General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[mickey2942]

RSBM and BBM

People will generally have a number of different reasons for living in a particular state (family, employment, spouse's employment...). Suggesting or even expecting people to move to a different state because they don't like the gun laws in the state they currently live in (also possibly a state their family has lived in for generations!) is something that with all due respect I cannot fathom. When people decide voluntarily to move to a state that follows their belief system, that's one thing, and it undoubtedly happens, and not just with respect to gun laws either, but suggesting people leave if they don't like it can be used to stifle any debate, any progress, any change.

MOO JMO

Agreed. That is just an echo of the abortion debate. The answer was move.

 

[10ofRods]

This. Government should be able to manage this. Why not tackle this issue before gun legislation, which I still believe is a "states rights" issue.

Seriously, states like Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, Alaska, people own multiple guns in their homes, and when was the last time there was a mass shooting or school shooting in those states?

You can google mass shootings for each state. Montana has had 3 over the 4 year period 2015-2019. The population in 2019 was around 880,000. Wyoming had only 1 during that same period (but only 550,000 people, so..)

It's definitely a more pronounced problem in the more urban areas of the more urban states. Alaska's homicide rate is just about at the national average (nothing to brag about if one is from, say, Japan).

Alaska had one of the earlier school shootings (1997):

1997 Bethel Regional High School shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That was before Columbine.

North Dakota certainly "wins" in terms of zero mass shootings (but its death by gun homicide is above the national average by just a little).

Overall deaths by guns in Alaska are among the highest rates in the US.

IMO.

 

[mickey2942]

You can google mass shootings for each state. Montana has had 3 over the 4 year period 2015-2019. The population in 2019 was around 880,000. Wyoming had only 1 during that same period (but only 550,000 people, so..)

It's definitely a more pronounced problem in the more urban areas of the more urban states. Alaska's homicide rate is just about at the national average (nothing to brag about if one is from, say, Japan).

Alaska had one of the earlier school shootings (1997):

1997 Bethel Regional High School shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That was before Columbine.

North Dakota certainly "wins" in terms of zero mass shootings (but its death by gun homicide is above the national average by just a little).

View attachment 412792

Overall deaths by guns in Alaska are among the highest rates in the US.

IMO.

I focused on mass shootings only. Suicide rate is a completely separate issue, and far more complicated than gun control.

 

[MyBelle]

This is a "states rights" issue. The right to bear arms is protected by the Constitution, and this right has been eroded by many local laws. If people are against guns, they should live in a state that follows their belief system.

It is a slippery slope to place limits on gun ownership based on mental health diagnosis. This type of "red flag" would end up on NCIC database, and could potentially be a barrier for many other things, aside from guns. Even years later.

Why would it be a slippery slope? The focus should be on public safety. There are already mandated reporters to report suspicions of child abuse. <modsnip: No link to support information stated as fact> A mental health professional should be a mandated reporter about a mentally ill patient owning guns.

 

[Eli9]

Why would it be a slippery slope? The focus should be on public safety. There are already mandated reporters to report suspicions of child abuse. <modsnip: No link to support information stated as fact> A mental health professional should be a mandated reporter about a mentally ill patient owning guns.

I would worry about improper reporting and those who would control the process.

 

[mickey2942]

Why would it be a slippery slope? The focus should be on public safety. There are already mandated reporters to report suspicions of child abuse. <modsnip: No link to support information stated as fact> A mental health professional should be a mandated reporter about a mentally ill patient owning guns.

If this ends up on NCIC database, it may be there forever. And, things are often put there, such as flags for border patrol and TSA, that you, don't even know about. So, if anyone does a background check, for anything, something put there 10 years ago, may still be there.

National Crime Information Center (NCIC) - FBI Information Systems

 

[MyBelle]

I would worry about improper reporting and those who would control the process.

States that have Red Flag laws carefully control the process. A judge would hold a hearing and the impaired would have to prove they aren't a threat to themselves or others.

 

[Eli9]

States that have Red Flag laws carefully control the process. A judge would hold a hearing and the impaired would have to prove they aren't a threat to themselves or others.

