General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[PrairieWind]

Gun shows have no regulations in most states. They don’t have to check IDs for age or do background checks. In most states it’s the same for gun sales at flea markets.

The regulations that exist in most states are poor quality public policy.

As a reminder, many states are continu to chip away at the few federal regulations governing gun sales, use and ownership. SCOTUS recently ruled against a Missouri law that forbids local LE from enforcing federal gun laws. JMO it will be a temporary setback. Very scary.

Supreme Court refuses to reinstate Missouri Second Amendment law - SCOTUSblog

The Supreme Court on Friday refused a request by Missouri to reinstate a state law that bars police officers from enforcing federal restrictions on the sale and ownership of firearms that the state believes violate the Second Amendment. A federal judge ruled earlier this year that the state law is i

www.scotusblog.com

None of that is true. Federal laws apply at all gun shows. I have been to many, many guns shows. Almost all of the vendors are licensed firearm dealers, they have FFLs. Generally no non-compliance sales are allowed at a gun show. And this is standard. Are private sales occurring in the parking lot? Maybe. But that is pretty much the same as any person to person sale. Buyer and seller beware. Even many private sellers require a background check (even though not required). In the Missouri case, the Supreme Court just denied staying the lower court ruling while the case proceeds.
Misrepresenting the law and what is occurring doesn't help us find solutions to our problems.

 

[Betty P]

None of that is true. Federal laws apply at all gun shows. I have been to many, many guns shows. Almost all of the vendors are licensed firearm dealers, they have FFLs. Generally no non-compliance sales are allowed at a gun show. And this is standard. Are private sales occurring in the parking lot? Maybe. But that is pretty much the same as any person to person sale. Buyer and seller beware. Even many private sellers require a background check (even though not required). In the Missouri case, the Supreme Court just denied staying the lower court ruling while the case proceeds.
Misrepresenting the law and what is occurring doesn't help us find solutions to our problems.

I understand about the federal license requirement. I was referring to background checks. I should have been more specific, my bad. It's my understanding that most states don't require background checks at gun shows. As you say, its the same with person to person sales. Also flea markets, etc. We heard about some of those kinds of transactions in the trial of George Wagner IV.

At the next level, we have to question the problems with the current system of background checks.

Permanent Brady State Lists | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

States/Territories in which the FBI Conducts NICS Checks for All Firearms Transactions Alabama Alaska American Samoa Arizona Arkansas Delaware D.C. Georgia Guam Idaho Indiana Indiana Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana New Mexico North...

www.atf.gov

 

[PrairieWind]

I understand about the federal license requirement. I was referring to background checks. I should have been more specific, my bad. It's my understanding that most states don't require background checks at gun shows. As you say, its the same with person to person sales. Also flea markets, etc. We heard about some of those kinds of transactions in the trial of George Wagner IV.

At the next level, we have to question the problems with the current system of background checks.

Permanent Brady State Lists | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

States/Territories in which the FBI Conducts NICS Checks for All Firearms Transactions Alabama Alaska American Samoa Arizona Arkansas Delaware D.C. Georgia Guam Idaho Indiana Indiana Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana New Mexico North...

www.atf.gov

Even at a gun show, a FFL holder/vendor, can't sell a firearm without a background check. It is federal law. Most states don't have additional laws because they just arent needed. The federal law is in place. Buying from a vendor at a gun show (an FFL vendor, and I really don't see any other at gun shows I go to) isn't any different then walking into a brick and mortar gun store. There is no "Gun show loophole." Private sales do not in fact require a background check. I know several people that routinely buy and sell privately and background checks are routine there. They do not occur with criminals.
I agree that the background check system is flawed. Reporting is flawed, as when it was revealed the DOD had huge gaps in reporting to the system. What gets reported needs to be clarified, as does errors in the system. And then when people are caught, they need to be prosecuted. But there seems to be no focus on this.

