George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[margarita25]

My SIL is a manager of a coal mine who have random drug and alcohol tests for workers and he tells me that THC can be detected up to two weeks after using.

(Behind, jumping in here, sorry if rehash)

And sometimes longer, jmo. THC is stored in fat cells. If one who smokes regularly wants to be sure to clear a THC test naturally, best to refrain for at least a month, JMO.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm new to watching trials, Prosecution hasn't rested so they're still on, right?
What else could we expect from them?

There is another expert medical expert to testify. That will be on Monday.

 

[SouthAussie]

“You're trying to distill this down in such a reductive way that you're losing all of the facts that are at issue in this case. So every time this defense counsel tries to raise hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the facts, he invites a new witness — not a fact witness, but an expert witness — to now revisit and remind the jury of what happened to George Floyd in his final moments”

Does this mean that the prosecution will be able to recall witnesses on rebuttal?
I guess I am wondering this ... the prosecution presents their case, the defense presents their case, then what? Witnesses can be called back by the prosecution prior to closing arguments?

I am just going to answer my own question here, as I have now researched the answer.

Yes, the prosecution can present witnesses for rebuttal after the defense has made their case. In this case, I believe it would have to be a witness(es) who has not yet appeared who rebutts the defense's case/evidence.
Presumably, the prosecution would have some experts standing by in case they are needed for rebuttal.


At the conclusion of the defendant's case, the plaintiff or government can present rebuttal witnesses or evidence to refute evidence presented by the defendant. This may include only evidence not presented in the case initially, or a new witness who contradicts the defendant's witnesses.
How Courts Work

 

[kittythehare]

Ahh
Beautiful

 

[branmuffin]

Is it possible when the Dr. said GF was alive at the hospital it was more of a formal declaration since in many states a person must be declared dead by a medical doctor.

According to Wiki:
"Most legal determinations of death in the developed world are made by medical professionals who pronounce death when specific criteria are met.[4] Two categories of legal death are death determined by irreversible cessation of heartbeat (cardiopulmonary death), and death determined by irreversible cessation of functions of the brain (brain death).[citation needed][dubious – discuss] In the United States, each state has laws for determining these two categories of death that are modeled after the Uniform Determination of Death Act. States that do not recognize "irreversible cessation of all function of the entire brain, including the brainstem" to be death include Arizona, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, North Carolina, and Texas.[5][1]

Cardiopulmonary criteria for death are met when a physician determines that efforts to restart a stopped heart during cardiac arrest are futile, or that no attempt should be made to restart a stopped heart, such as when there is a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order. In the latter case, irreversible is understood to mean that heartbeat and breathing cannot return on their own and will not be restored by medical intervention.[6][7]

 

[kittythehare]

Emergency doctor's testimony

Here is the paramedic's testimony (a further copy of this with footage is on NYT)
Paramedic Testifies George Floyd Was Dead While Derek Chauvin Was Still Kneeling On Him

 

[MadMcGoo]

Is it possible when the Dr. said GF was alive at the hospital it was more of a formal declaration since in many states a person must be declared dead by a medical doctor.

According to Wiki:
"Most legal determinations of death in the developed world are made by medical professionals who pronounce death when specific criteria are met.[4] Two categories of legal death are death determined by irreversible cessation of heartbeat (cardiopulmonary death), and death determined by irreversible cessation of functions of the brain (brain death).[citation needed][dubious – discuss] In the United States, each state has laws for determining these two categories of death that are modeled after the Uniform Determination of Death Act. States that do not recognize "irreversible cessation of all function of the entire brain, including the brainstem" to be death include Arizona, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, North Carolina, and Texas.[5][1]

Cardiopulmonary criteria for death are met when a physician determines that efforts to restart a stopped heart during cardiac arrest are futile, or that no attempt should be made to restart a stopped heart, such as when there is a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order. In the latter case, irreversible is understood to mean that heartbeat and breathing cannot return on their own and will not be restored by medical intervention.[6][7]

This was my initial thought.

 

[whitelilac]

Question: If Chauvin testifies on the stand, would the prosecution be informed in advance, or can that be a last minute decision without advising the prosecuting attorneys?

 

[Cool Cats]

INMO, Chauvin would not be a likeable person on the stand. His whole attitude is "cocky". As if this trial is just one big bother to him. Have not seen a lot of actual contrition.

Lane, on the other hand, looks like he genuinely was not only traumatized by the situation, but also very remorseful. Chauvin could try a bit harder to show something...

Sorry I'm not up to speed What do you mean about Lane? Like when did you see him traumatized and remorseful....?

Just trying to " get my head " around all of this. Thanks @mickey2942

 

[mickey2942]

Sorry I'm not up to speed What do you mean about Lane? Like when did you see him traumatized and remorseful....?

Just trying to " get my head " around all of this. Thanks @mickey2942

At the first hearing. Lane was the only one who looked like he was sorry, actual grief. I wonder if it is because he had tried to intervene, and couldn't stop Chauvin. And Lane did do chest compressions on GF.

First day on the job. I feel for the guy.

 

[SouthAussie]

Question: If Chauvin testifies on the stand, would the prosecution be informed in advance, or can that be a last minute decision without advising the prosecuting attorneys?

On TV shows they suddenly put the defendant on the stand and everybody gasps.

