George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[missy1974]

I assume that's after it's digested, dissolved and absorbed into the blood stream from the stomach. It takes time for pills to dissolve in the stomach.

here is the testimony I was referring to, if it doesn't cue up to the right time it's at 30:53.

Nelson: now in your report you wrote that you would expect the peak respiratory depression to occur from fentanyl within five
minutes of ingestion?
Toobin: Right

 

[Legally Bland]

FAO @Katerz
Witness list is here, but there's 16 expert witnesses on there, so I don't think it will help.

https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/WitnessList02082021.pdf

 

[wasnt_me]

here is the testimony I was referring to, if it doesn't cue up to the right time it's at 30:53.

Nelson: now in your report you wrote that you would expect the peak respiratory depression to occur from fentanyl within five
minutes of ingestion?
Toobin: Right

Ingestion would be when the body has absorbed it. So I would think the next question is how long it takes the stomach to dissolve and absorb the drug.

 

[Katerz]

FAO @Katerz
Witness list is here, but there's 16 expert witnesses on there, so I don't think it will help.

https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/WitnessList02082021.pdf

Dang. Thank you! Grrr lol I’m nosy and need to know

 

[ElizaKate]

Ingestion would be when the body has absorbed it. So I would think the next question is how long it takes the stomach to dissolve and absorb the drug.

Only the toxicology results matter IMO but...

• TIME COURSE: Peak analgesia occurs within several minutes of intravenous (IV) administration. The duration of analgesia is 30 to 60 minutes after a single dose of up to 100 µg. Dermal exposure to fentanyl results in absorption over hours to days. Oral exposure occurs in two phases. Initial exposure will occur within in a few minutes, with absorption through the intestinal tract occurring over 2 hours. Inhalation of fentanyl results in rapid absorption.

CDC - The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Incapacitating Agent: FENTANYL - NIOSH.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

here is the testimony I was referring to, if it doesn't cue up to the right time it's at 30:53.

Nelson: now in your report you wrote that you would expect the peak respiratory depression to occur from fentanyl within five
minutes of ingestion?
Toobin: Right

I like it when a State's witness helps prove the defense theory. JMO

 

[MadMcGoo]

I really wish the prosecution would have saved Dr. Tobin for the last.

 

[missy1974]

Ingestion would be when the body has absorbed it. So I would think the next question is how long it takes the stomach to dissolve and absorb the drug.

I respectfully disagree.

If you continue to listen to that testimony, Dr. Toobin explains more. start at 33:06 and Nelson also gives times and when the peak respirations would have been and the doc agrees.

 

[ElizaKate]

I like it when a State's witness helps prove the defense theory. JMO

And yet, even the defense's retired ME witness didn't cite drugs as the cause of death.

 

[kittythehare]

here is the testimony I was referring to, if it doesn't cue up to the right time it's at 30:53.

Nelson: now in your report you wrote that you would expect the peak respiratory depression to occur from fentanyl within five
minutes of ingestion?
Toobin: Right

Some may be absorbed in the mouth through the mucosa.
(I've not specifically checked Fentanyl in this regard and because it was probably a street drug it would not have been manufactured to the same standards as a licensed pharmaceutical drug)

 

[BritsKate]

here is the testimony I was referring to, if it doesn't cue up to the right time it's at 30:53.

Nelson: now in your report you wrote that you would expect the peak respiratory depression to occur from fentanyl within five
minutes of ingestion?
Toobin: Right

If Tobin means 5 minutes from the time of swallowing, doesn't that mean Mr. Floyd was well beyond the 'danger zone' for depressed respiration because the fentanyl was already in his bloodstream as opposed to undigested pills? It takes 30 minutes for 90% of a tablet to dissolve in stomach acid, on average. And either way, no coma kinda nixes a fentanyl OD. JMO

 

[wasnt_me]

I respectfully disagree.

If you continue to listen to that testimony, Dr. Toobin explains more. start at 33:06 and Nelson also gives times and when the peak respirations would have been and the doc agrees.

