George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[SouthAussie]

Thank you.
He's not appearing as a defense expert in this case tho', is he?

I don't know. I haven't looked closely at the witness list. It shows how much money some experts require for their 'independent' testimony though.

I think I prefer the witnesses who testify due to an ethical obligation or sense of responsibility, as opposed to testifying for personal monetary profit.

 

[kittythehare]

We were discussing FENTANYL levels. Methamphetamine is a completely different drug.

The EXPERTS were actually discussing BOTH drugs actually.

 

[missy1974]

I'm not sure there is an article that states it was a "therapeutic" level. There are many levels so we would have to know the specific dose to compare it to what was found in Floyd's system.

Today the toxicologist said that it was common for intoxicated driving suspects who used fentanyl to have higher levels in their system than Floyd did. He said the level of norfentanyl in his system was not consistent with a typical fentanyl overdose.

He said that last year, in cases where NMS labs tested blood from a person who had taken fentanyl, the average amount was 16.8 nanograms per milliliter, about 50% higher than what was found in Floyd's blood.

Since Floyd was a chronic user, I would imagine he initially was prescribed the starting dose for percocet. What his tolerance was at the time of his death we don't know. Imo

I'm really not trying to be argumentative about it, but you have posted and replied to my comments about fentanyl tonight with "it was therapeutic levels" and kittythehare has replied with posts about meth and hours long testimony and all I want to know is where it is stated that the fentanyl was a 'therapeutic' level. In testimony today? In the autopsy report? The ME hasn't testified yet, so it's not in his testimony.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm really not trying to be argumentative about it, but you have posted and replied to my comments about fentanyl tonight with "it was therapeutic levels" and kittythehare has replied with posts about meth and hours long testimony and all I want to know is where it is stated that the fentanyl was a 'therapeutic' level. In testimony today? In the autopsy report? The ME hasn't testified yet, so it's not in his testimony.

I already provided you and Crime away with the link

 

[missy1974]

I already provided you and Crime away with the link

surely you have a timestamp, or do I have to watch all 8 hours to find it?
Or maybe you could even give me a clue and tell me which expert it was that said the fentanyl level was at 'theraputic levels'?

TIA

 

[missy1974]

Do we know, or have thoughts on, whether or not DC will take the stand?

I WANT to hear from him, but I don't think in a million years he would get up there and testify.

 

[Niner]

@JerseyGirl - me again! Let me know when you open up the Trial Day 10 thread, please! TIA!

 

[missy1974]

About the pills, in addition to those with pharmaceutical markings ...

The final witness of the day, Susan Neigh, told jurors that she performed tests on three pills to determine how much methamphetamine or fentanyl each tablet contained.

Neigh said that one of the pills recovered "seemed to have a rougher surface consistency compared to the other two that were smoother."

The analysis showed that all of the pills contained a concentration of fentanyl less than 1%. The methamphetamine purity of the tablets ranged from 1.9% to 2.9%.

Prosecutors then asked about the levels of methamphetamine, and how that compares to street or recreational versions of the drug.

In her experience, she said, "That is low."

"A majority of the time I see 90 to 100% of methamphetamine."

Pills Gathered From George Floyd Scene Contained Traces Of Methamphetamine, Fentanyl

thanks for this IIRC from testimony yesterday, the pills were marked as if they were legit pills, but they were not what they were marked as. So they were street/homemade pills, and as was pointed out again today, what one pill contains, the next might have more or less. It is not regulated like manufactured pills.

 

[mom2chloe]

Do we know, or have thoughts on, whether or not DC will take the stand?

Hubby mentioned he should if only to refute “intent”. Hubby has legal background but I suggested to him that if DC testifies he opens himself to Federal inquiries and/or charges. Hubby reconsiders. Idk because we really don’t know what will happen.

 

[mom2chloe]

thanks for this IIRC from testimony yesterday, the pills were marked as if they were legit pills, but they were not what they were marked as. So they were street/homemade pills, and as was pointed out again today, what one pill contains, the next might have more or less. It is not regulated like manufactured pills.

They could have been tainted, cross contaminated or whatever. Scary the realization that people can buy what they think is one thing only to be contaminated with something else. A risk you take with street drugs and something FDA tries to educate people on but the truth is when you purchase anywhere other than a legal pharmacy you simply do not know what you’re buying or consuming. IMO
ETA how do we make sense of GF’s toxicology report vs whatever drugs his may have been cut with? What else was in the cocktail and what would the fallout resemble? IMO

 

[kittythehare]

Forensic toxicologist Daniel Isenschmid testified that the levels of fentanyl and methamphetamine found in George Floyd’s system were less than the amount present in DUI cases on average.

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm really not trying to be argumentative about it, but you have posted and replied to my comments about fentanyl tonight with "it was therapeutic levels" and kittythehare has replied with posts about meth and hours long testimony and all I want to know is where it is stated that the fentanyl was a 'therapeutic' level. In testimony today? In the autopsy report? The ME hasn't testified yet, so it's not in his testimony.

I guess therapeutic level only means the level for someone who has been managing pain for a long time.


