George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[Gibbo214]

I do not disagree with you.

But from testimony, not one State witness has said he showed that symptom.

Are you saying that maybe that symptom or long term effect just happened to show up at the moment that he was being put into the squad car?

No. I do not. We do not know when he became short of breath, but being put into a small space and having a knee on his neck and two more on his back certainly made it 'show up'.

 

[CrimeAway]

I just came across this on YouTube.

This is Judge Cahill ruling on admissibility of evidence, that covers a lot of issues we have been discussing over the past few days. Has this been discussed before?

My initial reaction is , as it was when I read details of some of DC's arrest complaints, which I am including for completeness:
Prosecutors: Chauvin knelt on 14-year-old boy’s back

I would really recommend (MO) watching this clip in it's entirety. Remember, you can speed YouTube videos up by using the settings feature (looks like a gear cog)

 

[Gibbo214]

I just came across this on YouTube.

This is Judge Cahill ruling on admissibility of evidence, that covers a lot of issues we have been discussing over the past few days. Has this been discussed before?

My initial reaction is , as it was when I read details of some of DC's arrest complaints, which I am including for completeness:
Prosecutors: Chauvin knelt on 14-year-old boy’s back

I would really recommend (MO) watching this clip in it's entirety. Remember, you can speed YouTube videos up by using the settings feature (looks like a gear cog)

Chauvin, as a small man has a problem with men taller than him, even if they are fourteen years old. I must make him feel inadequate if boys at 14 are taller and bigger than him.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hadn't noticed this before. If you want to see humanity in action have a look approx 1:30 in the video in this article to see how DC 'helps' get an almost dead GF off the pavement. No pulse, still handcuffed .. this is the same man they called in a Code 3 on.

 

[SouthAussie]

Hadn't noticed this before. If you want to see humanity in action have a look approx 1:30 in the video in this article to see how DC 'helps' get an almost dead GF off the pavement. No pulse, still handcuffed .. this is the same man they called in a Code 3 on.

I think there is something mentally wrong with Chauvin. How can anyone treat another human being like this.

 

[sds71]

Floyd was known inside Cup Foods well before the two became inextricably linked.
"He would come in once or twice a week," owner Mahmoud Abumayyaleh told CNN. "We knew him well enough to joke around with him. He was always pleasant, always smiling, never had an issue with him..."
Of course there was an issue with him last Memorial Day, May 25, when clerk Christopher Martin looked at the $20 bill Floyd had given him and realized it was counterfeit.
That discovery set off a chain of events that still haunts Martin. One that makes him feel guilt and regret for simply doing the job he was trained to do: check for counterfeit bills. He testified in court, three miles or so north of the store, that he'd been trained it was store policy for the value of any fake bills to taken out of your paycheck.
Abumayyaleh and the other owners say they got some grief after that testimony about their store policy, which would be illegal. He told CNN they never actually docked anyone's pay, while showing a sheaf of counterfeit bills encountered in the store.
He said they hire a lot of teenagers for their first job, and try to teach them responsibility and to take their work seriously. Fake cash hurts the business and he says he just wanted employees to understand that.
It's far from the first tension felt at Cup Foods. It's found itself a focal point of love and hate. Hate for the catalyst it became in the events that led to Floyd's death. Anger for when it reopened weeks later. And love for its place in the community, a vital oasis of supplies and services at 38th and Chicago in what would be a food desert. Love, too, from far away for the teenage clerk Martin and the weight of his conscience. The store has received letters and calls of support from across the US and even further afield since his televised testimony.

Inside Cup Foods, where it seems George Floyd never left - CNN

 

[dixiegirl1035]

No. I do not. We do not know when he became short of breath, but being put into a small space and having a knee on his neck and two more on his back certainly made it 'show up'.

