General Discussion and Theories #4

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  • #701
Why would CN enter a plea to being an accessory prior to DM's trial when there is a chance DM could ultimately be found NG of murder (in which case, charges against CN would be withdrawn as she could only be found NG of being an accessory to DM)? Maybe this is some of the legal wrangling in her case, getting her trial postponed until a verdict is reached in his case.

I keep thinking the same thing , the murder has to be proven before accessory to murder can be proven. I bet there are a lot of legal issues trying to decide the sequence of which trial goes first , second , third etc.
 
  • #702
As of yesterday, her and her defense could be working on considering a plea bargain from the Crown or trying to hash something out with the Crown...no?
MOO.

I somehow doubt it, but that is just my opinion. If the crown had believed she was of some use to them I think they would have offered an exceptional plea deal by now. Maybe they have - but she doesn't appear to have accepted, to date. JMHO
 
  • #703
Speculation on my part, but it appears the Crown has enough evidence to request and then be granted by the AG, allowing them to bypass the PH. HTH. Oh btw...it's a very rare move. ;) MOO.

Skipping the preliminary trial is a rare legal move in Ontario.

According to a Crown policy manual on the Ministry of the Attorney General's website, "this power is an extraordinary one and is used infrequently."

The final decision on proceeding directly to trial rests with the attorney general or the deputy attorney general.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-to-trial-in-death-of-laura-babcock-1.3225820

Included in this link is a video of the AG's statement. HTH.

Ravin Pillay, one of Millard’s lawyers, says that the Crown is proceeding by direct indictment in the case, a rare move that means there will be no preliminary inquiry.

Preliminary hearings are held to test evidence and determine whether there is enough to commit the case to trial.


http://www.citynews.ca/2014/07/16/millard-smich-proceeding-directly-to-trial-in-tim-bosma-death/

I think this has been addressed a few times before. DI is sometimes due to time restraints, not least related to Section 11b violations. They do have two people who have been sitting in jail (one in isolation) for what is going into their third year !!
 
  • #704
Perhaps the judge allowed CN bail so she could finish her studies on hers or her parent's own dime instead of taxpayers' dimes while she was in custody. Maybe the judge believed by releasing her, she would slip up and produce or lead LE to more evidence related to these cases.

I don't think a judge actually stretches that far to be thinking about her studies JMO. Why would they need more evidence? Surely they have all they need when two people have been in jail for going into three years ? no? If they need more evidence , maybe they need to rethink the evidence that they claim to have JMHO.

FYI just because she was/is living with her parents, does not mean they are liable to pay her legal fees. She was legally considered an adult as soon as she reached the age of 18, and is legally responsible for paying for her own defense. If she cannot afford her own defense, legal representation will be appointed to her. She may not have went to PH originally. He could be her court appointed lawyer, of course, unless by chance PH also does legal aid cases.

No, not imo, if she applies for legal aid because she cant afford it, they (legal aid) will ask how/who supports her her. If it is her parents they will be assessed. The system often doesn't make sense, but being an adult doesn't always mean your parents/family aren't liable for your costs...same with OSAP.

Yes...we could come up with a million and one excuses and opinions, but in the end, none of them will change the facts and evidence of the case no matter how hard one tries. All the victims in these cases deserve nothing but justice. Justice will come when the guilty are put away in a tiny prison cell for a long, long, time, if not the rest of their lives. HTH and MOO.

Victims do deserve justice. I happen to think they need justice by way of ensuring that the right people pay for it. To determine that, there needs to be a fair trial.

Also, BBM there is a difference between remaining silent and cooperating. The ultimate word TL used was cooperate. ;) JMO.

Not always. To LE offering up a statement that they can use would be cooperating. Silence doesn't. Again JMO
 
  • #705
In all provinces (except Alberta) it is compulsory that murder trials be before a jury (unless the accused and the Attorney General consent to judge alone):

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-240.html#docCont

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-239.html#docCont




Why would CN enter a plea to being an accessory prior to DM's trial when there is a chance DM could ultimately be found NG of murder (in which case, charges against CN would be withdrawn as she could only be found NG of being an accessory to DM)? Maybe this is some of the legal wrangling in her case, getting her trial postponed until a verdict is reached in his case.
Good point sillybilly. I keep thinking about how hard it would be to get all of the trials thru the system. There's the 3 Matthew gun trafficking trial, WM Murder-Preliminary, TB Murder Trial, CN Accessory Trial, LB Murder and if necessary the WM Murder trial.

