Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home.

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  • #721
what kinds of pills did they find on the floor and throughout the house? toxicology results? certainly there is a COD..undetermined is a very nebulous autopsy finding.

no pneumonia
no heart failure
no stroke or rupture
no injuries
no organ failure or progression of disease.
no inhalation injury
weird.

mOO
 
  • #722
Odd that he thinks he's the caretaker.
I've heard caretaker used as a job title for someone who takes care of buildings/does maintenance. Maybe that's the title this gated community uses for its maintenance staff.
 
  • #723

IMO, I would take this article with a grain of salt because, yes, the pills would be important evidence because they were scattered and spilled.

But, they also spelled 'foul play' as 'fowl play' in the article and I doubt very much that a chicken or bird had anything to do with it.

According to the article:
"Noting that the sheriff might not be at liberty to say what the prescription was due to medical privacy, Guthrie wondered if Mendoza believed "it may be possible that that prescription could be related in any way to the deaths that we’ve seen here?"

"That’s obviously very important evidence at the scene," Mendoza said in response about the medication, which was found left open with pills scattered near Arakawa’s body. "That information was collected, that information was passed to the office of the medical investigator to help them make a determination. So we’re looking at that specifically and other medications that were possibly in the residence. So that is something of concern.""


UPDATE: They fixed the FOWL PLAY spelling...lol
 
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  • #724
Investigators already would have counted how much medication is left vs what was on the scripts.
 
  • #725
what kinds of pills did they find on the floor and throughout the house? toxicology results? certainly there is a COD..undetermined is a very nebulous autopsy finding.

no pneumonia
no heart failure
no stroke or rupture
no injuries
no organ failure or progression of disease.
no inhalation injury
weird.

mOO
The common pills that doctors put older people on are statins, blood pressure meds., arthritis meds., pain killers, psych meds., etc.. I don't know how a bottle spilled on the floor would be relevant to cause of death except that either someone was reaching for the bottle and spilled them without being able to clean them up or as something to make it look like asphyxiation where people starting to lose consciousness lose control of their reflexes.
 
  • #726
I was wondering about a malfunctioning fireplace (not properly or insufficiently vented?) Once the fire burned out, there would be no sign of CO remaining as it slowly (or quickly) dissipated after the fuel was consumed?
I think discussion on CO danger is not counter productive or anything to dismiss considering the cold weather and elevation.
Yes, a fireplace can produce carbon monoxide (CO), a poisonous gas that can cause fatal poisoning. CO is also known as the "silent killer" because it's odorless, colorless, and tasteless.

How CO can occur
  • Improper maintenance: A damaged flue, separated components, or a rusted heat exchanger can restrict ventilation and cause CO to build up

  • Reverse air flow: A tightly sealed house can cause air to flow back into the home instead of up the chimney

  • Incomplete combustion: An improperly maintained gas fireplace can produce
It's hard to imagine the volume of carbon monoxide necessary in a large house, probably well-ventilated and is the style with houses like that especially in Santa Fe, high tech., super-insulated with passive solar. For example I need very little heat in winter here in SW CT due to passive solar and it is a lot colder here in winter.
 
  • #727
I don't know how a bottle spilled on the floor would be relevant to cause of death except that either someone was reaching for the bottle and spilled them without being able to clean them up or as something to make it look like asphyxiation where people starting to lose consciousness lose control of their reflexes.
IMO, at this point, there is no obvious cause of death (stabbing, shooting, etc.) so the pill bottles and anything else they find around the scene would be important evidence.
 
  • #728
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the dogs were eating Gene and his wife to survive, sickening thought but when starving people/animals do whatever it takes, like those survivors of a plane crash that ate the deceased to survive
The front door was locked. Dogs were outside.

The Sheriff’s Office said in a statement that deputies were called to the scene after a maintenance worker who had gone to the home to perform some work on Wednesday afternoon grew concerned when no one answered the door. The worker asked local security officers to conduct a welfare check, and when they arrived and saw unresponsive bodies through the window they called 911.

