George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[Rhozwen]

Two women testified about this pills. I can't remember which said what, but I think at least one partial pill was too little to be tested. I can't remember about the one with red in it if they were able to test it. But they did talk about each one they found, and there was blood on that seat, so I'm guessing some blood was on the partial pill. My guess only.

Thank you. I completely missed that there was a pill remnant found as well. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter, but I do like to have the facts straight. I was able to find a media video that shows the evidence photos showing the pill and the fragment in the police car. I found it interesting to see and will post the link if others want to see as well.

Derek Chauvin Trial: Testimony Turns To Pills Found At Scene

 

[wasnt_me]

Pretty sure there were a few yellow evidence markers on the back seat of 320 with what looked like white residue deposits to me. I suppose I assumed it was like from a moist partially disolved tablet moving during the struggle in the car and eventually ending up in the footwell of the police car but JMO.

Yes. I will completely agree with that description of the pill residue.

 

[Rhozwen]

Tami is a reporter for USA TODAY and she was trying to speak with the family member.
I don’t know which one.

THANK YOU! I knew this was your post, but haven't sorted out how to include usernames to alert the poster. So the @latams is the reporter's name on twitter that approached the Floyd family member?
That's rather insensitive for her to do that, IMHO.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes. I will completely agree with that description of the pill residue.

That makes sense. When I first read it they described it as "pill fragments" with Floyd's DNA so I was imagining several pieces.

 

[CrimeAway]

Ingestion would be when the body has absorbed it. So I would think the next question is how long it takes the stomach to dissolve and absorb the drug.

Respectfully, I do not consider that to be an accurate medical definition, IMO.

Ingestion refers to the taking in of a substance orally (by mouth).

ingestion

Drug absortbtion CAN begin in the mouth IMO, and in fact there are transmucosal and orally absorbable prescription versions of fentanyl and amphetamine (though none that I have found for methamphetamine, probably due to its limited market as a commonly prescribed drug).

Fentanyl: MedlinePlus Drug Information

Adzenys XR-ODT (Amphetamine Extended-release Orally Disintegrating Tablets): Uses, Dosage, Side Effects, Interactions, Warning

Oral mucosal drug delivery: clinical pharmacokinetics and therapeutic applications - PubMed

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Talking heads on court tv saying one of the pool reporters overhead defense being asked if the next witness is in town. And they replied yes he is. So maybe it’s not Chauvin tomorrow.

There was a submission to the court yesterday re a toxocologist from Miami Dade. Perhaps it is him.

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgo...7-CR-20-12646/DiscoveryDisclosure04132021.pdf
Dr. Gary Kunsman

Oh!! ETA nevermind as I'm just getting to end of testimony for the day and the judge referred to next witness as a HER.

 

[wasnt_me]

Respectfully, I do not consider that to be an accurate medical definition, IMO.

Ingestion refers to the taking in of a substance orally (by mouth).

ingestion

Drug absortbtion CAN begin in the mouth IMO, and in fact there are transmucosal and orally absorbable prescription versions of fentanyl and amphetamine (though none that I have found for methamphetamine, probably due to its limited market as a commonly prescribed drug).

Fentanyl: MedlinePlus Drug Information

Adzenys XR-ODT (Amphetamine Extended-release Orally Disintegrating Tablets): Uses, Dosage, Side Effects, Interactions, Warning


Oral mucosal drug delivery: clinical pharmacokinetics and therapeutic applications - PubMed

BMM. What you have written is exactly what I said ingestion means. We have had follow-up discussion that absorption can start in the in the mouth, so I still do not see the disagreement that ingestion is absorption. I did make the assumption that it would start absorbing in the stomach after he swallowed it, but we have discussed that it could have started in the mouth.

So how is that not accurate?

 

[CrimeAway]

I think we can conclude that what the toxicology report says is what GF ingested and metabolized.

Not when the stomach contents were not fully studied, IMO.

 

[wasnt_me]

Not when the stomach contents were not fully studied, IMO.

Does the autopsy report say that the ME did not fully examine the stomach contents in this case? Did someone testify that the stomach contents were not fully examined in this case? Can drugs affect a person if they have not yet been absorbed by the victim?

If so, then I will agree with that. I think that's a given that an incomplete report isn't as reliable.

It's my understanding and please correct it if it's wrong, but you have to absorb a drug into the blood stream for it to have affect. And the autopsy does not say he has unabsorbed, undigested, dissolved, or however we phrase it, pills in his stomach.

