General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

Oscar Pistorius forced out of hiding for trial hearing

Difficult defence for Pistorius, experts say

The Olympian is claiming "putative self-defence," lawyers who are knowledgeable about the case but are not representing Pistorius said.

It's a difficult defence for any accused, legal experts say.

'I do not see how Oscar Pistorius could have concluded that a closed door constitutes danger to such an extent that his life is in danger...'
—Martin Hood, firearm lawyer

"The fact that he has admitted that he has killed her by pulling the trigger means the state has a prima facie case and it is expected of the accused to come and convince the court otherwise," Marius du Toit, a former prosecutor, magistrate and now defence attorney with over 20 years' experience in South Africa's justice system said. "His version is going to be exposed and scrutinized in the finest, finest detail."

Even with the principle of innocent until proven guilty, for any defendant in Pistorius' circumstances, "it's on you to come and show to the court that what [you] did was not so unreasonable," Du Toit said.

Putative self-defence is "extremely difficult" to show, said leading firearm lawyer Martin Hood, predicting an "uphill battle" for Pistorius at trial.

"I do not see how Oscar Pistorius could have concluded that a closed door constitutes danger to such an extent that his life is in danger, bearing in mind that he had gone into that situation," Hood said. "So, it begs the question why did he go looking for trouble?"

Why didn't he check where Steenkamp was, or just leave the room and the perceived danger? Simply, "what he should have done is … got out the bedroom," Hood said.

Pistorius' character and his actions around guns could become circumstantial evidence, Hood said, with unconfirmed reports of moments of aggression and a careless attitude with firearms.

Yet, the prosecution's decision to press a premeditated murder charge, because they say Pistorius took the time to put on his prosthetic legs before the shooting, is flawed, Du Toit said.

"I honestly felt there wasn't any justification for (a) premeditated murder (charge)," Du Toit said, "unless something came out in their forensics that we don't know of. And we won't know until trial."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/06/03/oscar-pistorius-court-hearing.html

 

[kittychi]

Interesting image from the Daily Mail article:

Caption: "Investigation: Ballistics expert, JC de Klerk, fires at a door, simulating Pistorius' height, had he not put on his prosthetic legs in the documentary"

 

[Estelle]

Oscar Pistorius case: The key questions

It will be a brief affair - perhaps just a few minutes - as the prosecution asks the magistrate for more time to complete its investigations.

And it will not be the last postponement granted in a murder case that is unlikely to come to a full trial until early next year.

Various people have tried to suggest that the position of the bullet holes in the door helps one side or other's case. My sense is that they mean nothing on their own.

Once the prosecution have concluded, they will reveal their evidence to the defence team, which will then almost certainly request more time for its experts to examine and challenge the prosecution's conclusions.

Key questions (paraphrased)

1. How close was Mr Pistorius to the toilet door when he shot through it, killing his girlfriend Ms Steenkamp?

The prosecution have already suggested - based on a preliminary analysis of the scene - that he was just 1.5 metres (4ft 11in) away, which would support their claim of premeditated murder, since at that distance the athlete would have ventured well into the bathroom and, one might conclude, could have known who was behind the door.

The defence maintains he was further back, cowering nervously at the entrance to the room, convinced a burglar (or burglars) was in his house.

2. What was the vertical angle of the shot?

From this, the court will learn whether Mr Pistorius was on the stumps of his amputated legs, as he maintains, or wearing his "blades" as the prosecution has argued.

This is crucial. If it is proved that Mr Pistorius was lying in his opening statement, he will be in serious trouble - and the fact that he had time to put on his artificial legs will strongly support the notion of premeditated murder.

But if the forensics back Mr Pistorius up, then they will reinforce his story of a vulnerable man, unable to move quickly on his stumps, and anxious to protect himself and his girlfriend from suspected intruders.

3. Error of judgement?

Beyond those concrete questions, we start moving towards more circumstantial evidence

• phone records which might, or might not, help to indicate an argument between the couple;
  
• the recollections of witnesses at the estate, who have reported hearing shouting; and
  
• character witnesses who may be brought in to try to prove that Mr Pistorius was a reckless, aggressive character, prone to sudden bursts of anger.

4. What evidence does the prosecution have which pushed them towards the charge of pre-meditated murder?

• Was it simply a tactic - to compel the defence to reveal their case in order to keep Mr Pistorius out on bail?
  
• Do the prosecution have an ace up their sleeve?
  
• Or were other factors at play?

You could argue that the state already had a confession, a victim and a killer.

Mr Pistorius himself is certain to take the stand.

• OP's performance,
  
• forensic evidence
  
• evidence of those first at the scene will be crucial;
  
• the character witnesses less so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22721322

 

[Estelle]

The Paralympic sprinter returns to court – with another blonde beauty in his corner.

In a shock new twist, insiders now claim Oscar Pistorius was seeing a stunning blonde, Erin Stear, at the same time he shot girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp. Just days before Oscar’s latest court hearing, police quizzed party girl Erin, 25, about her relationship with the murder-accused.