Like proving innocence? That isn't how the justice system is supposed to work. Say I'm your co-worker and have a grudge against you because of lots of reasons and you own a gun. If I make a red flag complaint about you you're going to have to get a lawyer, and a good one, to prove your innocence. Um no.
I'm all for good decent reporting but I don't know how that gets done fairly. Enlighten me.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think those with mental instability should not have such easy access to purchasing semi-automatic weapons. Medical Examiners have commented on the massive destruction the high-velocity guns have on childrens' bodies.

As a medical expert, it's my opinion that no one should have easy access to purchasing semi-automatic weapons.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

That's so true but I support making it much harder for them to obtain them legally. I also support red flag laws.

Personally, I fear the sane with a semi-automatic weapon as much as the mentally ill. In many cases, I fear the sane more because they have the organization and executive function to do what they want. Red flag laws are one of those feel good things politicians want to pass in order to say they're working on gun safety. IMO, they're pointless since anyone with a mental illness can either skirt diagnosis or lie.

 

[Eli9]

States that have Red Flag laws carefully control the process. A judge would hold a hearing and the impaired would have to prove they aren't a threat to themselves or others.

Quoting you twice. Maybe something along the lines of mandated reporting aka CPS. I mean they don't have the best reputation but there are very valid reasons for their existence. It's a twisty road. JMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Those who self-medicate have families who should be concerned enough to force mental evaluations. Good grief! Many states have Drivers License Bureaus who will step in if families believe an elder relative is suffering from dementia and shouldn't be driving. This isn't rocket science <modsnip: Politicizing>

You can't force mental evaluations except under very, very narrow circumstances (and even then, not in some states). But also, 99% of people who are mentally ill are more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators of crime, so we're going to strip them of their Constitutional right so that everyone else can enjoy their guns if we follow that plan. I think that's a very bad idea. Also, where do you draw the line? If someone has anxiety or if they had postpartum depression or if they have OCD or if they're an abuse survivor with PTSD (for that matter, how about our veterans, most of whom have PTSD), they can't have a gun? Targeting the mentally ill isn't the answer, IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I wouldn't suggest relying on a mental health approach so much as that being one out of several different approaches.

Another one that gets me is the ease with which some children in the USA access guns, usually family guns afaik e.g. the Grade 1 student who shot his teacher. And wasn't there recently a 3yo who shot a 4yo sibling? MOO How does that happen? Aren't there laws about guns and ammo having to be locked away. I don't know if more legislation is needed or more enforcing of it? So that would be one of the additional approaches.

Yes, a societal change in thinking is undoubtedly needed. I can't be part of it because I'm not American and don't live in the US.

Some parents are teaching their kids to shoot or pose with guns, IMO. Heck, some of our politicians are doing the same.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

DeSantis' signature makes Florida 26th state to pass permitless carry law

The law will go into effect on July 1.

www.baynews9.com

APR. 03, 2023
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — During a private ceremony in his office, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Monday signed legislation allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

Per the bill, starting on July 1, Floridians will no longer need to fulfill license or concealed training classes to carry a concealed weapon.
[...]

I sometimes think we've become so desensitized to the fight that we're willing to throw out the baby with the bath water. It seems to me that the pro-gun side should want stricter laws to prove that guns are not dangerous in the hands of law-abiding citizens, not lax laws that blur the lines between the dangerous and the non-dangerous.

MOO.

 

[Eli9]

Why would it be a slippery slope? The focus should be on public safety. There are already mandated reporters to report suspicions of child abuse. <modsnip: No link to support information stated as fact> A mental health professional should be a mandated reporter about a mentally ill patient owning guns.

Oh man the can of worms that would open up! No one would seek mental health or even physical health if they thought their deepest emotions or medical conditions would be reported on. Deviance's, anger, rage, childhood trauma, workplace grievances, PTSD, dementia, loss of eyesight, their gender dysphoria, anxiety, you name the diagnosis. Not for this option at all!

