George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[SouthAussie]

All terminology contrary to someone with "a depraved mind".

I think Chauvin is guilty as can be but why in the world does Minnesota have that ridiculous "depraved mind" condition in their murder law? It just seems completely unnecessary and muddies up guidelines. The verbal jury instruction is going to be critical in how that clause is explained. If you just take "depraved" and "evincing" at their Webster's Dictionary definitions it doesn't equal murder. It equals manslaughter. IMHO

I think the jury will be able to manage the depraved mind condition. They managed it in Noor's trial.

Noor shot willy-nilly at a defenseless woman who approached his car having reported a rape. Chauvin continued to kneel on the neck of a now-inert, non-responsive man for almost 4 minutes.

Neither of them cared that they were putting their victims at unreasonable risk of death or severe injury.

 

[Sillybilly]

All terminology contrary to someone with "a depraved mind".

I think Chauvin is guilty as can be but why in the world does Minnesota have that ridiculous "depraved mind" condition in their murder law? It just seems completely unnecessary and muddies up guidelines. The verbal jury instruction is going to be critical in how that clause is explained. If you just take "depraved" and "evincing" at their Webster's Dictionary definitions it doesn't equal murder. It equals manslaughter. IMHO

It's not ridiculous; it is a very established principle in law and certainly not peculiar to Minnesota.

In some jurisdictions "depraved mind murder" is referred to as "depraved heart murder" and has nothing to do with intelligence. My reference to Chauvin being reasonably intelligent was just another indication that, IMO, he should have known better than an imbecile.

ETA: https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1897&context=lawreview

 

[bluebird69]

So is it implied that DC's body cam was knocked off him during the struggle with GF being removed from the police car?

 

[Simply Southern]

Nelson did point out that his (DC's) knee was pointed towards the vehicle.



hmmm wonder if I can convince my hubby to get on the floor Most stills, his ankle is inwards, but toes outwards? I am I misunderstanding?

I took a perception/ paradigm course in the 80s, changed my life. I never take anything at face value.
I've been trying to recreate "that photo" since the beginning.
When I try to apply pressure with my knee I can't with my foot in that position. I had the neighbor (he knows I'm off a little) he couldn't either. With the foot turn sideways, on the ground there is no leverage to apply pressure.
I hope your hubby does give it a try and please let me know.
Moo

 

[Gibbo214]

I took a perception/ paradigm course in the 80s, changed my life. I never take anything at face value.
I've been trying to recreate "that photo" since the beginning.
When I try to apply pressure with my knee I can't with my foot in that position. I had the neighbor (he knows I'm off a little) he couldn't either. With the foot turn sideways, on the ground there is no leverage to apply pressure.
I hope your hubby does give it a try and please let me know.
Moo

IMO, that is why he is pressing his body weight down on his thigh.

 

[missy1974]

Yes, I have now watched the whole trial thing from today. And I believe that there are varying poses and postures that people (not you) are not willing to see.
There are clearly pics of Chauvin with his hand in his pocket AND pics of Chauvin with his hand on his leg.

He was there for 9 mins, he changed positions for his own comfort. He didn't remain in a frozen pose for 9 mins. imo

That is why I tried to show one pic of Chauvin's hand clearly in his pocket. I could also show pics of his gloved hand on his leg, but I think there is no need for that.

I just went back to the opening statement where the State played the whole bystander video, I have to disagree, not once do I see his hand his pocket. It's very clear when he reaches for his mace that it's not in his pocket. JMO And I don't think Chauvin moves much in that video, the most I see him move is to grab his mace

I was watching videos until 3 am last night looking at the knee after that photo/video was shown to the Chief (I wasn't paying attention to the hand lol) After today and more photo's being shown, I just don't know. I know from the front bystander video's it looks like his leg is more on his neck, but that's not what the body cam shows in those stills. And I don't think Nelson was picking and choosing times, I think these were the only one's that it can actually be seen. If there are other body cam views clearly showing his knee/shin on his neck I would have fully expected the State to show those today, they didn't.

ALL JMO

I just made my husband watch the video from the beginning as well, he at no time sees Chauvin's hand in his pocket.

We both think from that angle it really does look like his knee is on his neck too fwiw.

 

[missy1974]

So is it implied that DC's body cam was knocked off him during the struggle with GF being removed from the police car?

it was shown in court last week, it was lost when they were struggling in the backseat. It was also shown on Keung's body cam that he picked it up, asked Lane first if it was his, before asking Chauvin.
Here is what Chauvin's cam picked up:

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[Simply Southern]

IMO, that is why he is pressing his body weight down on his thigh.

I thought the same and had to test that theory. When pressure is applied to my thigh with my hand, my foot goes to straight position and forces my foot to a toe position. I can't force my foot/ankle to stay in a flat to the pavement position, DC is in the photo and apply weight.

Moo....

 

[SouthAussie]

I thought the same and had to test that theory. When pressure is applied to my thigh with my hand, by foot goes to straight position and forces my foot to a toe position. I can't force my foot/ankle to stay in a flat to the pavement position, DC is in the photo and apply weight.

Moo....

Were you wearing steel toed work shoes? They tend to keep a foot protected and in one position.

This pic of Chauvin kneeling on George's neck might give another perspective of the position of Chauvin's foot.
Slightly raised, using the big toe for balance, leaning over George's neck, full weight on George's neck, other leg behind balancing on the road.


