General Discussion and Theories #2

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #721
The right to freedom of expression and opinions is a fundamental right as set out in Section 2of the Charter; the presumption of innocence is a right contained in Section 11 of the Charter which sets out the rights you have when you are charged with an offence and treatment within the judicial system as a result of such charge. It does not override fundamental rights of average citizens outside of the judicial system having an opinion:

from:
http://www.charterofrights.ca/en/16_00_02


The right to freedom of expression is not absolute, not is it always right. You have a right to say horribly racist things, but that doesn't mean that it is right, and asserting that it is your right to say racist things doesn't excuse the fact that by doing so you are denying other rights to other members of society. Not to say that you would say these things, just as an example. Everyone knows that freedom of expression does not allow for the yelling of "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, because it could cause harm to those inside who panic. I think that the point being made here is that people have the right to be presumed innocent and that right, like other human rights should extend to people outside of court as well, since everyone going around presuming someone is guilty because of what they have heard in the media, with no first hand knowledge themselves, can actually be harmful to someone because they cannot now get a fair trial, and will likely be found guilty even if they are innocent because of that prejudice given to the jury pool by the media and general gossip.

The courtrooms were traditionally the first places where racial discrimination was not tolerated, and now it is the norm to find the general public is no longer accustomed to denying anyone equal rights, perhaps some day in the future, people will take the right to be presumed innocent to the level of acceptance it deserves in society.
 
  • #722
The right to freedom of expression and opinions is a fundamental right as set out in Section 2of the Charter; the presumption of innocence is a right contained in Section 11 of the Charter which sets out the rights you have when you are charged with an offence and treatment within the judicial system as a result of such charge. It does not override fundamental rights of average citizens outside of the judicial system having an opinion:

from:
http://www.charterofrights.ca/en/16_00_02

From your link, the right to freedom of expression does have limitations if it infringes on someone else's rights or causes harm.

Rights and freedoms protected by the Charter are not absolute. They can be limited under section 1 of the Charter if, for example, they cause harm to others. (See Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms section)

These rights are not absolute. Under section 1, these rights can be limited to protect other rights or values important to Canadian society.

That being said, this is a discussion board where everyone deserves the right to express their opinions and make their own decisions.

From the Charter...

In a democracy, you need to be free to make your own choices and to express your opinion. Likewise, it is important to respect the choices and freedoms of others, even when you don't agree. Sometimes, for example, people in the majority might try to use their power to silence the voices of people who are in the minority. By protecting fundamental freedoms of everyone, the Charter supports a healthy democracy.

JMO
 
  • #723
As a point of reference, what makes DM specially deserving of having his rights defended here? I don't see other accused criminals, even Canadian ones, receiving the same care and attention. Surely ones with less financial means to defend themselves are equally deserving of concern for their putative innocence.

I think if we could understand what is so special about DM, some of these conversations may be less rancorous.

There will always be people who defend the rights of accused, just as there will always be people who think someone is guilty and others who have doubts. There is nothing "special" about DM or this case, other than the extensive media coverage it has been given.

JMO
 
  • #724
The Charter is what it is, so you'll have to take that up with the Charter people. IT specifically sets out that the right which you are so concerned about is a right when someone is charged with an offence.

You can disagree with the Charter all you like or put your own spin on it, and you have the right to express that disagreement, but nobody has the right to tell others how to think, including me ;)

WS would not exist if we could only talk about an accused being innocent.

This must be boring for other WSrs, so I will end my contribution to the topic.

If you re-read my post you may see that I am not disagreeing with the charter...and was not spinning anything.

I pointed out that rights are rights regardless whether they are written down with a stamp seal and signature.

On the contrary WS would exist perfectly well if a rule was a presumption of innocence. Simply because everyone would have to base their posts on facts and be trying to clear the accused not convict him (that is a prosecutors job) This would mean that even though some would believe him guilty, they would have to show clear factual evidence supported by the circumstantial evidence and then after that any intent on the part of the accused. Intent being a very large part of any murder case.

The only websleuthers that may be bored are those that care little about peoples rights.... imo... But I cannot read minds especially cyber minds so I cannot judge from where I sit. I like to believe that most people are fair minded.... even if at times I am proved very very wrong. JMO
 
  • #725
CURIOUS....everyone seems to talking about DM right to remain silent ...and yes he holds that right....

Why is there NO talking about MS who is doing the same thing...any answers.....?