 

[SouthAussie]

There was a submission to the court yesterday re a toxocologist from Miami Dade. Perhaps it is him.

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgo...7-CR-20-12646/DiscoveryDisclosure04132021.pdf
Dr. Gary Kunsman

Sounds as if the defense is going to lean heavily on drug use as the primary cause of death.
They don't seem to be swaying toward heart/artery blockage or similar, as their main source of defense.
Nor do they seem to be swaying toward "crowd intimidation" as a main contributor.

"Don't do drugs, kids".

Fortunately, it sounds as if there is going to be a state rebuttal. So this defense testimony - for whatever its worth - is not going to be the last testimony sitting in jurors ears and minds.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Not when the stomach contents were not fully studied, IMO.

ITTA. I used to be prescribed Xanax and I was instructed by my psychiatrist to let it (as well as other medications) dissolve under my tongue or even crush it and mix it in a bottle of water. It was supposed to “kick in” quicker. I was thinking GF possibly did something similar. Hypothetical, I know. But since no traces were found in his stomach my main question was this: If he did let part of it dissolve in his mouth, what would typically be visible in the contents of the stomach? Anything? Would it have dissolved enough to not be visible but still not “absorbed” enough to show up in his blood stream? ETA: Or have an effect on him.

It’s kind of confusing and not all that relevant. I just can’t figure out why the prosecution, at least, would not have wanted the contents of his stomach tested more thoroughly. We’ve heard a lot of testimony about the drugs. This seems like an oversight. (JMO)

 

[MadMcGoo]

Does the autopsy report say that the ME did not fully examine the stomach contents in this case? Did someone testify that the stomach contents were not fully examined in this case? Can drugs affect a person if they have not yet been absorbed by the victim?

If so, then I will agree with that. I think that's a given that an incomplete report isn't as reliable.

It's my understanding and please correct it if it's wrong, but you have to absorb a drug into the blood stream for it to have affect. And the autopsy does not say he has unabsorbed pills in his stomach.

RBBM. That’s my question too.

 

[CrimeAway]

Yes, when they said "pill fragments," it made it sound like there could have been several pills. Now it turns out the picture of the pill that looks whole was the only one. He may not have ingested any at all during the arrest.
Imo

Of course, we cannot be exactly sure if, or how much of the pills did consume.

However, the pills from the Mercedes SUV, were approximately 0.397g each (ex 48)
This was testified to last week.

The sum total of the fragments recovered from squad car 320 weighed about 0.297g [0.269g (ex51), 0.019g (ex52), and <0.01g, so I used 0.009g (ex53)].
If we assume that the pills were at least similar in original weight, that could leave us with 0.100g missing.
Both the BCA (Giles) and NMS (Susan Neith?) scientists testified that the pills were around 1% fentanyl.

1% of 0.100g = 0.001g = 1,000 mcg fentanyl, that is possibly missing, and possibly ingested.

Not an insignificant dose, IMO.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Sounds as if the defense is going to lean heavily on drug use as the primary cause of death.
They don't seem to be swaying toward heart/artery blockage or similar, as their main source of defense.
Nor do they seem to be swaying toward "crowd intimidation" as a main contributor.

"Don't do drugs, kids".

Fortunately, it sounds as if there is going to be a state rebuttal. So this defense testimony - for whatever its worth - is not going to be the last testimony sitting in jurors ears and minds.

I did an ETA as I was just finishing up today's testimony, and the judge referred to the next witness as "her".... and since Gary is a guy it doesn't appear it will be the person I noted... (hahahaha! I had a college friend from Unadilla Georgia and HER name WAS Gary! )

 

[wasnt_me]

ITTA. I used to be prescribed Xanax and I was instructed by my psychiatrist to let it (as well as other medications) dissolve under my tongue or even crush it and mix it in a bottle of water. It was supposed to “kick in” quicker. I was thinking GF possibly did something similar. Hypothetical, I know. But since no traces were found in his stomach my main question was this: If he did let part of it dissolve in his mouth, what would typically be visible in the contents of the stomach? Anything? Would it have dissolved enough to not be visible but still not “absorbed” enough to show up in his blood stream?

It’s kind of confusing and not all that relevant. I just can’t figure out why the prosecution, at least, would not have wanted the contents of his stomach tested more thoroughly. We’ve heard a lot of testimony about the drugs. This seems like an oversight. (JMO)

Okay, You're talking faster absorption into the blood stream, which is picked up by toxicology. I'm confused by why pills that have not been absorbed into the bloodstream matter -- pills that aren't even present in his stomach.