Witnesses claim the pair met a number of times earlier this year, and regularly exchanged flirty text messages. The South African sprinter, 26, is on bail for the Valentine’s Day murder of 29-year-old model Reeva, whom he claims to have mistaken for an intruder when he shot her in his home.

While Erin denies having an affair with the world’s most famous double-amputee, Oscar was reportedly meeting up with the fashionista and socialite behind his girlfriend’s back. “Erin met Oscar when Reeva was his girlfriend,” a source tells a UK newspaper. “They hit it off and met up again after messaging each other. She was really excited about getting to know him.”

http://womansday.ninemsn.com.au/truelifestories/8667875/oscar-pistorius-had-another-woman

How will OP be able to claim his love for Reeva (as he did at the bail hearing) at trial now that it has become known that OP was meeting up with Erin behind Reeva's back?

 

[whiterum]

Interesting image from the Daily Mail article:

Caption: "Investigation: Ballistics expert, JC de Klerk, fires at a door, simulating Pistorius' height, had he not put on his prosthetic legs in the documentary"

Couldn't OP have squatted for steadiness on his prosthetics before firing making him lower. You would think the kick- back from firing four shots on his stumps would have knocked him on his back.

 

[Estelle]

"He's battling. But with the family behind him, his sister living in the same house as he lives, Aimee, they assist him a lot," Arnold Pistorius said

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...ng/story-e6frfkp9-1226656015157#ixzz2V9j1ptoy

Does this same house that OP and Aimee are living at, belong to Uncle Arnold or is it a different house?

 

[whiterum]

I wonder if everything pictured in that crime scene video are in the position found after the killing.

If so, if OP as he claimed got up to bring that large headed electric fan pictured in the crime scene video, with the tripod legs and carried it in from the balcony on his stumps over to that chest of drawers pictured beside it. Then he would obviously walk back to close the doors , blinds and curtains after he came in from the balcony, so he would clearly see then that Reeva was not in bed as doors, blinds curtains would still be open.

Surely anyone with sense would position it first before closing curtains and attempt to carry that thing in the supposed pitch darkness on his stumps across the room.

 

[Estelle]

The eNews Channel Africa reported that prosecutors have drawn up a list of 27 potential witnesses including rugby player Francois Hougaard – a friend of Pistorius rumoured to have briefly dated Steenkamp – and Pistorius's ex-girlfriend Samantha Taylor who accused him of being unfaithful.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/02/oscar-pistorius-church-aunt

So who could be on this potential witness list for the prosecution?

1. Francois Hougaard
2. Samantha Taylor
3. Warren Lahoud
4. Gina Myers
5. Cecil Myers
6. Mark Batchelor

Who else? 12 neighbours who heard the arguing?

 

[Estelle]

I wonder if everything pictured in that crime scene video are in the position found after the killing.

If so, if OP as he claimed got up to bring that large headed electric fan pictured in the crime scene video, with the tripod legs and carried it in from the balcony on his stumps over to that chest of drawers pictured beside it. Then he would obviously walk back to close the doors, blinds and curtains after he came in from the balcony, so he would clearly see then that Reeva was not in bed as doors, blinds curtains would still be open.

Surely anyone with sense would position it first before closing curtains and attempt to carry that thing in the supposed pitch darkness on his stumps across the room.

Yes, of course they would, whiterum. I would actually like to see a re-enactment of this by OP himself on stumps to see how he managed it.

 

[whiterum]

"He's battling. But with the family behind him, his sister living in the same house as he lives, Aimee, they assist him a lot," Arnold Pistorius said

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...ng/story-e6frfkp9-1226656015157#ixzz2V9j1ptoy

Does this same house that OP and Aimee are living at, belong to Uncle Arnold or is it a different house?

Poor soul, he battled to save Reeva after he shot her and he's been battling to cope since. He was battling when he was out drinking and clubbing but bravely in the face of adversity, he will stand in court like a man, bearded with stiff upper lip and all that :tears:

 

[whiterum]

FROM CH 5 doc video
June S. speaks on the shooting

Reeva Steenkamp's parents speak of their grief - YouTube

Her mother said 'and already one bullet had hit her so she must have been in severe pain also' ? Maybe she meant from the first shot she must have been in severe pain. Poor Reeva, what a horrible way to die and her poor parents will be agonising over the manner of her death for the rest of their lives.

 

[kittychi]

Her mother said 'and already one bullet had hit her so she must have been in severe pain also' ? Maybe she meant from the first shot she must have been in severe pain. Poor Reeva, what a horrible way to die and her poor parents will be agonising over the manner of her death for the rest of their lives.

BBM
That makes me wonder if the Steenkamps have more information than we do, i.e. about an initial first shot before she ran into the loo? Would police share more detail with the victim's family before a trial, as long as they don't spill it to the media and compromise the trial? I hope the Steenkamps do know more than we do.

