George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[GarAndTeed]

Interesting article on Jerry Blackwell:
<snip>
ST. PAUL, Minn. (CN) — A black man who served as a scapegoat for a lynch mob in 1920 received Minnesota’s first-ever posthumous pardon Friday, 100 years after his conviction was used to justify the murder of three of his co-workers.

After a mob lynched three black circus workers in the northern industrial center of Duluth on June 15, 1920, their co-worker Max Mason was arrested and tried for the rape of a white woman, Irene Tusken.

Jerry Blackwell, of the Minneapolis firm Blackwell Burke, argued to Minnesota’s pardon board Friday that the rape was fictitious and Mason had been arrested to grant legitimacy to the killings.<snip>
A Century Later, Minnesota Pardons Black Man in Case Tied to Lynchings

 

[Boodles]

I’m becoming a little confused at this point TBH.

Today’s testimony created some reasonable doubt for me. I’ll leave it at that and return to the Unidentified forum.

Peace and Love! Be kind to one another.

I must ask. What is your doubt? What do you think caused his death?

 

[CrimeAway]

But we'd be talking seconds to get to the toe? Minutes? Hours? It's just me, but I'd think the person taking the blood at autopsy knows the best place to take it for optimal results, and if the drug has not been absorbed through the stomach, I have yet to hear how it affects a person just sitting there, waiting on absorption.

The blood used for toxicology in Mr Floyd's case, was (IIRC) antemortem blood taken at the hospital (source Dr Baker's Autopsy report, specifically the Toxicology section).

I have personally seen IV drugs take tens of minutes to have full effect in cases of significant cardiac disease. It really depends on so many factors IMO

 

[In vino veritas]

I concede that we do not know how much, if any fentanyl and/or methamphetamine Mr Floyd ingested/chewed/swallowed/was affected by during the course of his arrest. If the stomach contents had been sent for toxicology, and if Mr Hall had been willing to (truthfully) testify to his knowledge of the pills found in the Mercedes SUV, (source, type, number etc.), then these matters might have been further elucidated for us, and more importantly, the (awake) members of the jury. (All MOO).

However, I would like to clarify that fentanyl is a very potent narcotic. 1 pill, or 1% strength does not seem much, but in the context of fentanyl, I think it is important to remember that it is a drug that is therapeutically prescribed in MICROgrams (mcg) or 1 millionth of a gram (MOO)

Micrograms to Grams conversion

Despite prosecution’s experts testimony to the contrary, I do believe that the drugs in GF’s system, documented by the tox report, did contribute to the cardiopulmonary arrest, and, ultimately, GFs death. I say this because of the foaming at the mouth evident in the earlier part of the arrest. Admittedly, I haven’t watched all the testimony of this trial and am not sure how much focus there was on the mouth foaming. But typically, this is a symptom of drug usage/ OD, seizures or rabies.
This said, DC was absolutely negligent and wanton in his disregard for responsibility toward his charge.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I must ask. What is your doubt? What do you think caused his death?

I’m really not sure. Several things could have at this point. I’m trying to understand the charges better also as they differ a little from the ones in my state that I’m more familiar with. I think, hopefully, I’ll be able to answer better once I hear the final jury instructions.

 

[MsBetsy]

Of course, we cannot be exactly sure if, or how much of the pills did consume.

However, the pills from the Mercedes SUV, were approximately 0.397g each (ex 48)
This was testified to last week.

The sum total of the fragments recovered from squad car 320 weighed about 0.297g [0.269g (ex51), 0.019g (ex52), and <0.01g, so I used 0.009g (ex53)].
If we assume that the pills were at least similar in original weight, that could leave us with 0.100g missing.
Both the BCA (Giles) and NMS (Susan Neith?) scientists testified that the pills were around 1% fentanyl.

1% of 0.100g = 0.001g = 1,000 mcg fentanyl, that is possibly missing, and possibly ingested.

Not an insignificant dose, IMO.

I think it's impossible to know whether it was a significant dose for Floyd because we don't know what his tolerance was at the time. He also might have been taking suboxone during the times he wasn't taking other opiates, since a film was found in the vehicle. Imo

 

[wasnt_me]

The blood used for toxicology in Mr Floyd's case, was (IIRC) antemortem blood taken at the hospital (source Dr Baker's Autopsy report, specifically the Toxicology section).

I have personally seen IV drugs take tens of minutes to have full effect in cases of significant cardiac disease. It really depends on so many factors IMO

Then again, the question is how unabsorbed drugs in the stomach tie in to anything. If they have not been absorbed into the bloodstream, how are they affecting a person? I've been reading and I see so far that if it's not absorbed, you didn't get any of it, and it just passes out in poop or urine.

 

[CrimeAway]

Then again, the question is how unabsorbed drugs in the stomach tie in to anything.

Reasonable Doubt

 

[wasnt_me]

Reasonable Doubt

"Reasonable" doubt that the knee on the neck for nine minutes and the refusal to roll to the side into recovery and the refusal to provide CPR was a negligent and wreckless act that majorly contributed to GF's death?

I can't agree that it is a reasonable doubt about what might be in the stomach that IS NOT abosrbed into the blood and not affecting GF when the charges are as they are. You can have doubt, but it has to reasonably overcome the charge. It can't be any doubt.

