Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[MsBetsy]

These are exactly my thoughts for the matter.

B gave her permission to speak about his relationship with C. This off course is not legal. No one else other than C can give such a permission. IMO he may have wanted so, because here in Greece people are accusing him directly on social media. The reason is that many things from the case, that people hear from the news, don't add up. He may have thought that the opinion of EM, the so though psychologist, for the matter may have changed people's mind about him and his relationship with C. However this backlashed quickly cause they found out that she was a fraud. And two days later a pilot B (his instructor) comes forward about a "carbon" robbery.

Edit: IMO off course

Yes, many things don't add up, and of course B can say all he wants about their relationship to the media, but may have thought it would be better coming from the therapist.

So despite what the woman who claims to be a therapist has said, we really know nothing at all about their relationship or how in love they were.

However, we are not allowed to accuse him here because he's considered a victim, unless police name him as a suspect.

 

[tayaway]

Well apparently they were going to her as a couple, so the husband is not really breaching confidentiality. As far as I can tell, he said they were attending to help with the birth of their child, there were problems with the pregnancy, and the advice was helpful. I think he said they went for eight weeks so if it was once a week it was only eight sessions.

I'm not sure what they are looking to charge her with. She's accused of practicing as a therapist without a license. If she's not a legal therapist, the non-disclosure laws may not apply. I think it's more a matter of ethics.

She claims she never said she was a psychologist, and she has the proper training, so she will have to provide proof.

Imo

You'd think out of respect for his late wife, he wouldn't share any of their sessions with the public. How do her parents feel about that? I wonder too, if she's just an imposter, what kind of charge can LE give her for the confidentiality breach?

The governing board of psychologists have already established that she's not licensed nor does she have any of the education. If you go back in the thread, you'll find all the articles and discussion on it. I tried, but I gave up. Yeah...

We know she is a POI in the murder case, and she's being investigated for fraud, but I don't think the public knows more than that at this time.

ETA: I forgot to mention, yes, she has claimed in vid, text, etc... to be a real 'psychologist.' One of our Greek speaking members did a great article that outlined all that.

 

[MsBetsy]

Besides some authority gave her permission to practise, right? She didn’t practise in a clandestine way in her garage but had an office. And she paid taxes.

Yes, if she is really qualified then she is at least guilty of a breach in confidentially. I'm sure they have similar laws about that in Greece. Imo

 

[Dotta]

Yes, many things don't add up, and of course B can say all he wants about their relationship to the media, but may have thought it would be better coming from the therapist.

So despite what the woman who claims to be a therapist has said, we really know nothing at all about their relationship or how in love they were.

However, we are not allowed to accuse him here because he's considered a victim, unless police name him as a suspect.

All we can say about him is that he likes to live like a hermit haha

 

[tayaway]

Besides some authority gave her permission to practise, right? She didn’t practise in a clandestine way in her garage but had an office. And she paid taxes.

Do you have a source for that?

All we can say about him is that he likes to live like a hermit haha

Whoa now, he liked C living like a hermit, as we know from others, that she had no friends there, and he planned to move them to a more isolated area, which C didn't want - but - Babis had his own pilot career and life outside their home. He was no hermit.

 

[DeLu]

Well apparently they were going to her as a couple, so the husband is not really breaching confidentiality. As far as I can tell, he said they were attending to help with the birth of their child, there were problems with the pregnancy, and the advice was helpful. I think he said they went for eight weeks so if it was once a week it was only eight sessions.

I'm not sure what they are looking to charge her with. She's accused of practicing as a therapist without a license. If she's not a legal therapist, the non-disclosure laws may not apply. I think it's more a matter of ethics.

She claims she never said she was a psychologist, and she has the proper training, so she will have to provide proof.