 

[MyBelle]

Even at a gun show, a FFL holder/vendor, can't sell a firearm without a background check. It is federal law. Most states don't have additional laws because they just arent needed. The federal law is in place. Buying from a vendor at a gun show (an FFL vendor, and I really don't see any other at gun shows I go to) isn't any different then walking into a brick and mortar gun store. There is no "Gun show loophole." Private sales do not in fact require a background check. I know several people that routinely buy and sell privately and background checks are routine there. They do not occur with criminals.
I agree that the background check system is flawed. Reporting is flawed, as when it was revealed the DOD had huge gaps in reporting to the system. What gets reported needs to be clarified, as does errors in the system. And then when people are caught, they need to be prosecuted. But there seems to be no focus on this.

BBM. There is focus on this. Congress and the Biden administration are trying to close the gun show loophole.
JMO

Justice Department moves to close "gun show loophole"

If approved, the proposed rule would expand background check requirements to cover more sellers.

www.cbsnews.com

The Justice Department announced Thursday it has started a process to expand the definition of a firearm dealer and make it clear that sellers at gun shows and flea markets and who sell through the mail are required to obtain specific approvals and run background checks before selling guns.

The Justice Department announced the submission of a proposed federal rule that will still have to undergo a public comment submission period as a part of the approval process. It's a move the administration is making to close the so-called "gun show loophole," and ensure that gun sales entail background checks. If approved, the proposed rule would affect how guns are sold under federal law, and expand background check requirements to cover more sellers.

Last year, Congress passed the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which directed the Justice Department and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to look at federal rule definitions for firearms. This process is the result.

 

[Laughing]

Hunter Biden's loophole may be closed:

Hunter Biden indicted on federal gun charges

The president's son was indicted after a plea agreement on tax and gun charges fell apart in July and as House Republicans investigate his finances.

www.nbcnews.com

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Betty P]

BBM. There is focus on this. Congress and the Biden administration are trying to close the gun show loophole.
JMO

Justice Department moves to close "gun show loophole"

If approved, the proposed rule would expand background check requirements to cover more sellers.

www.cbsnews.com

The Justice Department announced Thursday it has started a process to expand the definition of a firearm dealer and make it clear that sellers at gun shows and flea markets and who sell through the mail are required to obtain specific approvals and run background checks before selling guns.

The Justice Department announced the submission of a proposed federal rule that will still have to undergo a public comment submission period as a part of the approval process. It's a move the administration is making to close the so-called "gun show loophole," and ensure that gun sales entail background checks. If approved, the proposed rule would affect how guns are sold under federal law, and expand background check requirements to cover more sellers.

Last year, Congress passed the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which directed the Justice Department and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to look at federal rule definitions for firearms. This process is the result.

ATF reports not all gun shows are properly regulated. It varies by state.

Gun Shows

Universal background checks save lives from gun violence.

giffords.org

Because most gun shows are unregulated, they have become an attractive source of weapons for people looking to circumvent background checks and other gun safety laws. Unsurprisingly, then, guns purchased at gun shows are disproportionately used in criminal activity. Studies indicate that guns purchased in states with weak gun show regulations are particularly likely to be used in crime.

• Data from the ATF shows that about 8,300 crime guns recovered by law enforcement every year are originally sold by licensed dealers at gun shows. 7
• One study measured an increase in firearm deaths and injuries in California communities within convenient driving distance of Nevada gun shows, a state where there are no explicit regulations on gun shows. By contrast, researchers measured no increase in gun deaths or injuries following gun shows in California, where there are multiple laws that govern gun show sales.8 These results suggest that California’s gun show regulations may help to deter illicit firearm use.9

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download

 

[Betty P]

Hunter Biden's loophole may be closed:

Hunter Biden indicted on federal gun charges

The president's son was indicted after a plea agreement on tax and gun charges fell apart in July and as House Republicans investigate his finances.

www.nbcnews.com

jmho ymmv lrr

That's Hunter's problem. He's on his own.

 

[housewife]

Even at a gun show, a FFL holder/vendor, can't sell a firearm without a background check. It is federal law. Most states don't have additional laws because they just arent needed. The federal law is in place. Buying from a vendor at a gun show (an FFL vendor, and I really don't see any other at gun shows I go to) isn't any different then walking into a brick and mortar gun store. There is no "Gun show loophole." Private sales do not in fact require a background check. I know several people that routinely buy and sell privately and background checks are routine there. They do not occur with criminals.
I agree that the background check system is flawed. Reporting is flawed, as when it was revealed the DOD had huge gaps in reporting to the system. What gets reported needs to be clarified, as does errors in the system. And then when people are caught, they need to be prosecuted. But there seems to be no focus on this.