But I'd still like to know. How is it reasonable doubt when whatever drug might be in the stomach has not be absorbed into the blood stream? How do unabsorbed pills affect a person?

 

[MsBetsy]

Does the autopsy report say that the ME did not fully examine the stomach contents in this case? Did someone testify that the stomach contents were not fully examined in this case? Can drugs affect a person if they have not yet been absorbed by the victim?

If so, then I will agree with that. I think that's a given that an incomplete report isn't as reliable.

It's my understanding and please correct it if it's wrong, but you have to absorb a drug into the blood stream for it to have affect. And the autopsy does not say he has unabsorbed, undigested, dissolved, or however we phrase it, pills in his stomach.

Yes, if there were any pill fragments found in his stomach than I think it would not have taken affect.

 

[In vino veritas]

I am 100% for minimum third degree given less than one year ago he was ready to plead that charge. To me that says he knew at that time and now that he needs to pay for what he did. I would have no problem with 2nd but will take 3rd which means we are back to where we were in the first place. Crazy.

It will be incredibly ironic if he does NOT get the 3rd degree murder conviction and gets manslaughter instead. AG Barr refused to go with the plea deal because he did not think it would satisfy the mob mentality, given that people were screaming for the death penalty before the facts of the case were fully known.

 

[Gibbo214]

It will be incredibly ironic if he does NOT get the 3rd degree murder conviction and gets manslaughter instead. AG Barr refused to go with the plea deal because he did not think it would satisfy the mob mentality, given that people were screaming for the death penalty before the facts of the case were fully known.

I did not hear one person 'screaming for the death penalty'.

 

[MsBetsy]

Does anyone remember what color the suboxone wrapper was in the picture? I'm just curious what strength it was.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Reasonable Doubt

I think that there's some reasonable doubt in this case.

I'm not sure if it's enough to acquit on all charges. We will see. JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

George Floyd’s brother calls for death penalty for Derek Chauvin

But Mr Floyd’s brother, Philonise, said that wasn’t enough and is calling for all the officers involved to be arrested and charged with murder.

“They all need to be convicted of first degree murder and given the death penalty because they didn’t care about what they wanted to do with my brother. He wasn’t a person to them, he was scum, he was nothing,” Philonise told news station MSNBC.

‘Life for a life’: Floyd’s brother calls for death penalty for cops

 

[CrimeAway]

"Reasonable" doubt that the knee on the neck for nine minutes and the refusal to roll to the side into recovery and the refusal to provide CPR wasn't a negligent and wreckless act that majorly contributed to GF's death?

I can't agree that it is a reasonable doubt about what might be in the stomach that IS NOT abosrbed into the blood and not affecting GF when the charges are as they are. You can have doubt, but it has to reasonably overcome the charge. It can't be any doubt.

We have an adversarial system of justice, where one side (the prosecution) presents a theory or case, backed up by certain evidence, that they rely on to PROVE their case. The opposing party, the defense, seeks to refute certain aspects of the prosecution's case, in order to introduce the concept of "reasonable doubt." (MOO)

As far as I understand, the onus is on the state to PROVE its case. If the state cannot prove its case at all (to any reasonable jury), then the defense can request an aquittal:

Judgments of Acquittal

The defense is free to refute the prosecution's case, with facts and evidence that introduce reasonable doubt.

If someone does not agree with the system of justice, they are free (in most countries), to request and demand change.

Whilst I concede that our justice system is not perfect, what would one prefer it to be replaced with?

All MOO.

 

[wasnt_me]

I used to post on Web sleuths a LONG time ago for the Jodi Arias trial. Back then, we had what seemed like a whole forum with pages upon pages of threads, and the trial and evidence was sticky-noted at the top. Do we have anything like that now for the GF trial or are we limited to the trial and sidebar threads?

 

[Algo214]

Reasonable Doubt

All through Defense's ME's testimony I kept asking myself "define sudden please"

This to say I don't think there is reasonable doubt from his drug use, unless you could estimate to a certain degree of medical certainty (lol, learned the phrase and all) when were the drugs used, when would they have made effect and whether that effect would have been an OD. And its effect would have to have been prior to any superseding/more substantial cause of death.
The most recent and substantial cause, is the cause of death.

From all I've heard, none of those 3 (I submit random but they sound reasonable to me) criteria has been met.

 

[MsBetsy]

Despite prosecution’s experts testimony to the contrary, I do believe that the drugs in GF’s system, documented by the tox report, did contribute to the cardiopulmonary arrest, and, ultimately, GFs death. I say this because of the foaming at the mouth evident in the earlier part of the arrest. Admittedly, I haven’t watched all the testimony of this trial and am not sure how much focus there was on the mouth foaming. But typically, this is a symptom of drug usage/ OD, seizures or rabies.
This said, DC was absolutely negligent and wanton in his disregard for responsibility toward his charge.

I think that was excess saliva around his mouth. In the arrest affidavit the officer described it as a white substance around his mouth. The foam coming out of a persons mouth during an overdose is from the fluid in the lungs after the organs have started to fail. If Floyd was actually foaming at the mouth while he was sitting in the car I think he would have dropped dead before they got to the squad car. He would not be talking or walking. Imo

 

[missy1974]

Does anyone remember what color the suboxone wrapper was in the picture? I'm just curious what strength it was.

I think it says 8mg/2mg? I'm working at the moment, so can't really get a good screenshot.