWOP during the penalty phase would be virtually impossible. Here are the latest numbers from the Georgia DOC:

http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/sites/all/themes/gdc/pdf/Profile_lifers_2020_04.pdf

According the latest report 7408 men are currently serving life/death sentences in Georgia. 7403 (99,93%) serve life with the possibility of parole. 1 (o,01%) serves life without the possibility of parole. 3 (o,04%) are on death row, and 1 (o,01%) is a youthful offender (I'm assuming youthful offenders have a separate parole term).

In short, there is no way these guys get either the DP or LWOP, even if convicted.

That 1 LWOP would be Justin Ross Harris. Interesting statistics, thanks.

I agree with your thoughts about the DP. I have no issue with it morally, I have issues with it because it is a colo$$al fail, and we certainly don't need more fuel added to this fire. Yeah, maybe they are trying to get him to flip, we will have to wait and see what they have on him.

 

[tlcya]

I think it may be harder to prosecute WM as charged unless solid evidence illustrates there was premeditation and intent by him to commit a felony.

GM and TM it will be easier, but if conversations come out via text or FB group that the neighborhood group (self appointed posse) knew that GM, despite being retired LEO/investigator was not acting lawfully and was still "all in" - well then I feel it will be a much easier thing for a jury to follow.

Officer Robert Rash really complicated things by telling English to contact GM about future trespasses. It will be argued that Rash gave the appearance to the neighborhood that GM was the go-to guy as far as Glynn County PD was concerned and bestowed upon GM some sort of pseudo badge. What a mess.

 

[Cryptic]

I didn't realize that their streets were private roads. They have road services I assume. Their roads are paved by the city/county. They don't pay for the upkeep, except through taxes. This is not a gated community where trespass can be just waling within the community. As far as I knew they are public streets, no?

My vague impression is that private streets come in two general flavors:

- Fully private: neighborhood association maintains the streets. Access can be controlled by gates etc.

- Semi private: Roads are private, but maintained by city. It was explained to me once by a resident in such a neighborhood that the public has a legal easement to use these streets for travel through- but cannot loiter in the area. Private security was quick to respond to loiters either on foot or in cars.

He also mentioned that the easement cannot be used to engage in pesky door to door soliciting, even if it is permitted by the larger town etc. My guess is that Satillo Shores could be the semi private arrangement- with out the paid private security.