In your experience, how rigorous and thorough are the background checks? Personally I don't understand how you could complete a background check fast enough for a weekend gun show.
I'm really curious about the following: Did they ask if you had any restraining orders? Did they check to see if you were recently fired from your job? Do they even ask if the buyer has ever been convicted of assault, rape or domestic violence? What about convictions for child abuse/neglect or failure to pay child support? Previously hospitalized for mental illness (either forced or willing)?
Do they look for your name and any hate group affiliations?
Do they look at your social media to see if you have been posting threats?
And how do they ensure someone isn't lying?

 

[PrairieWind]

ATF reports not all gun shows are properly regulated. It varies by state.

Gun Shows

Universal background checks save lives from gun violence.

giffords.org

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download

You are quoting from Giffords.org. That is not media, it is an advocacy group. Just opinion. And not very accurate. Even the ATF figures show pretty low numbers of gun crime guns from gun shows. Saying a "gun show" is unregulated" is like alluding to some drug sales are "unregulated sales" ie illegal. Those have nothing to do with the gun show you see on Saturday at your local fair grounds. And yet it is those regulated gun shows that are the target of proposed new regulations. We already have laws on illegal gun sales. Lets just enforce those.

I hate to use Hunter Biden as an example because it just becomes political and it shouldn't. But it is a good example of the ridiculousness of absurdity. He is charged with lying on his form 4473 to purchase a firearm. That should be a pretty open and shut case. He admits he signed the form, and purchased the gun. But he is arguing that he shouldn't be charged, in part, because that law is rarely enforced (which actually isn't true). Stop and think about that for a bit. A man from a family and administration that is huge on gun control, illegal buys a gun but argues he can't be charged because the laws on gun control are not enforced enough, meanwhile his friends argue for more gun control laws. At what point do our heads explode here? I really try to tamp down the emotion in gun control discussions, because it doesn't help either argument. I am all for good discussions on reducing crime. I hear all sorts of calls for "common sense gun control." But what does that mean? I don't see much common sense.

 

[PrairieWind]

In your experience, how rigorous and thorough are the background checks? Personally I don't understand how you could complete a background check fast enough for a weekend gun show.
I'm really curious about the following: Did they ask if you had any restraining orders? Did they check to see if you were recently fired from your job? Do they even ask if the buyer has ever been convicted of assault, rape or domestic violence? What about convictions for child abuse/neglect or failure to pay child support? Previously hospitalized for mental illness (either forced or willing)?
Do they look for your name and any hate group affiliations?
Do they look at your social media to see if you have been posting threats?
And how do they ensure someone isn't lying?

For a FFL holder, they must have buyer complete a form 4473. That is then submitted electronically to the State or the FBI. The FBI does the check and sends the result, approved or denied. Increasingly private sellers will use the same process, this gives them some cover.

 

[Laughing]

In your experience, how rigorous and thorough are the background checks? Personally I don't understand how you could complete a background check fast enough for a weekend gun show.
I'm really curious about the following: Did they ask if you had any restraining orders? Did they check to see if you were recently fired from your job? Do they even ask if the buyer has ever been convicted of assault, rape or domestic violence? What about convictions for child abuse/neglect or failure to pay child support? Previously hospitalized for mental illness (either forced or willing)?
Do they look for your name and any hate group affiliations?
Do they look at your social media to see if you have been posting threats?
And how do they ensure someone isn't lying?

The background check is on a tablet or other wifi device. No notable difference between the counter at a Bass Pro location and a gun show.

A licensed dealer will err on the side of caution & ask the buyer to come to a brick&mortar location if there is a delay.

Licensed dealers -- people who comply with existing firearms laws -- are unlikely to risk their business & income & freedom for one potential customer with an improper background check.

If you have concerns about a gun show in your area, ask your Sheriff's Department or state Highway Patrol their opinion.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[mickey2942]

I have been to many gun shows in the Intermountain west, and in general, for private sales, the seller, usually knows the buyer. It is rare for there to be "cold" sales, complete stranger sale.

