GUILTY Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, British, tortured and murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 *Appeal filed 2023* #5

  • #301
I dont think the parents of both of them would ever propose an abortion.
No way!
They are devout Christians, Orthodox to be exact.
But I agree that the elopment to Portugal was to avoid intrference from both disapproving sets of parents.
When L was born C cut any relations with B's parents.
B's mother was very unhappy, she loved her granddaughter.
And she and her husband proved to be caring grandparents.
Well, sth was wrong but it is Caroline's secret.

You are correct. All parents are probably religious and would not have approved of abortion but, in that case, they would not have approved of conceiving of a baby out of wedlock either. Not sure how religious B and C were but if I had been her, I would have had an abortion in secret and nobody would have known the difference if B paid for it.

How old was C when she became pregnant? Had she left school? Did she ever work? Perhaps C wanted to become pregnant as she was so much in romantic love with B?
 
  • #302
You might be right - C seemed to be determined to have a baby.
I mean, after the miscarriage she quickly got pregnant again.
Why?
They were so young, what was the hurry?
Maybe she naively thought that the baby would cement the relationship?
 
  • #303
You might be right - C seemed to be determined to have a baby.
I mean, after the miscarriage she quickly got pregnant again.
Why?
They were so young, what was the hurry?
Maybe she naively thought that the baby would cement the relationship?

Many people (males and females) mistakenly believe that having a baby will cement a relationship. However, having a baby in the early stages of marriage is often not the best idea as a couple needs time to be together first. Having a wife pregnant and having a baby often leads to the husband straying. That is why I am open to believing that B could have had extramarital affairs as many men feel neglected once the baby arrives - especially a narcissist.
 
  • #304
In defence of B, maybe B played the field and only dated C when she was 16 and did not have a sexual relationship with her then. Maybe their sexual relationship began just before she became pregnant and then he was caught so felt obliged to marry her then.

We know that B met C when she was 14 and started flying his chopper overhead to impress her. He openly shared his relationship with her when she turned 15 in 2016 with his work colleagues at the time, as they mentioned it was strange b/c she was so young. We also know that her god brother noted that B is the one that pressured C to get pregnant. We also know that abusive men use pregnancy as a control tactic. Maybe we need to stop being patriarchal apologists and then maybe, just maybe, femicides will start to decrease.

You might be right - C seemed to be determined to have a baby.
I mean, after the miscarriage she quickly got pregnant again.
Why?
They were so young, what was the hurry?
Maybe she naively thought that the baby would cement the relationship?

Why are we placing all the baby obsession on C? She had aspirations and goals; B made her quit kick boxing, B told her she could not go back to university b/c of the baby, B moved her out to an isolated area so she couldn't even attend u part time. B was not 'young', he was 33 when he murdered his 19 year old wife. He'd already explored his potential and developed his career. C didn't even get to finish first year u. All the godfathers of her baby are still in uni, for reality's sake.

C is dead and buried and yet we are determined to blame her for this tragedy.
 
  • #305
Tayaway, I predicted that you would not agree with much of what Dotta and I said here. I agree that many men like B use pregnancy as a control strategy.

But IMO CC must have played a role in much of this otherwise she would have used birth control, told her parents she was pregnant, invited all parents to their wedding and not lied about the fact she was just going on a holiday, and so on. If she had been my daughter, there would be no way that she would not have confided in me and asked for advice. She would definitely have invited me to her wedding whether she was pregnant or not.

No man could pressure most women into becoming pregnant if they did not want to. It is very difficult to study when one has a baby. IMO C chose to have a baby rather than getting a job or going to university. Maybe she thought that she could be a stay at home mother and wife and not have to worry about work until L was older.

I am definitely not blaming CC for this tragedy but she made her choices.

The main problem, as I see it, she chose the wrong partner, did not know that he was a narcissist and that he would want to control her every movement.
 
  • #306
Tayaway, I predicted that you would not agree with much of what Dotta and I said here. I agree that many men like B use pregnancy as a control strategy.