And once I saw the small space of where he had to sit in the back seat... I was thinking that is REALLY cramped for such a large man. I would feel very cramped in that area and want that front seat pulled up. Where are my knees, for even me, going to go? Much less than airliners.... MOO. And again in this photo is where he was pushed back against the middle MOO and he got the cut/bleeding.

MOO

There really does need to be some changes and considerations of folks MOO in these situations of being shoved face down to get in the car. Being pushed down and rolled into the car at the outset put him in a position where he perhaps had to kick and use his body to even try to get out of the back passenger seat well that we saw. MOO.

O/T... is there a thread of the most recent in the past day thread of the military guy getting pepper sprayed? I do NOT want a discussion as that is against TOS to discuss on this thread... just cannot find a link for a WS thread on this site right now and asking for just the link as I saw it last night on news.



ETA: I'm glad that they have this photo as an exhibit, for reasons I posted upthread (that jurors will only get a review of a video if dragged back to court to view without an option to pause, forward, rewind ..etc. So the need for timestamped still shots is sooooooooooooo key. Welcome to the age of digital)

 

[kittythehare]

BBM. Shortness of breath is one of the key symptoms of Covid and long term Covid effects.
And the end of May was not really early in the Covid crisis.

In fairness, fear of covid could have been a possible defense for DC, if he had maintained a distance of 6ft.. he did not, he had every reason to take his knee off... the patient/prisoner was handcuffed and they were armed and had the power to stop him , had he tried running..
Long covid was not much documented at that point though SOB (shortness of breath) was.
DC was responsible for training the rookie police, it was his job to set a good example, to illustrate methodologies of restraint, yet he threw the entire rule book out and all he demonstrated was cruelty.

He had the option to call for a bigger truck to transport the prisoner to jail for processing if the prisoner was demonstrating signs of claustrophobia, which he clearly was.
That would only have taken a minute.

He had so many options, he had his training, he knew.

 

[BritsKate]

I understand what you are saying, and again, I don't necessarily disagree.

But, looking at it through their eyes and their perspective, he was saying he couldn't breath before he was in that position on the ground.

So if he already couldn't breath before he was on the ground, why do you think that was? (was he in a panic? anxiety? the drugs? adrenaline? )

Or was he lying about not being able to breath at that point.... but then telling the truth when he actually couldn't breath when he was on the ground?

Likely all of these and even more (exertion, lingering Covid symptoms, etc). So, so much affects the heart and lungs. With Mr. Floyd though, his interaction with police becomes a lethal game of dominoes imo. Drugs could have increased heart rate and possibly also lowered respirations; anxiety and/or panic could have increased heart rate and made him feel short of breath; coronary artery disease can cause shortness of breath; prone restraint and weight on his back didn't allow his lungs to expand or filter carbon dioxide; and a rush of adrenalin, cortisol and other stress hormones could have triggered an increase of heart rate too which may have increased his breathlessness. All that time, for all the reasons above and some we may never know, his heart needed more oxygen than it could possibly receive.

I'm not trained in any speciality but I see anxiety with Mr. Floyd because I suffer from it myself. The more nervous, anxious and panicked you become, the more difficult it becomes to breathe. I'd expect a long-time officer to recognize potential symptoms of a panic attack and not exacerbate such an attack but jmo and fwiw.

Yes, but he said hyperventilating is different from not being able to breathe. He also said a person having trouble breathing can be talking one minute but 10 seconds later they could be dead.

Not sure many people understand just how literal this is. While in hospital I stopped breathing twice. I went from conscious, breathing and even speaking to being put on life support just minutes later.

(On the bright side, I am now rocking a pretty badass tracheostomy scar in the shape of a heart. Silver linings and all. )

 

[mickey2942]

I don't think that anyone expects LEO to have the same knowledge as physicians or know the effects of Covid-19. After all, there are still people who believe that "Covid-19" is "flu".