I'm still surprised that CN is not being tried in with the TB Trial. Isn't it possible that if she's called as a witness at the TB trial that she may very well implicate herself in someway? Seems to me that the Crown may be limited to the questions that they will be able to ask her. MOO Strategically, I could see her having a separate trial if in fact she's agreed to co-operate as a witness in exchange for a much lighter sentence at her trial. CN may have woken up and smelled the coffee by now, realizing that she's better off to cut her ties with DM with the claim that she was young, immature and in awe of his money- that she was under his spell. IMO, CN may very well be DM's undoing. With a fresh Degree in her hands, I can't imagine CN willing to jeopardize her future by spending anytime in jail. IMHO, she's bargaining and she's bargaining hard.

That way she could very well enter a plea deal right after the TB trial, but the Crown simply may not be willing to entertain a deal until they have her testimony and a conviction on the TB case. MOO
 
  • #706
If if being young, immature and in awe of money were a valid legal excuse, everyone would get away with their crimes.
 
  • #707
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think the poster was suggesting it's a valid legal excuse, but that CN's defense team may try to portray her that way in hopes of it working to her benefit. You know, the same way some people hint that DM is being framed, or that he's some intelligent, philosophical, generous golden child instead of a disgusting human being who murdered three times.
 
  • #708
IMO CN wants to be tried by judge only because many judges typically do go lighter on sentencing then a jury.

<rsbm>

A jury never determines the sentencing in Canada. They merely determine a finding of guilty or not guilty. If found guilty, the accused appears before a judge at a later date to be sentenced.
 
  • #709
Good point sillybilly. I keep thinking about how hard it would be to get all of the trials thru the system. There's the 3 Matthew gun trafficking trial, WM Murder-Preliminary, TB Murder Trial, CN Accessory Trial, LB Murder and if necessary the WM Murder trial.

I'm still surprised that CN is not being tried in with the TB Trial. Isn't it possible that if she's called as a witness at the TB trial that she may very well implicate herself in someway? Seems to me that the Crown may be limited to the questions that they will be able to ask her. MOO Strategically, I could see her having a separate trial if in fact she's agreed to co-operate as a witness in exchange for a much lighter sentence at her trial. CN may have woken up and smelled the coffee by now, realizing that she's better off to cut her ties with DM with the claim that she was young, immature and in awe of his money- that she was under his spell. IMO, CN may very well be DM's undoing. With a fresh Degree in her hands, I can't imagine CN willing to jeopardize her future by spending anytime in jail. IMHO, she's bargaining and she's bargaining hard.

That way she could very well enter a plea deal right after the TB trial, but the Crown simply may not be willing to entertain a deal until they have her testimony and a conviction on the TB case. MOO

Why would CN be tried together with DM and MS in the TB trial? She isn't accused of being a part of the murder. Her charges relate to something she did in the days following the murder, not during the murder. Different charges, different date, different trial IMO.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protect her against incriminating herself.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects witnesses against self-incrimination. Section 13 of the Charter states: “A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.” The Supreme Court has described this protection as a quid pro quo: a witness is compelled to give evidence, even if that evidence may incriminate him or her, on the condition that the evidence will not be used to establish his or her guilt.

http://www.bennettjones.com/Publications/Updates/Avoiding_Self-Incrimination_in_Canada/

That wouldn't be much of a "deal" if she had to testify, with enough incriminating evidence to be acceptable to the Crown, before the Crown would agree to their side of the deal. Why bother if they aren't willing to offer you some guarantee in advance. JMO

How many murders would one's boyfriend need to be involved in before one was no longer "under his spell".

JMO
 
  • #710
Why would CN be tried together with DM and MS in the TB trial? She isn't accused of being a part of the murder. Her charges relate to something she did in the days following the murder, not during the murder. Different charges, different date, different trial IMO.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protect her against incriminating herself.



http://www.bennettjones.com/Publications/Updates/Avoiding_Self-Incrimination_in_Canada/

That wouldn't be much of a "deal" if she had to testify, with enough incriminating evidence to be acceptable to the Crown, before the Crown would agree to their side of the deal. Why bother if they aren't willing to offer you some guarantee in advance. JMO

How many murders would one's boyfriend need to be involved in before one was no longer "under his spell".

