GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - #12

[FinePrint]

Further support as to the location SD was found:
Sportsmen Sought For Clues On Dermond Murder At Lake Oconee

 

[FinePrint]

Fineprint are you able to determine from the map that shows all of the water depths all over Lake Oconee, how deep the water would have been right there at that spot?

Also, this spot would have been over on the Greene County side, as opposed to the Putnam County side, correct?

From what I understand that is Greene Co not Putnam. I think it was a close call which county as per SS both Greene and Putnam counties responded to the 911 call.

The Topo map posted pages back show something like 30 feet of water, not exactly sure but that is from what I remember. I'll have to find that TOPO map of Oconee again.

 

[FinePrint]

This is a close up of the area SD was found. You can see Rock Island and you can see the "standing timber" in the water in that area. Per GA power standing timber was left purposely when they dredged for the lake to promote fish habitats. This was done in several areas in Lake Oconee (the lake is man made.)

 

[FinePrint]

Fineprint are you able to determine from the map that shows all of the water depths all over Lake Oconee, how deep the water would have been right there at that spot?

Also, this spot would have been over on the Greene County side, as opposed to the Putnam County side, correct?

So I confirmed the area SD was found is in Greene County. Here is a google map that shows Greene County outlined in red. The area does include the area SD was found.

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

It was clearly in Greene county where she was found, they turned he over to as in Putnam, like i said nothing is going to push her up river, the water goes OUT to Sinclair, feeding it and unloading Oconee overflow...and as the enginerrs stated that hockey reiterated, body won't move but maybe 30 ft or less

From what I understand that is Greene Co not Putnam. I think it was a close call which county as per SS both Greene and Putnam counties responded to the 911 call.

The Topo map posted pages back show something like 30 feet of water, not exactly sure but that is from what I remember. I'll have to find that TOPO map of Oconee again.

 

[1&2&3]

but...

I

Also, is it a bit of a stretch to state as fact that the Ds did not allow house guests outside of family, based on only that you've not heard of anyone ever visiting other than family?

Snipped by me.

Since their house was the last one at the end of the street, with empty lots beyond them, who can tell whether they had much company? IIRC, the house to their left, as you stand facing the house from the outside, the owners were out of the country when these murders took place. I am curious if the neighborhood had a “busy body” neighbor who knew the comings and goings of the block? How would anyone know if the Dermonds had guests inside their home?

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Empty lot between the derminda and their side neighbor house

Apparently much of this whole comminity went to lake Oconee community church as did their neighbor to the left

Many may have known much

But for someone who doesn't kniw the dermonds, to say what these people did or did not do or thought or not is a stretch and rumor

Snipped by me.

Since their house was the last one at the end of the street, with empty lots beyond them, who can tell whether they had much company? IIRC, the house to their left, as you stand facing the house from the outside, the owners were out of the country when these murders took place. I am curious if the neighborhood had a “busy body” neighbor who knew the comings and goings of the block? How would anyone know if the Dermonds had guests inside their home?

 

[deugirtni]

Snipped by me.

Since their house was the last one at the end of the street, with empty lots beyond them, who can tell whether they had much company? IIRC, the house to their left, as you stand facing the house from the outside, the owners were out of the country when these murders took place. I am curious if the neighborhood had a “busy body” neighbor who knew the comings and goings of the block? How would anyone know if the Dermonds had guests inside their home?

I think that was my point.. how would *anyone* know whether or not the Ds ever had company into their home, aside from their own fam?

It is difficult to imagine that there could be someone with that great of vision to see whom the Ds were entertaining every day (or not), considering as you said, there are vacant lots on each side of them, across from them, etc. But perhaps they in fact DID have someone like that, and that is who saw the fellow on the lawn on the Saturday?

 

[deugirtni]

Also.. it hadn't really 'hit' me until the other day when I was looking up something to do with the houses.. the size of their lots (the Ds' lot and the neighbor's lot) were really large - 3/4 acre IIRC.. so even if there was a nosey neighbor, the lots are so danged big and also so well treed.. how would one see anything.. unless they had a telescope or binoculars on them or something?