 
  • #729
Investigators already would have counted how much medication is left vs what was on the scripts.
Plus, I don’t think (if it was a suicide) that she would have instantaneously died while taking the pills — Just doesn’t add up
 
  • #730
The fact that only 1 dog died while 2 others are alive and well clearly indicates that this was not a planned murder-suicide pact or anything of that sort. The dogs were suddenly left without their caretaker. It is unclear if the dead dog was found locked in the closet or outside next to Betsy's body in the bathroom. If the former, it probably died of thirst and starvation. If the latter, it probably ate the fallen pills. The other 2 dogs being loose, managed to find something to eat and drink especially if there was a doggy door that they could use to go outside.
So what happened to Gene and Betsy? Occam's razor suggests that since both of them appeared to have suddenly fallen, Betsy probably had a medical incident and fell first. Could have been a heart attack. With no one to help her in that medical emergency, she passed. Gene might have called out to her when he needed help but no one came. We don't know if he even found her in the bathroom. Maybe he decided to head outside to see if she was there. He wasn't going outside to call for help. He was simply looking for her and thought she was outside, since she didn't respond to him when he called. But given his advanced age and health conditions, he didn't make it too far. Fell in the mudroom and couldn't get up and didn't have anyone to help him or respond to his calls for help. Eventually passed. Very sad if that is how it went down. I guess this is why older people should always have an emergency button or something they can press when they need help or fall. In this case, given Betsy was much younger than him, they probably thought they didn't need external support. MOO. RIP to both of them and the dog.
Hackman was found in the mudroom and his wife in a bathroom. Mudrooms are usually designated for a secondary entrance, maybe from a garage rather than having one at the front door. So I'd to know which door was open, the front or the back door. I'm interested to know how they were both dressed. Two weeks prior on Feb 13 the temperature in Santa Fe had a high of 15 degrees F with a low of -3. The older you are the more you feel the cold. I wonder if he was anything like my dad who at a younger age would say, "Cold? Then put on a sweater." He didn't follow his own advice when he got older, though, the heating bills were crazy. So if the Hackmans had space heaters around the house, it must have been chilly yet when he was found he was only wearing a long sleeved t-shirt and sweatpants. The fact he had sunglasses on made me think that his going out was planned rather than hastily trying to go outside to find help for his wife. Unless his sunglasses were some kind of prescription lens. In the images of him and his wife outside a year earlier he didn't have any glasses on at all.

For me there's an elephant in the room when it comes to age and dementia. I know when my mom started showing signs of dementia my dad would make excuses for us coming to see them. Too busy, too cold, not the right time, etc. so they became fairly insulated. I had to bully my way into the house for him to relent. I find it odd that a 95 year old with obvious signs of physical decline had very little contact with the outside world and I wonder if his wife did what my dad did and tried to insulate her very famous husband's decline from public scrutiny even limiting his children visiting. This is all speculation on my part based on my own experiences. Whatever happened is pretty sad since they had been dead for a significant amount of time without any visitors, caretakers, or family.
 
  • #731
The front door was locked. Dogs were outside.

The Sheriff’s Office said in a statement that deputies were called to the scene after a maintenance worker who had gone to the home to perform some work on Wednesday afternoon grew concerned when no one answered the door. The worker asked local security officers to conduct a welfare check, and when they arrived and saw unresponsive bodies through the window they called 911.
One alive/healthy dog was near the body of Betsy when the office entered, according to the search warrant.
The warrant also said that the dogs had access to the a doggy door and that the front door was ajar/unsecured.
 
  • #732
That's the thing. Maybe something was going on with the furnace. As we know, furnaces can cause this sort of thing.

The space heater is almost certainly electric, which doesn't emit CO. But it may be a sign of some sort of heating issue, which explains the cause.

I think it's important.
They still make kerosene space heaters in the US. In Japan, people heat their entire homes with them. (We lived in Japan and I found out during last year's earthquake that they are still the norm) Homes generally don't have central duct work in Japan.

In Japan, we ran the heater in the evening and turned it off at bedtime. It heated the whole house (which was probably 800 sq ft)
 
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  • #733
If the maintenance man saw both bodies, then why didn't he see that the front door was open?