JMO
I think books like Lethal Marriage, Invisible Darkness & Deadly Innocence shed a bit of light on the fact that sometimes the only thing that "breaks the spell" is knowing that the perp is going to be out of commission for the rest of his life and the realization of the partner that there's an opening in the storm clouds. KH seemed to have woken up pretty fast, quickly tossing PB under the bus and I don't think looked back for long. IMHO, DM by all accounts was a good catch for many a young woman. I can understand how a young woman's family & friends may embrace such a wonderful find; independently wealthy, charming etc etc. IMO, parents may even promote such a relationship and overlook some less desirable characteristics severely delaying the "wake up" call. MOO
 
  • #711
Noudga was around and in DM's life during all three murders so I'd be shocked if she didn't know about what was going on. JMO
 
  • #712
As I previously mentioned, I caught the date of November 2nd, from Miranda A's CHCH news report last Friday night. I suspect it's CN's next court date to finalize a date for her trial or the start of her pretrial hearing. Perhaps Ann will be able to attend next Monday and give us a few details. MOO.

Ann Brocklehurst &#8207;@AnnB03 Oct 23
I missed the Christina Noudga court date in Hamilton today so don't know what happened
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Ann Brocklehurst &#8207;@AnnB03 Oct 23
Christina Noudga and/or her attorney were in court today to possibly set date for her accessory after fact trial re the Tim Bosma murder
 
  • #713
I think books like Lethal Marriage, Invisible Darkness & Deadly Innocence shed a bit of light on the fact that sometimes the only thing that "breaks the spell" is knowing that the perp is going to be out of commission for the rest of his life and the realization of the partner that there's an opening in the storm clouds. KH seemed to have woken up pretty fast, quickly tossing PB under the bus and I don't think looked back for long. IMHO, DM by all accounts was a good catch for many a young woman. I can understand how a young woman's family & friends may embrace such a wonderful find; independently wealthy, charming etc etc. IMO, parents may even promote such a relationship and overlook some less desirable characteristics severely delaying the "wake up" call. MOO

DM must have seemed to be an incredibly powerful person to CN - he had the money to make anything happen, right now. Perhaps CN believed that DM was even above the law, because he had "so much money".

By his own accounts, DM was feeling incredibly confident...until CN was arrested and he got really, really skinny.

I think DM's supporters give him more credit for his accomplishments than is due. His job title didn't match his actual level of participation, knowledge, skill, experience, aptitude. DM would have never been hired as an executive at any other MRO. It was a hollow accomplishment constructed for him by his dad from his dad's money. It was also DM's cover story: DM could introduce himself then as an aviation exec rather than a playboy, a layabout with deep pockets.

DM attended a lot of schools but never followed through with his programs. He scraped by and was even thrown out of a course for cheating. Yet we were introduced to him as a prep school kid, prepping for a university education that never happened. I think the people around DM are so used to creating a cover story for his non-ambition that it's become habit and they have come to believe in it.

DM hung out with really ordinary people because he himself was ordinary. Maybe this awakened an anger in him, because he felt that his money or pedigree should give him an extraordinary life? For some reason he harboured such rage or indifference to other humans that he killed three times.

I imagine MS connected with the circle of ordinary achievers because he was a regular kinda guy with quick access to drugs. Anyone with some money can buy drugs, but all the money in the world won't get you drugs NOW unless you have a good connection that knows more than a couple places to go. MS's been in the loop since high school. I think this is where MS fits in, just making a steady commission on drug sales to DM and hanging on in the fringes of DM's hangar circle. That circle and the rap circle are two different social networks on Facebook, and I think it was drugs and cars that made DM and MS make a connection and start a retail relationship.

If that was the kind of shallow relationship between DM and MS, you could see how if the truck hijacking did not go as planned, they would cut bait and each go their own ways. MS would have to do nothing but hide himself, but DM was left with a truck and a body and covering all of the tracks, and I think this was so troublesome to deal with that he asked CN to pitch in. That's why CN got involved, IMO: because there was stuff to do and MS had bailed on DM.

Now that would be a special event, that trust that DM laid in CN: it's always bros before h**s, women stay out of a lot of male criminal culture. To be invited in as a woman to participate in some male hijinks...wow, that's intense. Perhaps the secret of what DM had done was intoxicating to CN. She shared a little slice of the thrills of power and fear involved in criminal activity. She was hooked in her support for DM.