But all I can find in real life is .... (so, I am guessing it could happen but it would be highly unusual)

Contrary to popular crime dramas, surprise evidence at the last minute vindicating or convicting a defendant is rare.
Discovery Process in a Criminal Case

"I guess, you may say that to avoid surprises in court, last minute presentation of evidence is generally not favored. If a last minute evidence is admitted in court, it can only be one of two things: (1) it was admitted in the interest of justice or (2) the judge has to review his procedural law."

"Almost never, and if it were introduced at the last minute, allowed into evidence, and used to determine the outcome, it would be immediate grounds for appeal and reversal."
How often is last minute evidence really brought into a courtroom? - Quora

 

[Cool Cats]

At the first hearing. Lane was the only one who looked like he was sorry, actual grief. I wonder if it is because he had tried to intervene, and couldn't stop Chauvin. And Lane did do chest compressions on GF.

First day on the job. I feel for the guy.

Wait, you say first day on the job?

Then why is he charged. He was following his superior.

Not right charging him.

Imagine following your boss on a job. Your commanding Boss/officer in charge is telling you "this is how we do it " This is the protocol....

 

[In vino veritas]

At the first hearing. Lane was the only one who looked like he was sorry, actual grief. I wonder if it is because he had tried to intervene, and couldn't stop Chauvin. And Lane did do chest compressions on GF.

First day on the job. I feel for the guy.

I strongly feel Lane will be acquitted at his trial.

 

[Gibbo214]

On TV shows they suddenly put the defendant on the stand and everybody gasps.

But all I can find in real life is .... (so, I am guessing it could happen but it would be highly unusual)

Contrary to popular crime dramas, surprise evidence at the last minute vindicating or convicting a defendant is rare.
Discovery Process in a Criminal Case

"I guess, you may say that to avoid surprises in court, last minute presentation of evidence is generally not favored. If a last minute evidence is admitted in court, it can only be one of two things: (1) it was admitted in the interest of justice or (2) the judge has to review his procedural law."

"Almost never, and if it were introduced at the last minute, allowed into evidence, and used to determine the outcome, it would be immediate grounds for appeal and reversal."
How often is last minute evidence really brought into a courtroom? - Quora

The notes on the toilet paper in the Patrick Frazee trial were almost last minute, weren't they?

 

[SouthAussie]

Wait, you say first day on the job?

Then why is he charged. He was following his superior.

Not right charging him.

Imagine following your boss on a job. Your commanding Boss/officer in charge is telling you "this is how we do it " This is the protocol....

For both Kueng and Lane it was their first week on the job, flying solo (together) as rookies.

I haven't heard so much about Kueng, but Lane has a lot of empathisers out there. He really truly tried to do the right thing (recovery position) and was overruled.

Even afterwards, he was the one in the ambulance doing CPR as the EMT tried other resuscitation measures.

2 of the police officers charged over George Floyd's deadly arrest had been less than 4 days into the job, their lawyers say

 

[In vino veritas]

All we know is that he was not manifesting typical fentanyl poisoning.. Or anything close to it.

I wonder why the weight of the lungs has not been brought into question yet. GFs lungs each were more than twice the normal weight. Usually associated with a drug overdose, but can also possibly be attributed to edema from chest compression.
Perhaps defense will address this when they present b

 

[SouthAussie]

The notes on the toilet paper in the Patrick Frazee trial were almost last minute, weren't they?

I don't know, I didn't follow that case.

I guess if the judge feels that Chauvin last-minute testifying (if he wants to) is in the interest of justice, it will be allowed.
I actually don't see how it could be denied, if Chauvin wants to do it, as surely it would be in the interest of justice to let him do that. In a situation where he is on trial and his future freedom is at stake.

"it can only be one of two things: (1) it was admitted in the interest of justice or (2) the judge has to review his procedural law"

 

[shotgun09]

On TV shows they suddenly put the defendant on the stand and everybody gasps.

But all I can find in real life is .... (so, I am guessing it could happen but it would be highly unusual)

Contrary to popular crime dramas, surprise evidence at the last minute vindicating or convicting a defendant is rare.
Discovery Process in a Criminal Case

"I guess, you may say that to avoid surprises in court, last minute presentation of evidence is generally not favored. If a last minute evidence is admitted in court, it can only be one of two things: (1) it was admitted in the interest of justice or (2) the judge has to review his procedural law."

"Almost never, and if it were introduced at the last minute, allowed into evidence, and used to determine the outcome, it would be immediate grounds for appeal and reversal."
How often is last minute evidence really brought into a courtroom? - Quora

A surprise defensive move? I immediately go to the hysterical performance of the 'defendant ' Jodi Arias in her 'football stance' display in court. Hopefully, we will be spared that type of drama in this trial!

 

[MsBetsy]

This was my initial thought.

Yeah, I'm sure he meant Floyd hadn't been "pronounced" dead until after arriving at the hospital. He never started breathing again after 8:25 pm and they were never able get his heart started. He was dead by the time paramedics arrived. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I wonder why the weight of the lungs has not been brought into question yet. GFs lungs each were more than twice the normal weight. Usually associated with a drug overdose, but can also possibly be attributed to edema from chest compression.
Perhaps defense will address this when they present b

Yes, Dr. Baker mentioned that was typical when CPR has been performed.