There are no posts in ages about MS.....???I am kindly asking ....thanks if anyone replies robynhood....
 
  • #726
Yes I agree.... unless of course in doing so it would cause a problem for ones family and/or friend(s), or themselves. Even inside a jail you are not safe if someone wants to 'deal with you'. And also as I have mentioned before.... it would not be wise to go to prosecution at this point when you are in a defendant position. Better to work through lawyer JMO

If DM were concerned for his safety for some reason, IMO it would not make any sense for him to be out, rather it would be 'safer' for him to be holed up inside somewhere.
Millard, who police believe was driving the pickup truck during the incident, has such a tattoo, police said. Millard was arrested on Cawthra Rd
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/11/tim_bosma_arrest_made_hamilton_police_say.html

Also, it would make more sense IMO if he were trying to hide out, that he not do it at his known residence, rather another property he owned which maybe whomever he was hiding from would not be so aware of
He was last seen by neighbours Wednesday evening working outside on his house with a few other men
http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2013/05/12/hamilton-bosma-mother.html
 
  • #727
CURIOUS....everyone seems to talking about DM right to remain silent ...and yes he holds that right....

Why is there NO talking about MS who is doing the same thing...any answers.....?

There are no posts in ages about MS.....???I am kindly asking ....thanks if anyone replies robynhood....

Absolutely Mark Smich has the same rights..... maybe we should take this to the Mark Smich discussion also and even up the discussions...
 
  • #728
As a point of reference, what makes DM specially deserving of having his rights defended here? I don't see other accused criminals, even Canadian ones, receiving the same care and attention. Surely ones with less financial means to defend themselves are equally deserving of concern for their putative innocence.

I think if we could understand what is so special about DM, some of these conversations may be less rancorous.

Huh? Swedie just told us MR had his rights defended and he wasnt special either.

What is special is this case and it became special via a Facebook campaign for a missing man.

One can ask (with no disrespect intended) what was so special about this victim beside so many other thousands of innocent victims whose stories are never told like TBs has?

We defend because nothing seems to fit.
 
  • #729
Huh? Swedie just told us MR had his rights defended and he wasnt special either.

What is special is this case and it became special via a Facebook campaign for a missing man.

One can ask (with no disrespect intended) what was so special about this victim beside so many other thousands of innocent victims whose stories are never told like TBs has?

We defend because nothing seems to fit.

Murders are, thankfully, relatively rare in Canada and I think most people feel confident that such crimes are the province of drug trafficers, organized crime, mental patients and the occasional cuckolded drunk husband. In other words, most Canadians can't imagine a situation where a murderer would actually come to one's home to randomly take a life. I think that in addition to such theatre de l'absurd uniquely associated with this case, <modsnip>
 
  • #730
Huh? Swedie just told us MR had his rights defended and he wasnt special either.

What is special is this case and it became special via a Facebook campaign for a missing man.

One can ask (with no disrespect intended) what was so special about this victim beside so many other thousands of innocent victims whose stories are never told like TBs has?

We defend because nothing seems to fit.

IMO what made this case so huge so quickly was the rarity of the situation. It spread so fast because I assume people were wanting to alert others who may be trying to sell a vehicle online, to be very cautious as the perps very well may have been looking to steal more vehicles. The desperate plea from SB tugged at everyones' heartstrings, knowing she was a young woman with a two year old daughter desperate to find her husband and the father to her child.

Definitely the fb campaign helped to spread it quickly thanks to TB's friend who set it up and monitored it. Also what helped to spread the news was the tight knit community in which he lived. Sure one can ask and I will list off IMO a few things special about TB. He was a charming, loving, husband, father, brother, son, uncle, had a big circle of friends. He had a business of his own which he worked hard at to make it work. Special in a sense he built the beautiful home he and his family lived in, and most of all he sounded like just an all around fun, easy going, decent human being.

