George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[missy1974]

Moriarty said he would be.
She’s an ex Public Defender for Hennepin County.
She’s been appearing on MSNBC to discuss the case.

Thank you! was suprised he wasn't on that list.

 

[branmuffin]

And I think now we know how he got that blood... from being pushed down against that center area of the back seat which is HARD metal or plastic MOO.

View attachment 291808

Is that GF's shoe on the floor in the back of the cruiser? Is it possible that the pills were put in his shoe and the DNA isn't from saliva but sweat?

 

[MsBetsy]

Is that GF's shoe on the floor in the back of the cruiser? Is it possible that the pills were put in his shoe and the DNA isn't from saliva but sweat?

That's a great point! I don't know if they can tell the difference between sweat and saliva.

 

[CrimeAway]

I do not have any definitive information about the specifics of the digestion and absortbtion of the pills containing fentanyl/methamphetamine that Mr. Floyd MAY have ingested. However, IMO, factors such as the presence of food in the stomach and small intestine, gastric pH etc. could be factors that would affect the absortbtion of drugs.

It is correct, IMO that different formulations/coatings/capsules and even inactive ingredients can affect the amount and absortbtion of drugs through the GI system.

Then, IMO, once medications/drugs/chemical compounds have made it across the GI mucosa and into the blood stream, their effects could depend on other factors such as presence of other substances, blood volume, pulse, blood pressure, blood flow to affected tissues, and then metabolism and/or excretion by the liver and kidneys.

AFIK, this is generally referred to as the "PHARMACOKINETICS" of a substance.

Usually, in my experience, searching the internet for terms such as "fentanyl pharmacokinetics" will provide some information about the NORMAL absortbtion of MEDICALLY PRESCRIBED drugs.

Of course, none of us were there that day, and we cannot be sure what, how, and when, Mr Floyd may (or may not) have (self) administered controlled substances, similar to those that were found in both the blue Mercedes and the (320) squad car.

I want so much to go off on a tangent about drugs, mental health, LE, and the justice system, but I'll sit back on my fingers

 

[CrimeAway]

Is that GF's shoe on the floor in the back of the cruiser? Is it possible that the pills were put in his shoe and the DNA isn't from saliva but sweat?

I believe one of the forensic experts today (maybe the first one who graduated from ND, and then Georgetown ?), testified as to the presence of amylase on the pill (or fragments) that was found in the back of squad car 320.

Amylase is an enzyme that is secreted in the month to begin the process of breaking down carbohydrates, and is normally found in saliva.

Amylase - Wikipedia

 

[missy1974]

Is that GF's shoe on the floor in the back of the cruiser? Is it possible that the pills were put in his shoe and the DNA isn't from saliva but sweat?

IIRC from todays testimony, the pill tested positive for amylase, which is found in saliva, starts the digestive process. JMO

 

[missy1974]

I do not have any definitive information about the specifics of the digestion and absortbtion of the pills containing fentanyl/methamphetamine that Mr. Floyd MAY have ingested. However, IMO, factors such as the presence of food in the stomach and small intestine, gastric pH etc. could be factors that would affect the absortbtion of drugs.

It is correct, IMO that different formulations/coatings/capsules and even inactive ingredients can affect the amount and absortbtion of drugs through the GI system.

Then, IMO, once medications/drugs/chemical compounds have made it across the GI mucosa and into the blood stream, their effects could depend on other factors such as presence of other substances, blood volume, pulse, blood pressure, blood flow to affected tissues, and then metabolism and/or excretion by the liver and kidneys.

AFIK, this is generally referred to as the "PHARMACOKINETICS" of a substance.

Usually, in my experience, searching the internet for terms such as "fentanyl pharmacokinetics" will provide some information about the NORMAL absortbtion of MEDICALLY PRESCRIBED drugs.

Of course, none of us were there that day, and we cannot be sure what, how, and when, Mr Floyd may (or may not) have (self) administered controlled substances, similar to those that were found in both the blue Mercedes and the (320) squad car.

I want so much to go off on a tangent about drugs, mental health, LE, and the justice system, but I'll sit back on my fingers

Thanks CrimeAway! I could only find info about manufactured fentanyl too. There are so many factors in play.

 

[Gibbo214]

That's a great point! I don't know if they can tell the difference between sweat and saliva.

They can.

 

[Rocky1]

It's possible, but they didn't indicate in the autopsy that anything like that was found. Chewing opioids would cause most of the medicine to be released into the bloodstream faster, so I'm not sure how much would be left in the stomach.

We already know that he had metabolized fentanyl in his system, we just don't know how recently he had taken any pills. Imo

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they find bits of pills on Floyd's clothing? IIRC, I read/heard that somewhere here?
If that is true, he may have crushed up a/ some pills and snorted them. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any in the stomach.

Perhaps when we hear the Park Police testify, we'll know more.