 

[deugirtni]

Further support as to the location SD was found:
Sportsmen Sought For Clues On Dermond Murder At Lake Oconee

That is reassuring to know that SS had reached out to fishermen to report anything odd seen.. I wonder how many fishermen actually got wind of this call-out?

 

[1&2&3]

A point that has always had me thinking. It is continuously reported that nothing was taken from the house. Who would know that?

The Dermonds children were grown and had not lived at home for years. They would be aware of the fine China, crystal, silver, art, mom’s jewelry that was in the home as they grew up. However, once they moved out, their knowledge of what was purchased or given to their parents as gifts would be hazy.

My three adult children would have no idea what valuables are missing from my house unless it was something they had noticed or commented on at a visit.

One more thing, in my area, when a house is staged, the interior is cleared of all uncessary items, junk and clutter and stored off site.
Did the Dermond kids go through the box’s in storage? It seemed things were done in such a rush manner, did everything get checked and logged in?

IMO, we are all overlooking a minute clue that is sitting in plain site waiting to be discovered.

 

[deugirtni]

They seemed to be quite intelligent people.. they had planned out their retirement financially and etc.. I'm thinking they would have had a safe built right into the home if they were the type to hoard cash or gold or some commodity inside their home instead of at a bank or in an investment, etc.

I'm also thinking the kids would know of all of the valuables that were worth anything much, which they likely may have had for years, such as 'family heirlooms' handed down, jewellery, coins, art, antiques, whatever, etc. The couple didn't seem the frivolous type, so I'm thinking in their later years, they likely wouldn't have made purchases of that type. (Remember utilizing old calendars as note pads? They seemed quite frugal, imho.)

I do agree that something is being overlooked, and I'm hoping it will come to light during the forensic audit of the Ds' finances.. but OTOH, I'm thinking the forensic audit is needed to both go back further than there are perhaps records still in existence for, and also that it needs to expand into the family's records, especially during the time of RD's disposal of his 19 franchises, and how that all worked.

Could very well be that rather than a 'theft' of 'goods', it may have been a theft of documentation, outlining perhaps the terms and conditions of some kind of loan(?).. however, one would hope that any such important documentation would have been kept at their lawyer's office, with only a copy perhaps at the home. But that doesn't seem to be the case either.

 

[watcher9]

They seemed to be quite intelligent people.. they had planned out their retirement financially and etc.. I'm thinking they would have had a safe built right into the home if they were the type to hoard cash or gold or some commodity inside their home instead of at a bank or in an investment, etc.

I'm also thinking the kids would know of all of the valuables that were worth anything much, which they likely may have had for years, such as 'family heirlooms' handed down, jewellery, coins, art, antiques, whatever, etc. The couple didn't seem the frivolous type, so I'm thinking in their later years, they likely wouldn't have made purchases of that type. (Remember utilizing old calendars as note pads? They seemed quite frugal, imho.)

I do agree that something is being overlooked, and I'm hoping it will come to light during the forensic audit of the Ds' finances.. but OTOH, I'm thinking the forensic audit is needed to both go back further than there are perhaps records still in existence for, and also that it needs to expand into the family's records, especially during the time of RD's disposal of his 19 franchises, and how that all worked.

Could very well be that rather than a 'theft' of 'goods', it may have been a theft of documentation, outlining perhaps the terms and conditions of some kind of loan(?).. however, one would hope that any such important documentation would have been kept at their lawyer's office, with only a copy perhaps at the home. But that doesn't seem to be the case either.

Or, a new will?

 

[watcher9]

Here is the route from the Dermonds to where SD was found "to the left of Rock Island. Please read the 911 transcript from the fisherman that gives the exact location of where her body was found. It is not near the dam but approx 2 miles north of the dam.
View attachment 188523

Thank you for the map. It was just what was needed in this thread, that and all the following posts you made with more info. Thanks for all your help.
One more thing that could be helpful is showing how far wide it is between the two shores. From pictures I have seen, it's quite a distance - not like traveling through a narrow channel and getting tripped up at night like you would in a swamp.

 

[wildebeest]

It has been of great interest to me, because first, I wanted to visually wrap my head around SS saying it wasn't possible for SD's body to have been 'dumped' by any other means than boat, based on the location where she was found, because that location was not accessible by land; and further, SS said that where she was discovered, could not have been very far from where she was 'dumped' - which he reportedly backed up with professional opinions of experts in that field in regard to this particular water body.