After it's ingested. I don't see what the disagreement is.

 

[MsBetsy]

I respectfully disagree.

If you continue to listen to that testimony, Dr. Toobin explains more. start at 33:06 and Nelson also gives times and when the peak respirations would have been and the doc agrees.

I think Dr. Tobin was talking in general terms. That would occur in any patient or person who has taken too much of the drug. It doesn't necessarily mean that person is going to suffer from an overdose in the next five minutes. Imo

 

[Rhozwen]

I have been waiting for sidebar to ask this question. I will copy/paste the comment posted because I don't know how to quote from a closed thread. This was tweeted yesterday and I don't know who this is referring to as I don't use twitter enough to know how to find out. Does anyone know any more info about this? Who was trying to speak to a Floyd family member?

This was posted in the trial day 12 thread :

@deenafaywinter:
From pool reporter: "There is a new person in Chauvin's seat, another different woman of Asian descent. She's wearing a white shirt, grey blazer, black pants and plastic framed black glasses. She is not the woman from yesterday. She *could* be Chauvin's wife."


@shawnarchen:

Press pool from Chauvin trial:
@latams
tries to speak with the person in Floyd's family seat during recess. Deputy comes out, looms over her and yells: "If you speak to anyone ever again in the courtroom you will be removed from the courtroom and media center per Judge Cahill."

Tami Abdollah@latams:

I was pretty shocked.

 

[Katerz]

And yet, even the defense's retired ME witness didn't cite drugs as the cause of death.

Nope he tried to say carbon monoxide played a role!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

And yet, even the defense's retired ME witness didn't cite drugs as the cause of death.

The drugs were a contributing factor. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Some may be absorbed in the mouth through the mucosa.
(I've not specifically checked Fentanyl in this regard and because it was probably a street drug it would not have been manufactured to the same standards as a licensed pharmaceutical drug)

Right, like nitroglycerin. I think it works almost right away, it doesn't go into the stomach, it doesn't have to wait until it's digested and absorbed in the stomach and intestines. Most manufactured pills have different properties, slow/fast acting, etc. These were street made/illicit drugs too, so there is an 'unknown' factor as well.

 

[wasnt_me]

I think Dr. Tobin was talking in general terms. That would occur in any patient or person who has taken too much of the drug. It doesn't necessarily mean that person is going to suffer from an overdose in the next five minutes. Imo

I went back and listened to what the poster asked me to, and it was a hypothetical. Nelson said the pills were "hypothetically" in GF's mouth at 7:18pm.

Tobin still answered that, if ingested at that time, it would be 5 minutes. So you still have to have GF swallow and INGEST the pills. I'd say look up how long it takes the stomach to INGEST that drug, cause I don't know. If it takes the stomach 15 minutes to ingest, then I'd say add 15 minutes to what he said.

The term "Ingested" is significant here. We don't even know if GF ingested anything. The whole thing is a hypothetical.

 

[ElizaKate]

The drugs were a contributing factor. JMO

I don't disagree. However the charges aren't concerned with contributing factors, they're concerned with causal factors.

From proposed jury instructions - "The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability."

 

[missy1974]

If Tobin means 5 minutes from the time of swallowing, doesn't that mean Mr. Floyd was well beyond the 'danger zone' for depressed respiration because the fentanyl was already in his bloodstream as opposed to undigested pills? It takes 30 minutes for 90% of a tablet to dissolve in stomach acid, on average. And either way, no coma kinda nixes a fentanyl OD. JMO

I have A LOT of questions to be honest lol I want to know if the pill partially dissolved in his mouth, is that even reflected in the blood results? I don't think street fentanyl is made to be absorbed 30 minutes later? maybe someone else can answer these questions, because IMO the State spent more time trying to convince everyone that it wasn't even there, that they didn't address these questions at all.

IMO I think what the defense is saying that the drugs contributed to the death, not that it was the cause.