 

[MyBelle]

Personally, I fear the sane with a semi-automatic weapon as much as the mentally ill. In many cases, I fear the sane more because they have the organization and executive function to do what they want. Red flag laws are one of those feel good things politicians want to pass in order to say they're working on gun safety. IMO, they're pointless since anyone with a mental illness can either skirt diagnosis or lie.

I have no idea why politicians won't re-invoke the ban on semi-automatic weapons. The point of state gun laws is to protect public safety.

Father of Alleged Highland Park Shooter Arrested After Prosecutors File Felony Reckless Conduct Charges

content.govdelivery.com

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Having seen what political differences can do to families, I can easily see a scenario in which a family member is essentially gaslighted in order to confiscate guns.

Finally, at a time when the attention nationally is on destigmatization, this plan would only stigmatize mental illness much more and leave the door wide open for abuse without doing anything to curb gun violence.

MOO

 

[MyBelle]

You can't force mental evaluations except under very, very narrow circumstances (and even then, not in some states). But also, 99% of people who are mentally ill are more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators of crime, so we're going to strip them of their Constitutional right so that everyone else can enjoy their guns if we follow that plan. I think that's a very bad idea. Also, where do you draw the line? If someone has anxiety or if they had postpartum depression or if they have OCD or if they're an abuse survivor with PTSD (for that matter, how about our veterans, most of whom have PTSD), they can't have a gun? Targeting the mentally ill isn't the answer, IMO.

Red Flag laws are a valuable tool to help law enforcement get guns out of the hands of unstable people before they commit an act of violence. If Tennessee had such a law, the school shooting may not have happened. Instead, the Police Chief said she wasn't even on their radar.

What are ‘red flag’ laws and how can they prevent gun violence?

Psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst explains how red flag laws work and how ordinary people can utilize them if they are concerned someone is at risk of harming themselves and others with a gun.

health.ucdavis.edu

 

[Eli9]

Red Flag laws are a valuable tool to help law enforcement get guns out of the hands of unstable people before they commit an act of violence. If Tennessee had such a law, the school shooting may not have happened. Instead, the Police Chief said she wasn't even on their radar.

What are ‘red flag’ laws and how can they prevent gun violence?

Psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst explains how red flag laws work and how ordinary people can utilize them if they are concerned someone is at risk of harming themselves and others with a gun.

health.ucdavis.edu

She wasn't on their radar as her parents weren't aware she had multiple firearms. When they were aware she did have a firearm she was told to get rid of it and they thought she did. I'm not even sure we are supposed to be discussing other specific cases but red flag laws can be open to abuse by those that issue the flag whether it be the person reporting or the committee responding.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Red Flag laws are a valuable tool to help law enforcement get guns out of the hands of unstable people before they commit an act of violence. If Tennessee had such a law, the school shooting may not have happened. Instead, the Police Chief said she wasn't even on their radar.

What are ‘red flag’ laws and how can they prevent gun violence?

Psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst explains how red flag laws work and how ordinary people can utilize them if they are concerned someone is at risk of harming themselves and others with a gun.

health.ucdavis.edu

Except most mass shootings are not the result of the severely mentally ill.

"However, a Columbia University research study found that of the 1,800 mass murders, only 8% of all mass shooters were diagnosed with a severe mental illness, such as schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder."

A look into the traits of a mass shooter

Researchers have identified four traits shared by most mass shooters and discussed how often they have a diagnosed mental illness.

www.cbsnews.com

New Findings from the Columbia Mass Murder Database

Data from Columbia Mass Murder Database reveal psychosis and other serious psychiatric illness absent in the majority of perpetrators.

www.columbiapsychiatry.org

Most Mass Shooters are Terrorists, Not Mentally Ill

The misperception of gunmen as “crazy” is damaging. Here’s why.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

People have latched on to mental illness without actually understanding it.

I may have missed it as I haven't kept up with the news on the TN shooter. Can you please provide a link that the shooter was mentally ill? I know the parents said she had an "emotional" problem, but that doesn't mean mentally ill.