Given that Betty was by the front door and he saw her through the window?

I'm not very good at spatial awareness imagining, so maybe it's a geography question. But it's confusing.
The deputies were called to the scene after a maintenance worker who had gone to the home to perform some work on Wednesday afternoon grew concerned when no one answered the door, the sheriff’s office said in a statement. The worker asked local security officers to conduct a welfare check, and when they arrived and saw unresponsive bodies through the window they called 911.

In the 911 call the maintenance worker said the door was shut and locked.
 
  • #734
Hackman was found in the mudroom and his wife in a bathroom. Mudrooms are usually designated for a secondary entrance, maybe from a garage rather than having one at the front door. So I'd to know which door was open, the front or the back door. I'm interested to know how they were both dressed. Two weeks prior on Feb 13 the temperature in Santa Fe had a high of 15 degrees F with a low of -3. The older you are the more you feel the cold. I wonder if he was anything like my dad who at a younger age would say, "Cold? Then put on a sweater." He didn't follow his own advice when he got older, though, the heating bills were crazy. So if the Hackmans had space heaters around the house, it must have been chilly yet when he was found he was only wearing a long sleeved t-shirt and sweatpants. The fact he had sunglasses on made me think that his going out was planned rather than hastily trying to go outside to find help for his wife. Unless his sunglasses were some kind of prescription lens. In the images of him and his wife outside a year earlier he didn't have any glasses on at all.

For me there's an elephant in the room when it comes to age and dementia. I know when my mom started showing signs of dementia my dad would make excuses for us coming to see them. Too busy, too cold, not the right time, etc. so they became fairly insulated. I had to bully my way into the house for him to relent. I find it odd that a 95 year old with obvious signs of physical decline had very little contact with the outside world and I wonder if his wife did what my dad did and tried to insulate her very famous husband's decline from public scrutiny even limiting his children visiting. This is all speculation on my part based on my own experiences. Whatever happened is pretty sad since they had been dead for a significant amount of time without any visitors, caretakers, or family.
The low temperature was 15 degrees on February 13, not -3 and the high was 48 degrees.

 
  • #735
Whatever has happened here, it seems that an 'unlikely' or 'unlucky' series of events has transpired.

Even if CO poisoning, they have to have died within such a short space of time that neither could call 911.

Isn't the reason CO poisoning kills people 'at the same time' because it usually kills you while you're asleep?

These people weren't in bed. They were up and about, in the bathroom, wearing sunglasses, walking cane etc.
No. My Dad and his buddy were having after work drinks and the CO poisoning wafted in and killed them both sitting up. It looked like they were in the middle of a conversation and then poof they died.

My guess is she went to get her medication for the day and the poison filled the air, she went down, knocked her pills every where and possibly knocked over a space heater. While that was happening GH came through the door at the mud room and was immediately taken by the poisoning and hit the floor.
 
  • #736
Exactly. And a door was open. Apparently not the front door per 911 call, but one was open. How near either of the bodies?
Which door? I hadn't read that.
 
  • #737
It was reported.
Also,
decomposition was due to higher level of moisture in the bathroom than in mud room IMO.

JMO
How would there be higher levels of moisture in the bathroom, when no one was using the bathroom?
 
  • #738
  • #739
No. My Dad and his buddy were having after work drinks and the CO poisoning wafted in and killed them both sitting up. It looked like they were in the middle of a conversation and then poof they died.

My guess is she went to get her medication for the day and the poison filled the air, she went down, knocked her pills every where and possibly knocked over a space heater. While that was happening GH came through the door at the mud room and was immediately taken by the poisoning and hit the floor.
I'm sorry for your loss - how tragic for your dad and his friend.

But, also, this is my working theory, as well.
I think the other two dogs were outside when this happened.
 
  • #740
How would there be higher levels of moisture in the bathroom, when no one was using the bathroom?
Bathrooms typically have higher moisture because their is always water in the toilet.

Obviously moisture is much higher if the shower or sink is being used.
 
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