But IMO CC must have played a role in much of this otherwise she would have used birth control, told her parents she was pregnant, invited all parents to their wedding and not lied about the fact she was just going on a holiday, and so on. If she had been my daughter, there would be no way that she would not have confided in me and asked for advice. She would definitely have invited me to her wedding whether she was pregnant or not.

No man could pressure most women into becoming pregnant if they did not want to. It is very difficult to study when one has a baby. IMO C chose to have a baby rather than getting a job or going to university. Maybe she thought that she could be a stay at home mother and wife and not have to worry about work until L was older.

I am definitely not blaming CC for this tragedy but she made her choices.

The main problem, as I see it, she chose the wrong partner, did not know that he was a narcissist and that he would want to control her every movement.

She didn't choose to be a housewife, none of the evidence supports this opinion. She wanted to be a mother and a uni student. I agree that it's difficult to go to school when you've got a baby, especially if your partner doesn't support your decision. Did she even have a clue about this reality?

Many men do pressure women to get pregnant. They even lie, sabotaging condoms. There is also rape, which happens far more often then is reported. There are women who go on the pill and don't tell their partners, b/c in the moment, those men want babies and the women don't. There are so many men out there that want to knock up their partners, but society doesn't talk about it and instead promotes the stereotype of women as baby mama leeches.

We can't force our own assumptions on her, we can only work with the evidence provided.

"I am definitely not blaming C,... but..." "She didn't strangle herself, but..." The big old 'but' of polite victim blaming. Yes, she made choices, which she later tried to rectify by telling B she wanted a divorce and confiding in a ?therapist? that she wanted to leave him, put baby L in daycare, and go back to uni (more testimony she did not want to be a stay-at-home). C, B, their two families, her friends, his friends, their neighbors, his co-workers, the dominant patriarchal society, ... they all played a part in creating this tragedy, but the 'main problem' that finished it was a man who chose to strangle his teenaged wife to death.
 
  • #307
Well, this is a forum and everybody has a right to voice the opinion.
 
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  • #308
Murdered by her husband and then, regardless of evidence, crucified by the court of public opinion. Sounds about right.
 
  • #309
Well, this is a forum and everybody has a right to voice the opinion.

Yes everybody has the right to their own opinions. However, even though I have suffered abuse from men in my life, I am not a man hater. I have learnt from my lessons in life now and moved on. Most men are not like B, thank goodness. I accept I made the wrong choices.

I also think that after someone is murdered, loved ones can transpose their own values, attitudes and aspirations for that person in hindsight.

Her father wanted her to continue with her kickboxing but did C really want to herself? Did C only decide that she wanted to go to university after she had the baby and being a stay-at-home mum was not to her liking? If she had not completed her studies at school as you said before, how was she going to get into a university in Athens? Who was going to pay for it?

But what were they all doing to help CC when she was alive? There were definitely problems there that were never resolved especially with B's parents.

Did any of them ever ask the difficult questions of C? Few had seen her since she married. Had she been honest with them? If she had been, I am sure they would all have helped her. All she needed to do was return to the island without warning B and her parents would have welcomed her home. Also she could have studied online.
 
  • #310
Her parents loved C immensely, they would have helped her and the baby.
Her mother paid!!!them money every month to ease their financial situation.

Therapist (whatever we might think of her) advised Caroline correctly.
She decided to stay with her husband although they fought bitterly.
 
  • #311
Murdered by her husband and then, regardless of evidence, crucified by the court of public opinion. Sounds about right.

How could you say that CC has been crucified by the court of public opinion if we respect CC enough to say that she made her own choices. It is not victim blaming, it is treating CC as a female capable of making those choices.

Her choices at the time would have made most females very happy about the future. She had married a handsome man who was a successful pilot whom she thought loved her unconditionally, had a romantic marriage in Portugal with a beautiful wedding dress and moved to a villa in Athens to have his child. What more could a female want?

