Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #3 *ARREST*

[Wishingwell]

B has arrived at court.

Caroline Crouch murder: Husband's lawyer resigns before court hearing | Daily Mail Online

 

[caylee17799]

Welcome! Thank you for the documentary, it's definitely going on the watch list.

Legally, C was 19. Born July, 2001, died May, 2021. As many Greeks are now saying via social media (can't link here), it is only in some villages that she is considered 20 (added year for gestation).

Really? I don't think the year of gestation is ever added to someone's age here. It's just that, when you ask people here how old they are, they'll answer based on a)the current year and b)the proximity to their last/their next birthday. So, my sister's birthday, for example, is in August, and she's gonna turn eighteen. Legally, she's still seventeen, however people here would refer to her as "an 18-year old", because she's closer to 18 than she's to 17. Furthermore, the state recognizes her as an 18-year old based on her birth year, not birthday, which is why she can, for example, have the COVID vaccine (which is offered here for ages 18+).
However, I believe there's also another reason for that. Attached to this report
Γλυκά Νερά: Ο θάνατος ήταν αγωνιώδης και όχι ακαριαίος – Τι δείχνει η ιατροδικαστική έκθεση για τη δολοφονία της Καρολάιν
is a segment of the ME's report, where both C and B's DOBs are listed. Caroline was born on 12/07/2001, and B was born on 20/07/1988, which would make the age difference between them precisely 13 years. That, of course, would, accordingly, make B a "33-year old", rather than a"32-year old", as he's so often described as by the media. Anyways, while I don't find it unusual that Caroline is referred to as "an 20-year old", it could be because a 20-year old being married to a 32/actually 33-year old sounds slightly better than a 19-year old being married to a 32-year old.

 

[Wishingwell]

An article in The Sun regarding the accomplice theory
https:www.thesun.co.uk/news/15347929/caroline-crouch-husband-accomplice-killed-illegal-activities/amp/

 

[tayaway]

Really? I don't think the year of gestation is ever added to someone's age here. It's just that, when you ask people here how old they are, they'll answer based on a)the current year and b)the proximity to their last/their next birthday. So, my sister's birthday, for example, is in August, and she's gonna turn eighteen. Legally, she's still seventeen, however people here would refer to her as "an 18-year old", because she's closer to 18 than she's to 17. Furthermore, the state recognizes her as an 18-year old based on her birth year, not birthday, which is why she can, for example, have the COVID vaccine (which is offered here for ages 18+).
However, I believe there's also another reason for that. Attached to this report
Γλυκά Νερά: Ο θάνατος ήταν αγωνιώδης και όχι ακαριαίος – Τι δείχνει η ιατροδικαστική έκθεση για τη δολοφονία της Καρολάιν
is a segment of the ME's report, where both C and B's DOBs are listed. Caroline was born on 12/07/2001, and B was born on 20/07/1988, which would make the age difference between them precisely 13 years. That, of course, would, accordingly, make B a "33-year old", rather than a"32-year old", as he's so often described as by the media. Anyways, while I don't find it unusual that Caroline is referred to as "an 20-year old", it could be because a 20-year old being married to a 32/actually 33-year old sounds slightly better than a 19-year old being married to a 32-year old.

Age is definitely a complex issue, with many variables! Your in depth explanation is much appreciated! ...yes, if they're going to refer to C as 20, they need to refer to B as 33! What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as we say in english!

 

[Lola68]

B has arrived at court.

Caroline Crouch murder: Husband's lawyer resigns before court hearing | Daily Mail Online

In that same article, it says that the lawyer resigned at the request of B.

 

[everybodhi]

snipped
Anyways, while I don't find it unusual that Caroline is referred to as "an 20-year old", it could be because a 20-year old being married to a 32/actually 33-year old sounds slightly better than a 19-year old being married to a 32-year old.

This is is like consumers feeling better about paying $19.99 than $20

 

[Legally Bland]

Caroline Krauts 's [Crouch's] family lawyer clarified that the family wants the child to grow up in Alonissos and will fight for it.

"We have filed a civil action representing Caroline's family. For understandable reasons, the mother could not come, in the situation she is in and the statement was made with authorization " , said Mr. Harmanis.