Perhaps with 20 years of wisdom under her belt and a deep secret that she could not share and discuss openly, CN believed that DM's money would prove all-powerful as it had in the past, and DM would get off, and they would get married, and she too would become a millionaire in reward fro her loyalty.

I think something changed her mind. Maybe it was her brief stay in jail as she awaited bail, or her arrest itself?
 
  • #714
Noudga was around and in DM's life during all three murders so I'd be shocked if she didn't know about what was going on. JMO

I agree Matou. I suspect there may be a few people in DM's circle who knew or had inklings what DM was up to. But because they did not participate and were not involved or it was hearsay, they cannot be held liable unfortunately. The fact LE mentioned early on they were looking into a group of friends, leads me to believe they had others who came forward supplying information. Hopefully if those "friends" knew anything, they have fully cooperated with LE, shared what they know and will help to seal the deal for the guilty. Perhaps LB may have been one of those who knew what DM was up to regarding WM, guns and drugs. JMO.

Police are looking into a small, &#8220;close-knit group of friends&#8221; that hung around together.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source
 
  • #715
I think books like Lethal Marriage, Invisible Darkness & Deadly Innocence shed a bit of light on the fact that sometimes the only thing that "breaks the spell" is knowing that the perp is going to be out of commission for the rest of his life and the realization of the partner that there's an opening in the storm clouds. KH seemed to have woken up pretty fast, quickly tossing PB under the bus and I don't think looked back for long. IMHO, DM by all accounts was a good catch for many a young woman. I can understand how a young woman's family & friends may embrace such a wonderful find; independently wealthy, charming etc etc. IMO, parents may even promote such a relationship and overlook some less desirable characteristics severely delaying the "wake up" call. MOO

That's not being "under the spell" of someone by my definition. It's more like enjoying the life until you get caught and then conveniently finding a way to get yourself out of the worst of it. Karla didn't suddenly wake up. She found an escape route and, thanks to the timing of it, it worked.

JMO
 
  • #716
<rsbm>

A jury never determines the sentencing in Canada. They merely determine a finding of guilty or not guilty. If found guilty, the accused appears before a judge at a later date to be sentenced.

Oops sorry, I do know that and thanks for pointing it out. IMO I meant judges do typically go lighter on handing down verdicts as opposed to a jury, where multiple charges can be chosen from. For example when there is a multitude of charges such as in MR's case, in which a jury can chose from: first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, sexual assault causing bodily harm, judges seem to chose the lighter sentence. One of MR's excuses for his appealed was because the Crown nor judge included accessory after the fact in the list of charges as an option for the jury to chose from.

As for CN charges, at this time, we are only aware of her charge of accessory after the fact/helping DM escape. Could it be she is facing other charges in which we are not privy to yet? I think it's a possibility, but we will just have to wait and see. Don't forget, the general public did not know until January 16, 2012, during the first day of MR's pretrial motions, he was also charged with sexual assault causing bodily harm. That was almost three years after the 🤬🤬🤬's original charges.
ALL MOO.

Rafferty also faces an additional charge of sexual assault causing bodily harm, reported Delaney. The charge, which is listed on Rafferty's indictment, was laid in June 2010.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/pre-trial-hearing-in-tori-stafford-murder-to-resume-tuesday-1.754448
 
  • #717
DM must have seemed to be an incredibly powerful person to CN - he had the money to make anything happen, right now. Perhaps CN believed that DM was even above the law, because he had "so much money".

By his own accounts, DM was feeling incredibly confident...until CN was arrested and he got really, really skinny.

I think DM's supporters give him more credit for his accomplishments than is due. His job title didn't match his actual level of participation, knowledge, skill, experience, aptitude. DM would have never been hired as an executive at any other MRO. It was a hollow accomplishment constructed for him by his dad from his dad's money. It was also DM's cover story: DM could introduce himself then as an aviation exec rather than a playboy, a layabout with deep pockets.

DM attended a lot of schools but never followed through with his programs. He scraped by and was even thrown out of a course for cheating. Yet we were introduced to him as a prep school kid, prepping for a university education that never happened. I think the people around DM are so used to creating a cover story for his non-ambition that it's become habit and they have come to believe in it.