George Floyd video: Derek Chauvin jurors watch 9-minute video of death

 

[missy1974]

I took a perception/ paradigm course in the 80s, changed my life. I never take anything at face value.
I've been trying to recreate "that photo" since the beginning.
When I try to apply pressure with my knee I can't with my foot in that position. I had the neighbor (he knows I'm off a little) he couldn't either. With the foot turn sideways, on the ground there is no leverage to apply pressure.
I hope your hubby does give it a try and please let me know.
Moo

Ok, so I couldn't get hubby to bite, but I did get my son! I see what you mean. I also needed to hold something (the chair in front of me) to even try to apply pressure, but then, yes, my foot moved.

 

[Simply Southern]

Were you wearing steel toed work shoes? They tend to keep a foot protected and in one position.

This pic of Chauvin kneeling on George's neck might give another perspective of the position of Chauvin's foot.
Slightly raised, using the big toe for balance, leaning over George's neck, full weight on George's neck, other leg behind balancing on the road.

View attachment 291661
George Floyd video: Derek Chauvin jurors watch 9-minute video of death

Yes, my pink Cathcart steeltoe and without --- the body will not allow pressure to the thigh without forcing the ankle and foot to a spring like position. At least for me and my neighbor, who works out daily, it's a body mechanics issue.
Moo

 

[Simply Southern]

Ok, so I couldn't get hubby to bite, but I did get my son! I see what you mean. I also needed to hold something (the chair in front of me) to even try to apply pressure, but then, yes, my foot moved.

Yup....same here

 

[Tippy Lynn]

All terminology contrary to someone with "a depraved mind".

I think Chauvin is guilty as can be but why in the world does Minnesota have that ridiculous "depraved mind" condition in their murder law? It just seems completely unnecessary and muddies up guidelines. The verbal jury instruction is going to be critical in how that clause is explained. If you just take "depraved" and "evincing" at their Webster's Dictionary definitions it doesn't equal murder. It equals manslaughter. IMHO

This is what I found regarding "depraved mind" on the State v Noor trial in Minnesota a few years ago.

Minnesota's third-degree murder statute does not define the phrase “depraved mind.” See Minn. Stat. § 609.195(a). Caselaw describes circumstances that may show a depraved mind as “ordinary symptoms of a wicked or depraved spirit, regardless of social duty and fatally bent on mischief.” State v. Weltz, 155 Minn. 143, 193 N.W. 42, 42 (Minn. 1923). Caselaw also states that “[a] mind which has become inflamed by emotions, disappointments, and hurt to such degree that it ceases to care for human life and safety is a depraved mind.” Mytych, 194 N.W.2d at 283. But our supreme court has said that the “nature of the act causing the death of another, and the circumstances attending it, may be prima facie evidence that the doer of the act was a man of depraved mind.” Weltz, 193 N.W. at 42. In other words, an act that “inevitably endangers human life, as every sane man must know,” shows that the actor was “possessed, in short, of a depraved mind.” Id. at 43. Thus, the nature of Noor's act, in and of itself, may demonstrate that he possessed a depraved mind.


https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/Noor04012021.pdf

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, my pink Cathcart steeltoe and without --- the body will not allow pressure to the thigh without forcing the ankle and foot to a spring like position. At least for me and my neighbor, who works out daily, it's a body mechanics issue.
Moo

So where would you suggest Chauvin's full weight was? The law of physics would suggest that it is straight up and down, from his body straight down to the knee he had on George's neck.

Pretty hard (impossible) to transfer a person's weight to any other area while in that position. If he was leaning back, maybe. But he is not leaning back. He is slightly bent at the waist and leaning forward. With his other leg way behind him.

 

[mom2chloe]

So is it implied that DC's body cam was knocked off him during the struggle with GF being removed from the police car?

Have we seen any of Chauvin’s body cam video? I know it was dropped but what was recorded prior to that? Surely there is something there. IMO

 

[Gibbo214]

Have we seen any of Chauvin’s body cam video? I know it was dropped but what was recorded peior to that? Surely there is something there. IMO

Yes, just a few posts back. With his hands around Floyd's neck from the back.

 

[Simply Southern]

So where would you suggest Chauvin's full weight was? The law of physics would suggest that it is straight up and down, from his body straight down to the knee he had on George's neck.

Pretty hard (impossible) to transfer a person's weight to any other area while in that position. If he was leaning back, maybe. But he is not leaning back. He is slightly bent at the waist and leaning forward. With his other leg way behind him.

I can't judge where DC weight would have been based on the one photo.
What I can say is when I duplicate the position in the photo my weight is on my right leg, I can't apply weight to my left leg and keep my foot sideways without pain or turning my foot to a toe to pavement position.
Just try it, its much harder than it looks in the photo, to apply any pressure to the left leg with the ankle turned. Yes, if I keep my ankle straight I can apply full pressure, no problem.

 

[mom2chloe]

Yes, just a few posts back. With his hands around Floyd's neck from the back.

Thanks! I missed this!

 

[Cubby]

I'm here and reading. Long day at work....

 

[Wild Rose]

It almost looks like he is not using his feet the way they look. Like he is balancing all his weight on his knee and the back foot is like a kickstand on a bike. If that is possible, a man's knee is about 4 square inches, used my husband to measure. If he is about 200 pounds, guessing, that is 50 pounds per square inch roughly. That is a lot of pressure pinpointed on the neck.