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM
That makes me wonder if the Steenkamps have more information than we do, i.e. about an initial first shot before she ran into the loo? Would police share more detail with the victim's family before a trial, as long as they don't spill it to the media and compromise the trial? I hope the Steenkamps do know more than we do.

Watching the first of the C5 programmes and both her parents had nothing but good things to say about Warren Lehoud. Barry Steenkamp broke down a few times talking about Reeva. It's clear to see how much her brutal end has affected them.

EDIT: The comments about Reeva and OP fighting a LOT (so early on in the relationship) is very concerning. I wonder why she didn't tell her mother what the fights were about? Was she embarrassed to admit he was abusive but she was choosing to stay with him anyway? Barry Steekamp just broke down again when he mentioned the first pictures that were released after the murder showing where she might have been sitting in the toilet. He pointed to the painting she drew of herself in the foetal position and cried. I don't imagine OP will be moved by any of this, but might be concerned about being portrayed in a negative light when we all know he's a bible-bashing church-going God-loving angel of mercy... not.

 

[shane13]

here it is folks

Interview with Reeva Steenkamps parents - YouTube

 

[Carol70]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Oscar-Pistorius-in-court-20130604
Live updates:
OP in court!

 

[shane13]

August 19 it is.

 

[katydid23]

Zeepolar says...
here it goes. it will be postponed 5 more times and then he will walk. *yawn* justice delayed is justice denied. RIP Reeeva.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Zeepolar says...
here it goes. it will be postponed 5 more times and then he will walk. *yawn* justice delayed is justice denied. RIP Reeeva.

I fear the same. I think the defense will rely on "procedural errors" (or whatever they call it).

- They discredited Botha from the beginning. They say he is the one who contaminated the crime scene, he made false statements on the witness stand, he is the one who leaked the crime scene photos....

- Both judges confirmed in the bail hearings, prosecutors and Botha didn't a good job.

Bail restrictions that were eased (Pistorius did not represent a flight risk and was not likely to interfere with state witnesses :floorlaugh. Judge Bert Bam said the restrictions were unfair and unwarranted.

- Weeks ago we heard police had taken photos of the scene with their mobile phones and 49 phones were confiscated - and calculated a few days before today's court date these photos were published.

- And today:
Magistrate Daniel Thulare expressed concern at the media coverage of the case and warned that some of it could be in contempt of court.

This may scandalise the court processes and the administration of justice, Thulare says. The defence says it shares the magistrate's concern.

For me: It will be the judge NOT the media who decides whether OP is guilty or not.

But what if the DEFENSE organized a leak of materials in order to poison the case? And maybe they hope that by postponement the trial they are able to find even more "procedural errors". So the defence is playing with time and this could be the reason they agreed the postponement without any contradiction.

And in the end OP will go free.....

As always, just my guess and my opinion

 

[Estelle]

I fear the same. I think the defense will rely on "procedural errors" (or whatever they call it).

- They discredited Botha from the beginning. They say he is the one who contaminated the crime scene, he made false statements on the witness stand, he is the one who leaked the crime scene photos....

- Both judges confirmed in the bail hearings, prosecutors and Botha didn't a good job.

Bail restrictions that were eased (Pistorius did not represent a flight risk and was not likely to interfere with state witnesses :floorlaugh. Judge Bert Bam said the restrictions were unfair and unwarranted.

- Weeks ago we heard police had taken photos of the scene with their mobile phones and 49 phones were confiscated - and calculated a few days before today's court date these photos were published.

- And today:
Magistrate Daniel Thulare expressed concern at the media coverage of the case and warned that some of it could be in contempt of court.

This may scandalise the court processes and the administration of justice, Thulare says. The defence says it shares the magistrate's concern.

By me: It will be the judge NOT the media who decides whether OP is guilty or not.

But what if the DEFENSE organized a leak of materials in order to poison the case? And maybe they hope that by postponement the trial they are able to find even more "procedural errors". So the defence is playing with time and this could be the reason they agreed the postponement without any contradiction.

And in the end OP will go free.....

As always, just my guess and my opinion

BBM: From even the first minutes after Reeva's death, it has appeared to me that OP's team had been told that the only way they can win this case is by discrediting the police and prosecution in every way they can.

So IMO they have looked at every avenue to do that using the media. I suspect that OP and his team had already contaminated the crime scene themselves by not wearing booties. So they could have approached Botha and bribed him to agree that he did it. I suspect that OP's watch is not missing and it is a fabricated story. I suspect that they bribed someone to take these photos and "leak" them to the press.

I am so suspicious of the behaviour of the defence in this regard that when one of you first described the man in the reflection, saying he had white hair and glasses, I even suspected that he could have been Henke Pistorius!

I would not put it past any of OP's family and friends to do whatever it would take to keep OP out of prison. :jail:

 

[Carol70]

August 19 it is.

Co-incidentally- Reeva's birthday!

Commentators are up in arms at the insensitivity of it however, I don't think it was intentional!