There are comments I have read in the MSM in which some people sound very bitter over the fact there has been fundraising and donations for SB and her and Tim's daughter. Personally I find it totally disgusting and disturbing people would have the audacity to vent such filth. There are people who are more than happy to help this family in any way they can whether it be through money donations, charity concerts, spending time with SB and/or her daughter, people taking care of their daughter to give SB some space in her time of need to grieve, donations of food, flowers, ect. Fundraising for families of such a tragic nature are not unusual and obviously in this case, gratefully appreciated as stressed numerous times by SB herself. What is beautiful, is the fact she is donating some of the money back to help other victims who may find themselves in the same predicament some day. She has a huge heart IMHO. Bottom line is SB did not ask for these donations, people gave from the goodness of their hearts and bless them. :moo:

I presume guilty because I believe LE made no errors in arresting the two accused because they have ample and sufficient evidence gathered before the arrests, which will prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt against MS and DM. Not to mention, it is my right to view this case however I chose. Until I am privy to more information or logical theories, which raise reasonable doubt in my mind, this is JMHO. HTH.
 
  • #731
IMO what made this case so huge so quickly was the rarity of the situation. It spread so fast because I assume people were wanting to alert others who may be trying to sell a vehicle online, to be very cautious as the perps very well may have been looking to steal more vehicles. The desperate plea from SB tugged at everyones' heartstrings, knowing she was a young woman with a two year old daughter desperate to find her husband and the father to her child.

Definitely the fb campaign helped to spread it quickly thanks to TB's friend who set it up and monitored it. Also what helped to spread the news was the tight knit community in which he lived. Sure one can ask and I will list off IMO a few things special about TB. He was a charming, loving, husband, father, brother, son, uncle, had a big circle of friends. He had a business of his own which he worked hard at to make it work. Special in a sense he built the beautiful home he and his family lived in, and most of all he sounded like just an all around fun, easy going, decent human being.

There are comments I have read in the MSM in which some people sound very bitter over the fact there has been fundraising and donations for SB and her and Tim's daughter. Personally I find it totally disgusting and disturbing people would have the audacity to vent such filth. There are people who are more than happy to help this family in any way they can whether it be through money donations, charity concerts, spending time with SB and/or her daughter, people taking care of their daughter to give SB some space in her time of need to grieve, donations of food, flowers, ect. Fundraising for families of such a tragic nature are not unusual and obviously in this case, gratefully appreciated as stressed numerous times by SB herself. What is beautiful, is the fact she is donating some of the money back to help other victims who may find themselves in the same predicament some day. She has a huge heart IMHO. Bottom line is SB did not ask for these donations, people gave from the goodness of their hearts and bless them. :moo:

I presume guilty because I believe LE made no errors in arresting the two accused because they have ample and sufficient evidence gathered before the arrests, which will prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt against MS and DM. Not to mention, it is my right to view this case however I chose. Until I am privy to more information or logical theories, which raise reasonable doubt in my mind, this is JMHO. HTH.

BBM. Totally agree with this, Swedie. It's a shame that not every missing person's case gets this much attention, but that isn't the fault of TB's family. I also get completely disgusted by some of the sly digs at SB - on here, even - in regards to the fundraisers.
 
  • #732
BBM. Totally agree with this, Swedie. It's a shame that not every missing person's case gets this much attention, but that isn't the fault of TB's family. I also get completely disgusted by some of the sly digs at SB - on here, even - in regards to the fundraisers.

And I agree with this except I dont remember anyone making digs here about the fundraisers except to make the same point you just made that it is a shame not every victim of crime's family was the recipient of such generosity. Unless something was said that went over my head here but I dont recall anything near the maliciousness I've seen elsewhere. I did read some disgusting accusations during my short time on FB groups that didnt sit well with me.

On the other hand I also read some cockamamie idea on another forum suggesting a petition go around demanding MB to sell DM's new condo immediately and give SB the proceeds; if MB is a good mother and person apparently that's what she should do, even before the trial commences.

That forum was no more profound or mature than the FB groups.

(Thank God for WS!!!)

Sent using Tapatalk 2
 
  • #733
There will always be people who defend the rights of accused, just as there will always be people who think someone is guilty and others who have doubts. There is nothing "special" about DM or this case, other than the extensive media coverage it has been given.

JMO

All you have to do is look at the other threads of criminals awaiting trials here to see that's not true. Acting like DM isn't getting a lot of defense from a dedicated group here (that also does not defend other charged murderers) is specious at best, disingenuous at worst. Randy Allen Taylor, just to throw a name out, is getting slaughtered here due to, according to his lawyer, a single hair. No body, no vehicle found in his possession, circumstantial association with the victim.
 