Imo

B said that C had postpartum depression. And that this was the reason in the first place, that they searched for a psychologist nearby from online sites. This condition as far as I know, is not handled with couples therapy. I guess in some sessions the husband can take part, but generally the session should be private. What I'm saying here is that C may have not been treated properly for her condition in the first place IMO. Additionally, she said publicly that C was talking about buying a new house when she was getting her nails done. Practically implying that this is probably the reason the whole robbery-murder happend, because she talked to much and people are evil. And she never revealed anything about B just C. So I m not so sure if she won't be charged with breaking confidentiality apart from fraud.

«Καρολάιν και Μπάμπης ήταν πολύ αγαπημένοι, με ενοχλούν τα σενάρια», λέει η ψυχολόγος της κοπέλας

 

[Dotta]

Do you have a source for that?

No, just a common sense. In Poland if you want to open a therapy office you must have permission of authorities to do that. She didn’t operate undercover so I guess she has all necessary documents. Just my opinion.

 

[Dotta]

Do you have a source for that?



Whoa now, he liked C living like a hermit, as we know from others, that she had no friends there, and he planned to move them to a more isolated area, which C didn't want - but - Babis had his own pilot career and life outside their home. He was no hermit.

Yes - you are right

 

[tayaway]

No, just a common sense. In Poland if you want to open a therapy office you must have permission of authorities to do that. She didn’t operate undercover so I guess she has all necessary documents. Just my opinion.

No, the board of psychologists already stated that she was not a member and she did not have any of the education necessary to be in the profession.

 

[Dotta]

No, the board of psychologists already stated that she was not a member and she did not have any of the education necessary to be in the profession.

I really dont get how she managed to open a legit therapy business?????

 

[Patrick Jane]

According to media reports, B said he was unable to render assistance to save C because the alleged robbers pointed guns (a Glock and a silver revolver) at him. Does anybody know if the trainer or the trainer's wife mentioned to the MSM that guns were used in their robbery? I'm trying to understand the similarities and differences between the two alleged robberies.

 

[tayaway]

I really dont get how she managed to open a legit therapy business?????

She used the 'psychologist' label, but as @Patrick Jane pointed out, the 'diplomas' on her wall were all those online course certificates like hypnotherapy etc... She also used some university in Romania (Bucharest?) as the place where she got her so-called degree for gynecology.

Maybe she just wasn't on the officials' radar until this murder case? Out of curiosity, I always like to check the qualifications and to make sure the doc is decent, I look up patient ratings of new doctors/professionals I go to, but there are a lot of people who don't even think about the difference between a hypnotherapist or psychotherapist? Who would think that the professional is faking?

 

[Dotta]

She used the 'psychologist' label, but as @Patrick Jane pointed out, the 'diplomas' on her wall were all those online course certificates like hypnotherapy etc... She also used some university in Romania (Bucharest?) as the place where she got her so-called degree for gynecology.

Maybe she just wasn't on the officials' radar until this murder case? Out of curiosity, I always like to check the qualifications and to make sure the doc is decent, I look up patient ratings of new doctors/professionals I go to, but there are a lot of people who don't even think about the difference between a hypnotherapist or psychotherapist? Who would think that the professional is faking?

If sb wants a therapy from NHS (free treatment) one must wait looooong time as queues are enormous. Then private sessions with acclaimed psychologists/psychiatrists are SO expensive that common folks cant afford them. This is the answer that people seek alternative ways - cheaper therapists. She took advantage of this situation I guess.

 

[DeLu]

Besides some authority gave her permission to practise, right? She didn’t practise in a clandestine way in her garage but had an office. And she paid taxes.

Here in Greece you can declare yourself a freelancer and then the tax office issues you a "book" for offering services. With this book you can give receipts to people for offering your services. When you issue this book you must declare the category of your profession and the address of your office. For example I am a freelancer and I work as a researcher. So I'm under "researchers" category. However I never had to proof myself by showing my degrees to the tax office for that. This is the reason most people hang their degrees in their offices. To let their clients know their education. EM had a bunch of papers hanging on the wall behind her but they were all 15 day - 1 month seminars.