Perhaps when we see the video of Floyd sitting and leaning up against the Dragon Wok, tossing that baggie of what appears to be white powder, we'll have a better understanding.
Timestamp@2:57

 

[Rocky1]

It appears the NBC Peacock in the lower right hand side of the screen blocks Floyd tossing the baggie from his left hand in the previous link I posted above.
If you type ..Go George Floyd Baggie and click on the video, you'll see it. The screen is larger.

 

[Sillybilly]

Also, I heard "ain't" not ate.

I ate too many drugs, vs. I ain't do any drugs. Smh. Not a chance GF could have enunciated ate too clearly enough to distinguishthose two words.

Chris Cuomo had Van Jones on tonite, and (paraphrasing here as best I can) .. he made an excellent point about the defence trying to say it was "I ate too many drugs". GF obviously did not want to be arrested, so why would he offer up that he ate too many drugs? Makes much more sense that he said "I ain't do any drugs" because he was not wanting to be arrested.

This type of arrest happens every day in America. "This was basic policing that took a macabre turn."

The defence is trying to say that GF was faking it when he repeatedly told officers he was in distress. Then there is 4 1/2 minutes where GF is not moving or saying a single thing while Chauvin still has his knee on GF's neck. So if GF was faking it, why is he dead?

 

[Tom_Servo]

After learning of Chauvins stature I don't care that he had both knees on GF. 140lbs is a small man. Are we sure about that? I read it here and was shocked to see he was 140lbs. I can toss my 135lb son off me like a bean bag chair.

Along with being a bad cop Chauvin might also suffer from the small man syndrome. He probably felt he needed both knees on GF to restrain him and I don't blame him for it. GF was a big guy and Chauvin is small for a man and tiny by comparison to GF. Chauvin could have easily been thrown off if it wasn't for the other cops. No way was he holding down GF on his own even with both knees.

 

[delilah]

After learning of Chauvins stature I don't care that he had both knees on GF. 140lbs is a small man. Are we sure about that? I read it here and was shocked to see he was 140lbs. I can toss my 135lb son off me like a bean bag chair.

Along with being a bad cop Chauvin might also suffer from the small man syndrome. He probably felt he needed both knees on GF to restrain him and I don't blame him for it. GF was a big guy and Chauvin is small for a man and tiny by comparison to GF. Chauvin could have easily been thrown off if it wasn't for the other cops. No way was he holding down GF on his own even with both knees.

Have you tried doing that while cuffed and lying prone? The weight thing is another red herring IMO. The question is whether DC continuing to press his knee into GF’s neck after GF stopped resisting was unreasonable force or not. I do think DC was trying to teach GF a lesson. Small white man trying to dominate a large black man. That’s how it looks to me anyway.

 

[Niner]

Hey @JerseyGirl - please "tag" me when you open up Trial Day 9 thread! TIA!

 

[Tippy Lynn]

The defense is trying to use DC’s size in comparison to GF’s to minimize DC’s use of force.

Size doesn’t matter. An officer is only allowed to use a level of force that is proportional to the seriousness of the crime, or the level of resistance.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I do not have any definitive information about the specifics of the digestion and absortbtion of the pills containing fentanyl/methamphetamine that Mr. Floyd MAY have ingested. However, IMO, factors such as the presence of food in the stomach and small intestine, gastric pH etc. could be factors that would affect the absortbtion of drugs.

It is correct, IMO that different formulations/coatings/capsules and even inactive ingredients can affect the amount and absortbtion of drugs through the GI system.

Then, IMO, once medications/drugs/chemical compounds have made it across the GI mucosa and into the blood stream, their effects could depend on other factors such as presence of other substances, blood volume, pulse, blood pressure, blood flow to affected tissues, and then metabolism and/or excretion by the liver and kidneys.

AFIK, this is generally referred to as the "PHARMACOKINETICS" of a substance.

Usually, in my experience, searching the internet for terms such as "fentanyl pharmacokinetics" will provide some information about the NORMAL absortbtion of MEDICALLY PRESCRIBED drugs.

Of course, none of us were there that day, and we cannot be sure what, how, and when, Mr Floyd may (or may not) have (self) administered controlled substances, similar to those that were found in both the blue Mercedes and the (320) squad car.

I want so much to go off on a tangent about drugs, mental health, LE, and the justice system, but I'll sit back on my fingers

This is a great post. I agree especially with the bolded sentiment.

Chris Cuomo had Van Jones on tonite, and (paraphrasing here as best I can) .. he made an excellent point about the defence trying to say it was "I ate too many drugs". GF obviously did not want to be arrested, so why would he offer up that he ate too many drugs? Makes much more sense that he said "I ain't do any drugs" because he was not wanting to be arrested.

This type of arrest happens every day in America. "This was basic policing that took a macabre turn."