But if a guy says he "can't breathe", let him sit up. Something.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Likely all of these and even more (exertion, lingering Covid symptoms, etc). So, so much affects the heart and lungs. With Mr. Floyd though, his interaction with police becomes a lethal game of dominoes imo. Drugs could have increased heart rate and possibly also lowered respirations; anxiety and/or panic could have increased heart rate and made him feel short of breath; coronary artery disease can cause shortness of breath; prone restraint and weight on his back didn't allow his lungs to expand or filter carbon dioxide; and a rush of adrenalin, cortisol and other stress hormones could have triggered an increase of heart rate too which may have increased his breathlessness. All that time, for all the reasons above and some we may never know, his heart needed more oxygen than it could possibly receive.

I'm not trained in any speciality but I see anxiety with Mr. Floyd because I suffer from it myself. The more nervous, anxious and panicked you become, the more difficult it becomes to breathe. I'd expect a long-time officer to recognize potential symptoms of a panic attack and not exacerbate such an attack but jmo and fwiw.


Not sure many people understand just how literal this is. While in hospital I stopped breathing twice. I went from conscious, breathing and even speaking to being put on life support just minutes later.

(On the bright side, I am now rocking a pretty badass tracheostomy scar in the shape of a heart. Silver linings and all. )

My city has Smart911.com.

As a "privileged person" I have in my automatically seen by the call taker conditions for LE to take into consideration. All three are breathing and touching issues in case I'm ever confronted with LE/emergency.

Perhaps not relevant to the "case" in hand... but just a shout out of having for any on us if ever 911 is called... they know from our cell phone what are our contacts, our medical conditions, know where to enter a house, where the gas and electric shut off are and so more... 2 of the three that I have.. related to THIS CASE... are issues I have as to breathing and touching me.

MOO

ETA: I think that smart911.com is very good, but not many jurisdictions have.. more are to now communicate.. yet many folks have no idea to do such.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Again today... as previous days... I still see that the entire thread has accepted that the bottom charge is generally accepted... and only the top two charges are now even being discussed?

Am I correct in this thinking... or "like" this post if you don't even think the bottom charge is where you are landing right now, and at this moment... not even guilty of the bottom charge of negligence.

 

[kittythehare]

Again today... as previous days... I still see that the entire thread has accepted that the bottom charge is generally accepted... and only the top two charges are now even being discussed?

Am I correct in this thinking... or "like" this post if you don't even think the bottom charge is where you are landing right now, and at this moment... not even guilty of the bottom charge of negligence.

Dixie,will you relist them please, if you don't mind?

 

[sds71]

Any good defense attorney has to try and “take what you can get,” Brandt said. “Sometimes we say in a trial, you want to throw as much mud on the wall as you can and hope some of it sticks.”

Nelson, 46, handles cases ranging from drunken driving arrests to homicides, and is one of a dozen attorneys who take turns working with a police union legal defense fund to represent officers charged with crimes. One of his bigger cases involved Amy Senser, the wife of Joe Senser, a former Minnesota Vikings tight end, who was convicted in a 2011 hit-and-run death.

Nelson has joked with witnesses at times and, perhaps to connect with the jury, made light of his occasional fumbles with technology or mispronunciations of words. He's a Minnesota native who, during a break in the trial, chatted up Police Chief Medaria Arradondo, asking whether he remembered the fight song for Minneapolis Roosevelt — the high school both attended.
For Chauvin’s trial attorney, it’s all about raising doubt - The Boston Globe

 

[missy1974]

I just came across this on YouTube.

This is Judge Cahill ruling on admissibility of evidence, that covers a lot of issues we have been discussing over the past few days. Has this been discussed before?

My initial reaction is , as it was when I read details of some of DC's arrest complaints, which I am including for completeness:
Prosecutors: Chauvin knelt on 14-year-old boy’s back

I would really recommend (MO) watching this clip in it's entirety. Remember, you can speed YouTube videos up by using the settings feature (looks like a gear cog)

So the paramedic that looked at GF in 2019 can testify about what kind of drugs, how much, and timing of taking those drugs, and that GF's BP was 216/162.