 

[tayaway]

If sb wants a therapy from NHS (free treatment) one must wait looooong time as queues are enormous. Then private sessions with acclaimed psychologists/psychiatrists are SO expensive that common folks cant afford them. This is the answer that people seek alternative ways - cheaper therapists. She took advantage of this situation I guess.

You are so right about that! It's the same here in Ontario, Canada, with years on waiting lists, underfunding, and not enough professionals.

 

[Patrick Jane]

According to media reports, B said he was unable to render assistance to save C because the alleged robbers pointed guns (a Glock and a silver revolver) at him. Does anybody know if the trainer or the trainer's wife mentioned to the MSM that guns were used in their robbery? I'm trying to understand the similarities and differences between the two alleged robberies.

These are media interviews with the trainer. I don't hear anything about guns. He talks about "wrestling/struggling" with the robbers, and the robbers overpowering them. He doesn't say that guns were pointed at them, so they were forced to comply. Other translators might want to check to see if I missed hearing the word "guns" somewhere in these videos. Also if anybody saw "guns" mentioned in a media report regarding the trainer's robbery, please post it. I'm trying to understand if these are supposed to be the same robbers in both cases, then why are they deviating from their modus operandi? In other words, 1) why were they now using guns (against B&C), when they weren't using guns before (against the trainer and his wife)? and 2) and why immediately murder C, when the trainer's wife wasn't killed? MOO

 

[Patrick Jane]

If the alleged robbers had guns, then why not murder C with the gun? Too loud? Why not murder B with the gun too and remove any witnesses?

In the videos the trainer states that the leader is probably the same person in both cases, as he's talked to B about this. Which suggests that the leader is the same as the "short one" mentioned in the press, who allegedly murdered C.

So the leader has upped the level of his (criminal) game from a few years ago when he robbed the trainer, because he's now arming his gang, with guns. But he himself is not armed? He's the leader, but he lets the other two robbers have guns, but he doesn't have a gun. Why? Because he prefers to kill with his hands? Let's suppose they found 100,000 euros, how does the leader know that the other two robbers aren't going to turn a gun on him so they can split the score between the two of them 50/50 and leave him out of the loop?

Suffocation would take several minutes. I can't remember what LE/MSM reports were saying. Was it 1-2 minutes to lose consciousness, then 7-8 minutes to suffocate to death? That's seems like a very long time for a robber to spend killing someone. Seems very inefficient since the gang is now armed with guns.

If you'd say that they didn't shoot the guns because they were worried about the noise, then how do you explain pointing a gun at B to intimidate him? I mean how would they know for sure that B wouldn't try to save C and risk getting shot to do so (and with the sound of the gunshot, which could wake up the neighbors, bringing the police)?

JMO

 

[Marg from Oz]

DBM

 

[DeLu]

These are media interviews with the trainer. I don't hear anything about guns. He talks about "wrestling/struggling" with the robbers, and the robbers overpowering them. He doesn't say that guns were pointed at them, so they were forced to comply. Other translators might want to check to see if I missed hearing the word "guns" somewhere in these videos. Also if anybody saw "guns" mentioned in a media report regarding the trainer's robbery, please post it. I'm trying to understand if these are supposed to be the same robbers in both cases, then why are they deviating from their modus operandi? In other words, 1) why were they now using guns (against B&C), when they weren't using guns before (against the trainer and his wife)? and 2) and why immediately murder C, when the trainer's wife wasn't killed? MOO

No firing guns were mentioned on this robbery. Only globs. The dog was also not killed rather sedated. And the wife was heavily beaten but not killed. Additionally, these husband and wife tried to confront them, while B was cooperative with them.

 

[MsBetsy]

If sb wants a therapy from NHS (free treatment) one must wait looooong time as queues are enormous. Then private sessions with acclaimed psychologists/psychiatrists are SO expensive that common folks cant afford them. This is the answer that people seek alternative ways - cheaper therapists. She took advantage of this situation I guess.

Yes, some people actually prefer non traditional types of therapy, such as a holistic or spiritual approach.