But when Chauvin’s trial for his alleged role in Floyd’s death begins, much of the argument will center instead on the autopsy details, most specifically whether fentanyl and underlying health conditions — not the police officer’s actions — stopped Floyd’s heart and lungs.

Seven experts in toxicology, cardiology and illegal drug use consulted by The Washington Post largely disagreed with that idea, most of them strenuously.

“From my review of the video and the autopsy report, I see nothing that makes me think he died of an opioid overdose,” said Kavita Babu, chief opioid officer and chief of the Division of Medical Toxicology at UMass Memorial Health Care in Worcester, Mass.
Instead, she and others said, the defense uses events out of order and medical findings out of context to deflect blame from Chauvin to Floyd.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...d4f328-76ec-11eb-9537-496158cc5fd9_story.html

 

[kittythehare]

While pressing his knee against the downed man, Chauvin's toe on the same leg was shown to be not touching the ground, meaning all the pressure and weight of the officer was being borne by Mr Floyd's neck.

he expert calculated that at times when Chauvin was in a near-vertical position, with his toes off the ground, half of Chauvin’s body weight with his gear included — 41.5 kilograms — was directly on Mr Floyd’s neck.

Chauvin kept his knee on Mr Floyd’s neck for three minutes and two seconds after he took his last breath, Dr Tobin said.

Disturbing photo detail emerges in George Floyd murder trial

 

[mom2chloe]

Forensic toxicologist Daniel Isenschmid testified that the levels of fentanyl and methamphetamine found in George Floyd’s system were less than the amount present in DUI cases on average.

This leads me to what I have been thinking but couldn’t put my finger on. Specifically were there any other drugs in GF’s system? Sedatives? THC use maybe but did he just ingest a bunch in a quicker manner? Dabs I think is what the kids call it. A high dose of THC? Why was he unable to be awakened in the car prior to LE arriving. Maybe he was tired from sports, Covid recovery and life in general. Why the struggle within the vehicle? Hiding pills, dropping them, desiring to find them and ingest prior to arrest? I get that he didn’t want to go back to jail but why the resistance? IMO

 

[Gibbo214]

I think it is pointless for we, who are not pharmacologists to be discussing dosages and concentrations. It is way above most of our payscales.

 

[kittythehare]

This leads me to what I have been thinking but couldn’t put my finger on. Specifically were there any other drugs in GF’s system? Sedatives? THC use maybe but did he just ingest a bunch in a quicker manner? Dabs I think is what the kids call it. A high dose of THC? Why was he unable to be awakened in the car prior to LE arriving. Maybe he was tired from sports, Covid recovery and life in general. Why the struggle within the vehicle? Hiding pills, dropping them, desiring to find them and ingest prior to arrest? I get that he didn’t want to go back to jail but why the resistance? IMO

He had THC in his system also but it could not be ascertained when it got there. CPR can release THC stored in fat cells.
I THINK it was the same witness in the link that gave that testimony today.

 

[Gibbo214]

It says that the Manhattan DA's office paid $536,940 for his work as an expert witness in the two trials of Etan Patz's killer.
Also says that Dr. Michael Welner is "a controversial figure in his field who has gained notoriety for his work on trying to measure evil" by assessing the state of mind of Pedro Hernandez who killed Etan Paz.

Dr Welner said that he is worth every penny. He was paid this amount over a 5 year period.

Manhattan DA's office paid unbelievable amount to psychiatrist who assessed convicted Etan Patz killer

There is one notorious British doctor who has made a fortune by appearing for the defence in shaken baby syndrome all over the world. She claims and will swear that it is not a thing.

 

[kittythehare]

I think it is pointless for we, who are not pharmacologists to be discussing dosages and concentrations. It is way above most of our payscales.

Well, the three experts testified. They discussed it in great detail.
I have no reason to assume any of them was lying.
I accept their testimonies, they have seen all the evidence. We have not.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm really not trying to be argumentative about it, but you have posted and replied to my comments about fentanyl tonight with "it was therapeutic levels" and kittythehare has replied with posts about meth and hours long testimony and all I want to know is where it is stated that the fentanyl was a 'therapeutic' level. In testimony today? In the autopsy report? The ME hasn't testified yet, so it's not in his testimony.

I don't remember using the term "therapeutic levels," so I'm not sure what you mean.

I think it's getting confusing because we are discussing different things. The expert witnesses discussed the levels of both drugs during the trial, but earlier I also mentioned what Dr. Baker initially said when the preliminary autopsy report first came out. It would really help if I could find the article since I'm sure I read it here. I thought for sure he compared the amount in his system to the amount a "chronic pain patient" would take. I thought that was a very broad statement and misleading. That's all. The only reason I brought it up again is because I was asked for the source. Maybe he didn't say it but I'm pretty sure somebody did. Imo

 

[Gibbo214]

He had THC in his system also but it could not be ascertained when it got there. CPR can release THC stored in fat cells.
I THINK it was the same witness in the link that gave that testimony today.

My SIL is a manager of a coal mine who have random drug and alcohol tests for workers and he tells me that THC can be detected up to two weeks after using.