People who sell guns, collect guns, it is a pretty much a bunch who knows each other, or they sell to someone who is a friend of a friend. The guys I know are ex LEO, former military, they wouldn't sell to anyone who is doesn't seem to be part of this "group".

There are outliers, of course, but it is few and far between, usually sales of shotguns. Not handguns, maybe 22's, but that is target practice.

 

[housewife]

The background check is on a tablet or other wifi device. No notable difference between the counter at a Bass Pro location and a gun show.

A licensed dealer will err on the side of caution & ask the buyer to come to a brick&mortar location if there is a delay.

Licensed dealers -- people who comply with existing firearms laws -- are unlikely to risk their business & income & freedom for one potential customer with an improper background check.

If you have concerns about a gun show in your area, ask your Sheriff's Department or state Highway Patrol their opinion.

jmho ymmv lrr

Got it. Thanks for your patience, because this is confusing to me. I generally agree that people who adhere to our laws are not the problem.

But non-commercial sellers (private citizen to citizen) are not required to be licensed or have background checks? That just sounds ridiculous to me? What is the incentive to buy a gun from a licensed dealer, and wait for paperwork, when I can buy one immediately from a private citizen no questions asked?

In my opinion, our system of purchasing weapons is not "well-regulated".

I read this from Wikipedia and I'm so disappointed:
"United States Constitution does not empower the federal government to regulate non-commercial, intrastate transfers of legal firearms between private citizens".

 

[Laughing]

Got it. Thanks for your patience, because this is confusing to me. I generally agree that people who adhere to our laws are not the problem.

But non-commercial sellers (private citizen to citizen) are not required to be licensed or have background checks? That just sounds ridiculous to me? What is the incentive to buy a gun from a licensed dealer, and wait for paperwork, when I can buy one immediately from a private citizen no questions asked?

In my opinion, our system of purchasing weapons is not "well-regulated".

I read this from Wikipedia and I'm so disappointed:
"United States Constitution does not empower the federal government to regulate non-commercial, intrastate transfers of legal firearms between private citizens".

Well, licensed car dealers must comply with state & local regulations & generate taxes.

Buying a used car from an individual in their driveway -- parallel to consider. What is the incentive to buy from a dealer? Your own physical & financial protection, as a start.

Longest we've ever waited for an electronic check -- about 20 minutes & the clerk apologized 2 or 3 times.

There are citizens with licenses but no store -- many so-called 'kitchen-table' sales are with licensed dealers. Easy to ask for the license & take a picture with your phone.

Many shotguns are collector pieces. If inherited, the family may choose to sell those firearms one at a time. There are auctions.

Decades ago, we bought a pistol at a police auction, had to wait until the auction was complete & walk over to the police station with an officer to pick up the pistol.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[MyBelle]

I sure hope the SCOTUS exhibits some common sense and keeps guns out of the hands of dangerous people.
JMO

Supreme Court poised to support law banning domestic abusers from owning guns

A Texas man is challenging his conviction under a law that bars people who are the subject of domestic violence restraining order from owning guns.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Betty P]

You are quoting from Giffords.org. That is not media, it is an advocacy group. Just opinion. And not very accurate. Even the ATF figures show pretty low numbers of gun crime guns from gun shows. Saying a "gun show" is unregulated" is like alluding to some drug sales are "unregulated sales" ie illegal. Those have nothing to do with the gun show you see on Saturday at your local fair grounds. And yet it is those regulated gun shows that are the target of proposed new regulations. We already have laws on illegal gun sales. Lets just enforce those.

I hate to use Hunter Biden as an example because it just becomes political and it shouldn't. But it is a good example of the ridiculousness of absurdity. He is charged with lying on his form 4473 to purchase a firearm. That should be a pretty open and shut case. He admits he signed the form, and purchased the gun. But he is arguing that he shouldn't be charged, in part, because that law is rarely enforced (which actually isn't true). Stop and think about that for a bit. A man from a family and administration that is huge on gun control, illegal buys a gun but argues he can't be charged because the laws on gun control are not enforced enough, meanwhile his friends argue for more gun control laws. At what point do our heads explode here? I really try to tamp down the emotion in gun control discussions, because it doesn't help either argument. I am all for good discussions on reducing crime. I hear all sorts of calls for "common sense gun control." But what does that mean? I don't see much common sense.