CC wasn't to know then that B, being a narcissist, had been love bombing her. His love for her was not real. It takes a while to realise that you are with a narcissist. Her next choice should have been to realise and accept that she had made a mistake. Control is not love. She was simply too proud to tell her parents and friends about how B was treating her. If he controlled phone conversations, she could have written to them instead of just writing in her diary.
 
  • #312
Yes everybody has the right to their own opinions. However, even though I have suffered abuse from men in my life, I am not a man hater. I have learnt from my lessons in life now and moved on. Most men are not like B, thank goodness. I accept I made the wrong choices.

I also think that after someone is murdered, loved ones can transpose their own values, attitudes and aspirations for that person in hindsight.

Her father wanted her to continue with her kickboxing but did C really want to herself? Did C only decide that she wanted to go to university after she had the baby and being a stay-at-home mum was not to her liking? If she had not completed her studies at school as you said before, how was she going to get into a university in Athens? Who was going to pay for it?

But what were they all doing to help CC when she was alive? There were definitely problems there that were never resolved especially with B's parents.

Did any of them ever ask the difficult questions of C? Few had seen her since she married. Had she been honest with them? If she had been, I am sure they would all have helped her. All she needed to do was return to the island without warning B and her parents would have welcomed her home. Also she could have studied online.

There is one person who is squarely to blame for murdering C and that is B. Pointing this out does not make one a man hater. What does victim blaming say, though, about our society? As already shown by evidence from witnesses, C realized her own mistakes with B, and tried to move on, by deciding to get divorced. He didn't let her though, did he? He killed her. He confessed to it.

C was already in university when she got pregnant with baby L. She did not complete her university studies when there were pregnancy complications. She'd already been a university student and knew she wanted to go back after having baby L but B said no no no. Who would've paid for her to continue her studies at university? Her parents? They paid her rent, not B.

If only C had done A, B, and/or C, her husband wouldn't have murdered her? Really?

eta, did not see this post:

How could you say that CC has been crucified by the court of public opinion if we respect CC enough to say that she made her own choices. It is not victim blaming, it is treating CC as a female capable of making those choices.

Her choices at the time would have made most females very happy about the future. She had married a handsome man who was a successful pilot whom she thought loved her unconditionally, had a romantic marriage in Portugal with a beautiful wedding dress and moved to a villa in Athens to have his child. What more could a female want?

CC wasn't to know then that B, being a narcissist, had been love bombing her. His love for her was not real. It takes a while to realise that you are with a narcissist. Her next choice should have been to realise and accept that she had made a mistake. Control is not love. She was simply too proud to tell her parents and friends about how B was treating her. If he controlled phone conversations, she could have written to them instead of just writing in her diary.

It is victim blaming. B/c she made choices (ie this guy, marriage,...), she is dead now.

Shoulda woulda coulda is also victim blaming.

How was she to write a letter and get it to the post when she was only allowed to get a taxi with his friend? Again, this is victim blaming. She'd be alive if she did this that or the other thing. No.
 
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  • #313
Her parents loved C immensely, they would have helped her and the baby.
Her mother paid!!!them money every month to ease their financial situation.

Therapist (whatever we might think of her) advised Caroline correctly.
She decided to stay with her husband although they fought bitterly.

She did not decide to stay with him. She was planning on going to a hotel the very night he murdered her. Yes, her mother would've helped her, but as her godbrother said, she was proud, and... ashamed she was in that situation. Yes, the ?therapist? gave her good advice.
 
  • #314
Sorry I misread what you said "C didn't even get to finish first year u". I read that as Year 11 which we have in Australia and it is high school. I need a timeline on all this. Most students here in Australia finish high school at 18yo. I did not know she had already gone to university.

The only crucial mistake C made was to say too long in a marriage that was never going to work. The honeymoon was over. But she claimed she loved him to the therapist. However, the therapist advised her to leave him but the therapist did not tell her to plan her escape without telling him. The only way to leave a narcissistic controller is to escape as soon as you can. But it is difficult to do so with a baby and if you do not really understand narcissism.