  • #734
Well let's just say it's a good thing many do not take the time to read those disturbing post in the MSM as they are quite telling and IMHO goes to show the unhealthy frame of mind some people suffer from. It's one thing to not believe in donating to charities to assist the less fortunate, but it's another thing when people feel the need to spew their honest opinions in these articles and elsewhere. I feel absolutely terrible for those people who harbour such negative and unjustified jealous feelings toward others who have been forced into such disastrous situations due to no fault of their own. Great pity should be given to those unfortunate soles who suffer such unhealthy opinions. And the fact they believe they can hide behind the www, remaining anonymous is even more disturbing because these mentally unstable soles actually do show their truth colours this way. It's comparative to sexual perverts who lure teenagers into sexual conversations on the www. Then there are those perverts who go one step further and find out personal information about their victim and use it against them to further feed their sick, warped minds. Thankfully everything put out there on the www is traceable and can be tracked back to the offender. It doesn't even have to be LE to traces the evidence back if one is resourceful enough with computers kwim. Odd what some people do for entertainment and to get attention. MOO and HTH. ;)

And to jump back to the fact that an incinerator was found on DM's property. To me it seems telling that they would haul it away if they found no evidence of it being used. Which also goes to the fact the Bobcat was hauled away also. Makes me consider maybe it was stolen property and LE seized it. Otherwise why bother to take it also. I have seen pictures of that Bobcat in one of the hangars. Which hanger I cannot remember, but when I get time, I will look into it. Something I find troublesome also is the fact it was reported other remains were found of the property but then MSM and LE were quick to deny. I guess once the PB was set, MSM would not be entitled to hear as to whether LE have found anymore remains while investigating. Because LB and WM's cases have a common denominator with DM, we will not be informed of what if anything is/was discovered regarding them until trial. I am sure LB's family would be notified because it is their daughter, but we the public are just that; the public. MOO.
 
  • #735
And I agree with this except I dont remember anyone making digs here about the fundraisers except to make the same point you just made that it is a shame not every victim of crime's family was the recipient of such generosity. Unless something was said that went over my head here but I dont recall anything near the maliciousness I've seen elsewhere. I did read some disgusting accusations during my short time on FB groups that didnt sit well with me.

On the other hand I also read some cockamamie idea on another forum suggesting a petition go around demanding MB to sell DM's new condo immediately and give SB the proceeds; if MB is a good mother and person apparently that's what she should do, even before the trial commences.

That forum was no more profound or mature than the FB groups.

(Thank God for WS!!!)

Sent using Tapatalk 2

Like you I'm baffled by the suggestion that calling attention to the fundraisers is some sort of a backhanded attack on the Bosma family. For my part I've attempted to keep WS readers up to date on the various benefits and events (in the appropriate thread) and simply can't fathom what is wrong with doing so. Surely it is also stating the obvious that the extended Bosma family and church community has been very dedicated in calling attention to this crime. For the life of me I don't see what on earth is wrong with either the fact itself or calling attention to it. That's MOO, of course. If referencing benefits and fundraising for victim's families is off limits let's abide by the rule and carry on. IMHO.
 
  • #736
Like you I'm baffled by the suggestion that calling attention to the fundraisers is some sort of a backhanded attack on the Bosma family. For my part I've attempted to keep WS readers up to date on the various benefits and events (in the appropriate thread) and simply can't fathom what is wrong with doing so. Surely it is also stating the obvious that the extended Bosma family and church community has been very dedicated in calling attention to this crime. For the life of me I don't see what on earth is wrong with either the fact itself or calling attention to it. That's MOO, of course. If referencing benefits and fundraising for victim's families is off limits let's abide by the rule and carry on. IMHO.


Absolutely... if the family has no problem advocating for the 18 combined charity/fundraisers in TB's name why should it be a problem for anyone else? If anyone is interested in donating to this worthy cause then they can simply google TB's name and the word 'fundraiser' and all of the existing 18 fundraisers will show up. They can then click the donate button and effect whichever donation they choose..... Hope This Helps should anyone wish to donate. I have no problem moving on from this subject, however, so that we can all get back to the task of sleuthing.... MOO
 
  • #737
Like you I'm baffled by the suggestion that calling attention to the fundraisers is some sort of a backhanded attack on the Bosma family. For my part I've attempted to keep WS readers up to date on the various benefits and events (in the appropriate thread) and simply can't fathom what is wrong with doing so. Surely it is also stating the obvious that the extended Bosma family and church community has been very dedicated in calling attention to this crime. For the life of me I don't see what on earth is wrong with either the fact itself or calling attention to it. That's MOO, of course. If referencing benefits and fundraising for victim's families is off limits let's abide by the rule and carry on. IMHO.