The defence is trying to say that GF was faking it when he repeatedly told officers he was in distress. Then there is 4 1/2 minutes where GF is not moving or saying a single thing while Chauvin still has his knee on GF's neck. So if GF was faking it, why is he dead?

I agree here too. One thing I could tell for sure was that he did not want to be arrested. Why say that? There’s no good reason unless he was completely out of it. I’m not convinced of that.

“Faking it” isn’t the terminology I’d use here. We can’t know for sure. However, when I first saw the video, all I could think about was my encounters with belligerent or hostile individuals. No matter what was going on, and almost immediately into the interaction, they began claiming they “can’t breathe”. This has happened soooo many times for me. I can understand the statement “if you’re talking, you can breathe”. I’ve had people fight me screaming “I can’t breathe” while they’re being approached, cuffed, gassed, tased, restrained, and anything else you can think of. Much more often than not were these people breathing fine. I could see they were. When I saw these videos however, I thought a lot of ‘the boy who cried wolf ’. GF obviously (to me and IMOO) could breathe, initially, despite his cries of despair. It was only later, much later, that he could obviously not breathe (IMOO). And during the heat of the moment that is hard to determine. Although I could tell, and most everyone else knew, when he obviously couldn’t breathe. Literally. And I’m not excusing any behavior. I’m trying to put into perspective what others may not be familiar with.

After learning of Chauvins stature I don't care that he had both knees on GF. 140lbs is a small man. Are we sure about that? I read it here and was shocked to see he was 140lbs. I can toss my 135lb son off me like a bean bag chair.

Along with being a bad cop Chauvin might also suffer from the small man syndrome. He probably felt he needed both knees on GF to restrain him and I don't blame him for it. GF was a big guy and Chauvin is small for a man and tiny by comparison to GF. Chauvin could have easily been thrown off if it wasn't for the other cops. No way was he holding down GF on his own even with both knees.

I had the same reaction. GF looked like a big man to me. I’d have never guessed anyone else was that small.

Have you tried doing that while cuffed and lying prone? The weight thing is another red herring IMO. The question is whether DC continuing to press his knee into GF’s neck after GF stopped resisting was unreasonable force or not. I do think DC was trying to teach GF a lesson. Small white man trying to dominate a large black man. That’s how it looks to me anyway.

I don’t think anyone was trying to teach anyone a lesson. I’ve personally been assaulted by someone half my size and high on drugs. And they were cuffed. They had almost super human strength. I couldn’t restrain them despite the size and (normal) strength difference. I’m not implying circumstances were the same in this case, but I do believe there were extenuating circumstances that should be taken into consideration.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

As much as I hate to say this, and I know it will be a death sentence for saying this, but I feel like Derek is innocent. He was just doing his job, yes he took it too far, I know, but George was resisting arrest. Plus, the amount of drugs in his system, which shouldn't be present to begin with, were incriminating. The problem with letting Derek go is that it would be a death sentence for the US. BLM will get furious and use rumor over fact, and cities will be gone in a snap. This is ridiculous. It's a hard choice here - go with the justice system and let an innocent man go (while the cities burn), or convict an innocent man and prevent pandemonium. It's confusing.

when you are a police officer you have a duty of care to whoever is in your custody. Taking it too far is not something that can just be pushed aside when DC’s actions caused the death of GF. He acted with indifference towards human life. Whether GF had drugs in his system or not, he was not resisting for the last 3 minutes or so of the video, infact he was no longer responsive atall and DC knew from his training that he should not continuously restrain GF in the prone position. He violated his duty as a LEO , he violated policy and procedure and GF died as a direct result of his unnecessary use of force and his failure to provide adequate medical attention when alerted to the fact that other officers could not find a pulse. GF could probably have been revived in the first minute of becoming unresponsive and would likely still be alive if he hadn’t been neglected and forced to die in the street. JMO

 

[Cubby]

As much as I hate to say this, and I know it will be a death sentence for saying this, but I feel like Derek is innocent. He was just doing his job, yes he took it too far, I know, but George was resisting arrest. Plus, the amount of drugs in his system, which shouldn't be present to begin with, were incriminating. The problem with letting Derek go is that it would be a death sentence for the US. BLM will get furious and use rumor over fact, and cities will be gone in a snap. This is ridiculous. It's a hard choice here - go with the justice system and let an innocent man go (while the cities burn), or convict an innocent man and prevent pandemonium. It's confusing.

Dead men can't resist arrest.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Day 9 thread is open. Please continue here:

MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #12 - Chauvin Trial Day 9

@Niner

 

[Gibbo214]

New court docs say George Floyd had "fatal level" of fentanyl in his system | kare11.com

That headline is somewhat misleading.
Dr Baker's conclusion is:
In Baker's final report after watching the videos, he ruled Floyd's death a homicide caused by "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."