Narcissism is what everybody needs to understand. I have attracted narcissists myself even female ones as friends. My parents were narcissists and I did not really know about narcissism until about 2o years ago. Society needs to be educated about narcissism.
 
  • #315
Nobody here on WS is victim blaming. How any of us could do it?????
Of course C could write a letter to her parents asking for help.
Didnt she meet her friend in the park that fateful day?
Couldnt she slip a letter to her neighbour?
Did B prohibit her to leave the house?
I think she loved her husband and decided to stay with him despite warnings from therapist.
 
  • #316
Sorry I misread what you said "C didn't even get to finish first year u". I read that as Year 11 which we have in Australia and it is high school. I need a timeline on all this. Most students here in Australia finish high school at 18yo. I did not know she had already gone to university.

The only crucial mistake C made was to say too long in a marriage that was never going to work. The honeymoon was over. But she claimed she loved him to the therapist. However, the therapist advised her to leave him but the therapist did not tell her to plan her escape without telling him. The only way to leave a narcissistic controller is to escape as soon as you can. But it is difficult to do so with a baby and if you do not really understand narcissism.

Narcissism is what everybody needs to understand. I have attracted narcissists myself even female ones as friends. My parents were narcissists and I did not really know about narcissism until about 2o years ago. Society needs to be educated about narcissism.

Sorry for the confusing shorthand.

None of the mistakes C made are responsible for her death.

Yes, society needs to provide education to the up and coming generations about mental health, relationships... knowledge is not only power, but smart economics.
 
  • #317
Nobody here on WS is victim blaming. How any of us could do it?????
Of course C could write a letter to her parents asking for help.
Didnt she meet her friend in the park that fateful day?
Couldnt she slip a letter to her neighbour?
Did B prohibit her to leave the house?
I think she loved her husband and decided to stay with him despite warnings from therapist.

Ya, she met her friend in the park, but guess what, he showed up! Even in high school, B never let her have alone time with her friends. You are victim blaming her by saying she could have gotten a letter out. If only she woulda coulda shoulda done a, b, or c, she'd be alive now. No. It does not matter what she did, he was still going to kill her. The neighbor had no idea how bad things were, and what if she said something to B? Abused partners often do not tell anyone, for many reasons.

Where is the evidence to back up your opinion that she was going to stay? All proof points to her decision to leave.
 
  • #318
Tayaway said: "If only C had done A, B, and/or C, her husband wouldn't have murdered her? Really?"

No I have not missed the point. I think you have missed the point that this whole unfortunate murder of CC is about narcissism.

Many girls who have made the same choices as CC did and even married a much older man at a young age have ended up in wonderful marriages that have lasted for years.

Caroline made the right choices if the man she married was not a controlling narcissist.
 
  • #319
Tayaway said: "If only C had done A, B, and/or C, her husband wouldn't have murdered her? Really?"

No I have not missed the point. I think you have missed the point that this whole unfortunate murder of CC is about narcissism.

Many girls who have made the same choices as CC did and even married a much older man at a young age have ended up in wonderful marriages that have lasted for years.

Caroline made the right choices if the man she married was not a controlling narcissist.

Narcissism did not kill C; Babis did.
 
  • #320
Ya, she met her friend in the park, but guess what, he showed up! Even in high school, B never let her have alone time with her friends. You are victim blaming her by saying she could have gotten a letter out. If only she woulda coulda shoulda done a, b, or c, she'd be alive now. No. It does not matter what she did, he was still going to kill her. The neighbor had no idea how bad things were, and what if she said something to B? Abused partners often do not tell anyone, for many reasons.

Where is the evidence to back up your opinion that she was going to stay? All proof points to her decision to leave.
So...
According to you nothing could be done b/c mad murderer B was on the loose?

C and her friend talked in the park for some time before B appeared.

If she wanted to run free, she could have given the letter, or just ask her friend to alarm her parents.

I think they both triggered each other fighting madly (furniture flying and destroyed), quarreling bitterly about money and family issues.

And the baby was in the middle of this war.
 

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