BBM This is a discussion board and discussing fundraising, donations and do gooders pertaining to the victims family is not off limits FYI so I HTH. I am enlightened by reading the wonderful intentions of the vast majority and how a community and people have felt the "want" to assist the victim's family in such a profound and caring way. Kudos to all those warm hearted, generous people how have donated. One day if they tragically find themselves in a situation of need, I'm certain SB will step right up and assist them financially and emotional in the best way she knows how. This is why she has made a trust fund in honour of her loving husband, setting aside money which was donated to her. As she said, she likes to believe something good can come out of something so bad. Bottom line is, people gave because they wanted to give and that is their business. I believe in karma; what goes around comes around and those with such jealous and warped thinking and accusations will pay for their negative thoughts and words one day. JMHO.

WOW! :woohoo::party: That is amazing and so touching. I had no idea there were 18! Thank you for that information. Just goes to show there are truly a lot of kind hearted people who actually do care about the victims in this case.
MOO
 
  • #738
BBM This is a discussion board and discussing fundraising, donations and do gooders pertaining to the victims family is not off limits FYI so I HTH. I am enlightened by reading the wonderful intentions of the vast majority and how a community and people have felt the "want" to assist the victim's family in such a profound and caring way. Kudos to all those warm hearted, generous people how have donated. One day if they tragically find themselves in a situation of need, I'm certain SB will step right up and assist them financially and emotional in the best way she knows how. This is why she has made a trust fund in honour of her loving husband, setting aside money which was donated to her. As she said, she likes to believe something good can come out of something so bad. Bottom line is, people gave because they wanted to give and that is their business. I believe in karma; what goes around comes around and those with such jealous and warped thinking and accusations will pay for their negative thoughts and words one day. JMHO.

WOW! :woohoo::party: That is amazing and so touching. I had no idea there were 18! Thank you for that information. Just goes to show there are truly a lot of kind hearted people who actually do care about the victims in this case.
MOO

I doubt very much that SB will be in a position to step right up and help everyone in tragic circumstances by way of financial help or emotional help. Firstly I doubt there will be sufficient funds to help everyone to the extent that they need help and with SB having to make sure her time is well spent with her dear little daughter I don't expect she will have time to emotionally support all who are grieving in tragic circumstances. I would imagine her little daughter will be needing most of her time now...wouldn't you? She has kindly taking time out away from her daughter to assist with her fundraisers so I would expect that she now wants to devote her time and attention to her little girl from now on.

I don't think we can judge that people are feeling jealous and warped in regard to fundraisers...we do not know what has made them feel the way they do.... So maybe we should accept that not everyone sees things the way we do...and whoever is doing something really negative will as you say receive their just desserts by way of karma one way or another....

Yes 18 fundraisers all for SB and her little girl... I expect that as SB is so thoughtful and caring she will no doubt donate much of it to Tims Tribute to helps others less fortunate. I can see her doing that can't you. It is wonderful to see such benevolence stemming from such a tragedy.... It's quite inspiring to see the extent of the donations. MOO
 
  • #739
CURIOUS....everyone seems to talking about DM right to remain silent ...and yes he holds that right....

Why is there NO talking about MS who is doing the same thing...any answers.....?

There are no posts in ages about MS.....???I am kindly asking ....thanks if anyone replies robynhood....

So True....except I don't think there is really any new posts on the DM thread either, it has been the same information repeated over and over again for quite some time lately, as there is a PB until trial and no new information has been reported anywhere.

As far as on DM thread all I have been reading is alot of :deadhorse: and:pillowfight2:

Personally I am glad there are many different threads to sleuth on WS and will wait for this trial then come back and follow, unless we end up getting some breaking news in the meantime. :moo:
 
  • #740
... an incinerator was found on DM's property. To me it seems telling that they would haul it away if they found no evidence of it being used. Which also goes to the fact the Bobcat was hauled away also. Makes me consider maybe it was stolen property and LE seized it. Otherwise why bother to take it also.

Quick question: would forensics experts test the machinery onsite and then haul it away only if needed, or would it be taken away and then tested?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
129
Guests online
1,280
Total visitors
1,409

Forum statistics

Threads
632,447
Messages
18,626,715
Members
243,154
Latest member
findkillers
Back
Top