Thoughts on the 216/162 blood pressure? I know it's extremely high, and if it was myself or family member, I'd be going to a doc immediately, but I know we have professionals or lots here with personal experience, so looking for others thoughts?

And we are sure it was untreated BP? I don't recall any drugs in his system that indicate that he was taking any kind of prescribed medications for high blood pressure.

 

[BUF]

The charges Chauvin faces with descriptions are listed in here:

Here's what to know about the Derek Chauvin trial

 

[missy1974]

Again today... as previous days... I still see that the entire thread has accepted that the bottom charge is generally accepted... and only the top two charges are now even being discussed?

Am I correct in this thinking... or "like" this post if you don't even think the bottom charge is where you are landing right now, and at this moment... not even guilty of the bottom charge of negligence.

I've read the charges, more than once, but I'm trying to wait to decide where I would fall in the end. The defense hasn't even started their case, yet were able to make some very good and valid points with the prosecution witnesses. Will we see the same with State and defense witnesses? possibly.

The way I am feeling right now ... I think it may come down to closing arguments. JMO

Where can I find the proposed jury instructions??? I know I have read them in the past few weeks, but searched the media thread and don't see them? TIA

 

[Cubby]

Any good defense attorney has to try and “take what you can get,” Brandt said. “Sometimes we say in a trial, you want to throw as much mud on the wall as you can and hope some of it sticks.”

Nelson, 46, handles cases ranging from drunken driving arrests to homicides, and is one of a dozen attorneys who take turns working with a police union legal defense fund to represent officers charged with crimes. One of his bigger cases involved Amy Senser, the wife of Joe Senser, a former Minnesota Vikings tight end, who was convicted in a 2011 hit-and-run death.

Nelson has joked with witnesses at times and, perhaps to connect with the jury, made light of his occasional fumbles with technology or mispronunciations of words. He's a Minnesota native who, during a break in the trial, chatted up Police Chief Medaria Arradondo, asking whether he remembered the fight song for Minneapolis Roosevelt — the high school both attended.
For Chauvin’s trial attorney, it’s all about raising doubt - The Boston Globe

So, is the police union paying the entire cost of the defense?

And the 27 million? How much of that is the union paying?

I'm so tired of people like Chauvin...... This trial isn't going to be over quick enough for me. I'm ready for Chauvin to get the consequences for his actions. Then maybe he'll reap what he's sewn and have three inmates sit on and kneel on him for 9 plus minutes.

I'm ready to move onto the trials for the remaining officers.

 

[sds71]

I've read the charges, more than once, but I'm trying to wait to decide where I would fall in the end. The defense hasn't even started their case, yet were able to make some very good and valid points with the prosecution witnesses. Will we see the same with State and defense witnesses? possibly.

The way I am feeling right now ... I think it may come down to closing arguments. JMO

Where can I find the proposed jury instructions??? I know I have read them in the past few weeks, but searched the media thread and don't see them? TIA

ProposedJuryInstructions02082021.pdf (mncourts.gov)

StateProposedJuryInstructions02082021.pdf (mncourts.gov)

the state is opposing the instructions:
Memorandum03102021.pdf (mncourts.gov)

 

[Legally Bland]

I've read the charges, more than once, but I'm trying to wait to decide where I would fall in the end. The defense hasn't even started their case, yet were able to make some very good and valid points with the prosecution witnesses. Will we see the same with State and defense witnesses? possibly.

The way I am feeling right now ... I think it may come down to closing arguments. JMO

Where can I find the proposed jury instructions??? I know I have read them in the past few weeks, but searched the media thread and don't see them? TIA

State:
https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/me...646/StateProposedJuryInstructions02082021.pdf

Defense:
https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/me...20-12646/ProposedJuryInstructions02082021.pdf

Defense doesn't include instructions for the reinstated 3rd degree murder.