DM hung out with really ordinary people because he himself was ordinary. Maybe this awakened an anger in him, because he felt that his money or pedigree should give him an extraordinary life? For some reason he harboured such rage or indifference to other humans that he killed three times.

I imagine MS connected with the circle of ordinary achievers because he was a regular kinda guy with quick access to drugs. Anyone with some money can buy drugs, but all the money in the world won't get you drugs NOW unless you have a good connection that knows more than a couple places to go. MS's been in the loop since high school. I think this is where MS fits in, just making a steady commission on drug sales to DM and hanging on in the fringes of DM's hangar circle. That circle and the rap circle are two different social networks on Facebook, and I think it was drugs and cars that made DM and MS make a connection and start a retail relationship.

If that was the kind of shallow relationship between DM and MS, you could see how if the truck hijacking did not go as planned, they would cut bait and each go their own ways. MS would have to do nothing but hide himself, but DM was left with a truck and a body and covering all of the tracks, and I think this was so troublesome to deal with that he asked CN to pitch in. That's why CN got involved, IMO: because there was stuff to do and MS had bailed on DM.

Now that would be a special event, that trust that DM laid in CN: it's always bros before h**s, women stay out of a lot of male criminal culture. To be invited in as a woman to participate in some male hijinks...wow, that's intense. Perhaps the secret of what DM had done was intoxicating to CN. She shared a little slice of the thrills of power and fear involved in criminal activity. She was hooked in her support for DM.

Perhaps with 20 years of wisdom under her belt and a deep secret that she could not share and discuss openly, CN believed that DM's money would prove all-powerful as it had in the past, and DM would get off, and they would get married, and she too would become a millionaire in reward fro her loyalty.

I think something changed her mind. Maybe it was her brief stay in jail as she awaited bail, or her arrest itself?

I don't know what DM's supporters say about him. I haven't seen too many of those interviews, if they happened, and I don't know any of the people involved. But it's not unusual for an only child to become an executive of a private family company, regardless of education and whether it is in name only or otherwise. From what I've seen, not all of his friends are what I would call ordinary achievers. There seems to have been a mix of different types of people.

Maybe you were introduced to DM as a prep school kid preparing for university, but I was introduced to him (not personally) much earlier as a 14 year old who broke a flying record. What cover story are the people around him creating for his "non-ambition"? Do you have a link? Or are you simply referring to what his at the time lawyer said about him, because how does that reflect anything that the people around him might be saying?

It's not always bros before h**s in every circle. Women have been involved in illegal dealings with their partners for years. They just seem to be able to conjure up more sympathies from a lot of the general public and are, therefore, able to play the "poor me" role and be treated more leniently.

All JMO.
 
  • #718
Noudga was around and in DM's life during all three murders so I'd be shocked if she didn't know about what was going on. JMO

If this all happened as it is alleged to have happened, I tend to agree. JMO
 
  • #719
Why would CN be tried together with DM and MS in the TB trial? She isn't accused of being a part of the murder. Her charges relate to something she did in the days following the murder, not during the murder. Different charges, different date, different trial IMO.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protect her against incriminating herself.



http://www.bennettjones.com/Publications/Updates/Avoiding_Self-Incrimination_in_Canada/

That wouldn't be much of a "deal" if she had to testify, with enough incriminating evidence to be acceptable to the Crown, before the Crown would agree to their side of the deal. Why bother if they aren't willing to offer you some guarantee in advance. JMO

How many murders would one's boyfriend need to be involved in before one was no longer "under his spell".

JMO

BBM

I would have hoped that the answer to this would have been only one and she would have run straight to the nearest police department to share what she knew. But we know now that is not what she did. She ran straight to the nearest attorney and kept her mouth tightly shut for a year. To me that reaks of still being under his spell. JMO
 
  • #720
BBM

I would have hoped that the answer to this would have been only one and she would have run straight to the nearest police department to share what she knew. But we know now that is not what she did. She ran straight to the nearest attorney and kept her mouth tightly shut for a year. To me that reaks of still being under his spell. JMO

We have no way of knowing her reasons for anything at this point. There may be good reason for getting a lawyer and for maintaining her right to stay silent. If she truly believes he is innocent why would she do otherwise? A lawyer would have told her not to go to the police either way IMHO
 
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