 

[Wild Rose]

Monoxide in his blood continues to point to the absolute fact IMO that there was no reassessment of the scene by DC. 1. He yanked him out of the car streetside. Safety of other motorists and detained individual not reassessed at all. 2. Drags him over to the back of the car in a prone position with his head toward an exhaust pipe while still streetside. Does not reassess. 3. GF cries with breathing trouble. Does not reassess. 4. Places entire weight on GF's neck, GF voices distressing breathing difficulties, other officers speak concerns. Does not reassess. 5. Various concerned citizens plead for DC to reassess. Does not reassess. 6. Fellow city employee voices qualified concerns, offers to medically intervene on a dying man. Does not reassess. 7. Local youth witnessing distressed man. Does not reassess. 8. Bystanders he is familiar with, voice concerns. He does not reassess. 9. Fellow officer finds no pulse. Does not reassess. 10. On duty EMTs arrive, DC does not get off GF's neck. He does not reassess.

 

[wasnt_me]

Of course, we cannot be exactly sure if, or how much of the pills did consume.

However, the pills from the Mercedes SUV, were approximately 0.397g each (ex 48)
The sum total of the fragments recovered from squad car 320 weighed about 0.297g [0.269g (ex51), 0.019g (ex52), and <0.01g, so I used 0.009g (ex53)].
If we assume that the pills were at least similar in original weight, that could leave us with 0.100g missing.
Both the BCA (Giles) and NMS (Susan Neith?) scientists testified that the pills were around 1% fentanyl.

1% of 0.100g = 0.001g = 1,000 mcg fentanyl, that is possibly missing, and possibly ingested.

Not an insignificant dose, IMO.

Except you can't assume anything because they testified that these speedball pills are not all created equally. Literally. And we don't know if he absorbed 1, 2, 3, or zero. I'm sure even sure they are all the same pills, either.

 

[SouthAussie]

ITTA. I used to be prescribed Xanax and I was instructed by my psychiatrist to let it (as well as other medications) dissolve under my tongue or even crush it and mix it in a bottle of water. It was supposed to “kick in” quicker. I was thinking GF possibly did something similar. Hypothetical, I know. But since no traces were found in his stomach my main question was this: If he did let part of it dissolve in his mouth, what would typically be visible in the contents of the stomach? Anything? Would it have dissolved enough to not be visible but still not “absorbed” enough to show up in his blood stream?

It’s kind of confusing and not all that relevant. I just can’t figure out why the prosecution, at least, would not have wanted the contents of his stomach tested more thoroughly. We’ve heard a lot of testimony about the drugs. This seems like an oversight. (JMO)

I would imagine that the state doesn't care too much about the stomach contents - other than what the ME has stated - because it is obvious from every state expert that positional asphyxiation, lack of oxygen, a knee on the neck and bodyweight on the lungs, was the cause of death.
It is just playing into the defense game.

Why waste time focussing on something that is not relevant, when the state can prove from a multitude of witness testimony that George was asphyxiated.

 

[CrimeAway]

Does the autopsy report say that the ME did not fully examine the stomach contents in this case? Did someone testify that the stomach contents were not fully examined in this case? Can drugs affect a person if they have not yet been absorbed by the victim?

If so, then I will agree with that. I think that's a given that an incomplete report isn't as reliable.

It's my understanding and please correct it if it's wrong, but you have to absorb a drug into the blood stream for it to have affect. And the autopsy does not say he has unabsorbed, undigested, dissolved, or however we phrase it, pills in his stomach.

It has been stated by Dr Baker that the stomach contents were not sent for toxicological analysis.

I don't have the time stamps to hand, but I will add them

This point was also raised by Mr Nelson, in his questioning of Dr Fowler today.

 

[CrimeAway]

I would imagine that the state doesn't care too much about the stomach contents - other than what the ME has stated - because it is obvious from every state expert that positional asphyxiation, lack of oxygen, a knee on the neck and bodyweight on the lungs, was the cause of death.
It is just playing into the defense game.

Why waste time focussing on something that is not relevant, when the state can prove from a multitude of witness testimony that George was asphyxiated.

Of course the STATE doesn't care about the analysis of the stomach contents, because if that had been done, and evidence of further drugs found, it could provide evidence for the defense position and introduce reasonable doubt, IMO