Secondly, SS's statements regarding where she was discovered seemed contradictory many times, such as 'she was found in the deepest part of the lake', or she was found in 60', or 50', or 47' of water (he changed it often), but yet she was also caught on tree branches, which likely aren't located in the deepest parts; and then also taking into consideration that she was found not on the Putnam County side of the waterway; and then what the fisherman said during his 911 phonecall when he discovered what he believed to be a body - it also didn't seem to jive with what SS was saying about the deepest part, etc. It all should have meshed into one location, but it wasn't seeming to do that (imho).

I find it a pertinent piece of info to know, because it is a huge thing if that body HAD to have been dropped in the lake by boat. To me, that substantially narrows down the list of possibilities as to who the murderer(s) could have been.

Surely someone inexperienced in that particular lake (due to its shallow vs deep areas, rock areas, and trees sticking out of the water all over the place), and/or someone inexperienced with operating a boat at all, would NOT have chosen a spot in *that* lake, which could *only* be accessed by boat. The person(s) would have risked his/their motor getting severely damaged, and possibly the boat too (which could have potentially helped to get him/them caught if they came home with boat damages(?), and considering the lengths he/they went to, to hide evidence of him/themselves, it wouldn't make sense). And an inexperienced boat operator may have found him/herself in a lot of trouble if something had happened with the boat due to their inexperience - and can you imagine lugging a dead body in the middle of the night and having to call for help?? D)

But yet SS also believes the murderer is NOT a local.. so how (and when) did the murderer(s) become familiar enough with *this* lake full of obstacles and points and juts and rocks and fingers and TREES, enough to risk driving a dead body some 5-6 miles from the D home, likely in the dark, and keeping in mind how sound very much travels on/near the water?

Good post. Perhaps someone who had visited the Dermonds, and gone out on the water with them at an earlier time.

IMHO

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Thank you for the map. It was just what was needed in this thread, that and all the following posts you made with more info. Thanks for all your help.
One more thing that could be helpful is showing how far wide it is between the two shores. From pictures I have seen, it's quite a distance - not like traveling through a narrow channel and getting tripped up at night like you would in a swamp.

Probably 1000 ft give or take? Im looking at my property 1000 deep for comparison, Google maps... it can be measured

 

[deugirtni]

Good post. Perhaps someone who had visited the Dermonds, and gone out on the water with them at an earlier time.

IMHO

Yes, perhaps someone who had visited often, perhaps with their own children, and gone out on their own boats which they perhaps brought with them, went fishing, sightseeing, waterskiing, tubing, perhaps even took the Ds for a spin from time to time to perhaps see how the area was becoming more built-up over the years, etc.

 

[TJtennispro]

Here is the route from the Dermonds to where SD was found "to the left of Rock Island. Please read the 911 transcript from the fisherman that gives the exact location of where her body was found. It is not near the dam but approx 2 miles north of the dam.
View attachment 188523

<modsnip - bickering>

Two boat ramps could’ve been used. The one you marked is not the one they would’ve used.

<modsnip - bickering>

 

[TJtennispro]

I corrected myself from @dancinunderthemoon misleading post so not relevant.

No offence TP, I am pretty geographically-challenged or directionally-challenged myself... but it seems to me that your map showing the route from 147 Carolyn to the spot where SD was found, which you attached with the black line, is in precisely the wrong direction, and in the opposite direction of the dam. From the Ds' house looking out from their property to the lake, once out of the cove, one would need to turn 'right' to get closer to the dam, wouldn't they? Here is a googlemap showing 147 Carolyn, in relation to where your directions lead to (nearing Hwy#44), and in the exact opposite direction to the dam.
View attachment 188521
Google Maps

 

[TJtennispro]

Except half the landmarks are incorrect.

Oh thanks so much FP!! That is perfect.. shows ALL of the pertinent landmarks.. not such a straight-forward route at all, imho.. and then to consider all of the trees.. rocks.. juts of land.. in the dark.. wow.. that would have been the last place I would have been traveling to dump a body, let me tell you!