Not trying to be pedantic, but the information in Giffords.org has references to this report from the ATF. I think they're a good source of information.

The linked section is a report on the source of crime guns that were recovered. Law enforcement agencies retrieve guns used in crimes and send them to ATF for tracing. Period covered by the report is 2017 - 2020.

There's a lot of data analysis in there worth looking at.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download

Link to ATF report 2007 Investigation of Gun Shows

https://oig.justice.gov/reports/ATF/e0707/final.pdf

Another report on Undercover Investigation of Gun Shows

https://www.nyc.gov/html/om/pdf/2009/pr442-09_report.pdf

JMO, I'm not sure how closing the "Gun Show Loophole" is going to help much. The big problem is with "straw buyers" who go in and buy large numbers of guns legally, then re-sell them to criminals, gangs, etc. There are ways to fix that problem, but closing that loophole isn't at the top of the list.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Access to guns was recently pointed out in the Cincinnati shooting. On Friday night, one child was killed, four children and one adult injured. One leader’s comments after yesterday’s mass-shooting:

"This is not an act of God; this is not a natural disaster. The devastation, the harm and the loss of life are a shock to us all, but they stem from actions of real people and they (are) enabled by access to guns," City Manager Sheryl Long told reporters, at times holding back tears, during a Sunday afternoon press conference.”
[…]


“Given the city’s rise in shootings involving teens, police have begun specifically tracking child homicide statistics, (Cincinnati Mayor) Pureval said, citing access to guns and inadequate conflict resolution as the causes of such violence.

He said 40% of the illegal weapons on Cincinnati’s streets are taken from cars. City officials have made repeated calls for gun owners to lock up their firearms to prevent such weapons from being stolen and used in crimes.”

'Sickening and unimaginable' mass shooting in Cincinnati leaves 11-year-old dead, 5 others injured

Cincinnati officials are expressing outrage and horror at a drive-by shooting that sent more than a score of bullets into a crowd of children, killing an 11-year-old and injuring 5 others.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Hunter Biden's loophole may be closed:

Hunter Biden indicted on federal gun charges

The president's son was indicted after a plea agreement on tax and gun charges fell apart in July and as House Republicans investigate his finances.

www.nbcnews.com

jmho ymmv lrr

Really disappointing to see that he broke the gun laws set in place.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Exactly -- the tool is NOT the problem, the user of the tool is the problem.

Address the user of the tool.

I like and respect you, and I hope you understand I’m taking issue with the subject matter only. But the phrase ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people’ and similar quotes are NRA talking points that are outdated, imo. Firearms are vastly different from other tools as they can kill and wound with minimal effort, and that’s their sole function.

Firearms are the issue. That’s why your peer nations are banning them and reducing access. Proliferation of guns + easy access + lax gun laws = the deaths and injuries you’re seeing in the US right now. And Canada is fighting the same issues, but making concrete steps forward, imo.

 

[PrairieWind]

I like and respect you, and I hope you understand I’m taking issue with the subject matter only. But the phrase ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people’ and similar quotes are NRA talking points that are outdated, imo. Firearms are vastly different from other tools as they can kill and wound with minimal effort, and that’s their sole function.

Firearms are the issue. That’s why your peer nations are banning them and reducing access. Proliferation of guns + easy access + lax gun laws = the deaths and injuries you’re seeing in the US right now. And Canada is fighting the same issues, but making concrete steps forward, imo.

Though your comment wasn't directed at me, I would like to respond. I very much respect your position as well. But I do disagree.
The NRA talking points are legit and are not outdated. What other nations do is not my concern and I don't want to tell them how to run their countries. But guns are NOT the problem. I have a safe full of firearms, some passed down from my father and some I bought myself. My close friends have similar collections. None of them have even been pointed at another human, let alone used in a crime. Clearly guns are not the problem. Why are so many people resorting to violence? I am very much in favor of looking at ways to keep firearms out of the hands of criminal and mentally unstable. But that takes work and real discussion. And we aren't seeing that.