"We must address the issue of the child immediately. We will visit the juvenile prosecutor. First of all, there should be a consultation with the perpetrator's family. In Greece, criminal responsibility is individualized and as Caroline's mother confessed to me, she has excellent relations with the perpetrator's parents. I believe that with mutual understanding and love from everyone we will be able to find the most ideal solution ".

Finally, commenting on the issue of whether the victim's mother has the financial situation to raise the child, Mr. Harmanis clarified that his client "is supported by people. Her financial situation is good and she is one of the people who work from a young age honestly in Alonissos. The island, I believe is an ideal environment for the child to grow up to a certain age. "Beyond that, we will reconsider any stance."

Γλυκά Νερά: «Η μητέρα της Καρολάιν αγκάλιαζε τα χέρια που έκοψαν την ανάσα της κόρης της»

 

[tayaway]

This is is like consumers feeling better about paying $19.99 than $20

Yes! I twitted with a person who said C was in her 20s, so she was an adult. I was like, she was a teenager right up until her death. The person moved the goal posts and said, well, in Greece, you're an adult if you're 18! So you see, everything was normal and healthy! Nothing to see here except a dead adult body!

 

[tayaway]

Does anybody else think it strange that C's texts were in English, but her 'diary' was in Greek?

 

[everybodhi]

B has arrived at court.

Caroline Crouch murder: Husband's lawyer resigns before court hearing | Daily Mail Online

Oh man. I wonder how his cell mates will feel about him, if he will make new friends. Or not.
"Honor amongst thieves" and all that.
It's may be difficult to keep focus on controlling the child custody procedures, from inside, while managing his new lifestyle.

From your link:

"His trial is not expected to take place for at least 18 months, with Anagnostopoulos set to languish in what has been described as one of Europe's worst prisons."

"A number of reports have found that it is controlled by violent gangs with prison wardens too afraid to patrol inside"

" ..buildings at Korydallos holding between 230 to 430 people each were often overseen by just one prison officer 'who clearly was not in a position to exert any authority or control.'"

"It described conditions inside the prison as 'inhuman' with prisoners subjected to 'degrading treatment.'"

 

[caylee17799]

Does anybody else think it strange that C's texts were in English, but her 'diary' was in Greek?

There are many things I find strange about her "diary", and they are actually being discussed across many Greek platforms, however, since there are no official sources I can cite, I'll have to wait to see if some of them actually turn up to be accurate.

 

[tayaway]

There are many things I find strange about her "diary", and they are actually being discussed across many Greek platforms, however, since there are no official sources I can cite, I'll have to wait to see if some of them actually turn up to be accurate.

Same! I'm finding these things too, on social media, which you said, aren't allowed or official. In the math world, there is validation in taking the opinions of each individual of the crowd, adding it together, and revealing the rough truth through finding the average. For example, if we were to ask 1,000 Greek residents on twitter the day after C was murdered, who the killer was, if 97% of them said B, we know that would actually be the truth. The majority of Greeks that I'm running across on soc med do not believe it's C's diary. Alas, soc med does not exist as confirmation here. Can I state that enough to show frustration?

 

[Skigh]

Angry crowd shout for Brit mum's killer to ‘rot in prison’ as arrives at court

 

[everybodhi]

Caroline Krauts 's [Crouch's] family lawyer clarified that the family wants the child to grow up in Alonissos and will fight for it.

"We have filed a civil action representing Caroline's family. For understandable reasons, the mother could not come, in the situation she is in and the statement was made with authorization " , said Mr. Harmanis.

"We must address the issue of the child immediately. We will visit the juvenile prosecutor. First of all, there should be a consultation with the perpetrator's family. In Greece, criminal responsibility is individualized and as Caroline's mother confessed to me, she has excellent relations with the perpetrator's parents. I believe that with mutual understanding and love from everyone we will be able to find the most ideal solution ".

Finally, commenting on the issue of whether the victim's mother has the financial situation to raise the child, Mr. Harmanis clarified that his client "is supported by people. Her financial situation is good and she is one of the people who work from a young age honestly in Alonissos. The island, I believe is an ideal environment for the child to grow up to a certain age. "Beyond that, we will reconsider any stance."

Γλυκά Νερά: «Η μητέρα της Καρολάιν αγκάλιαζε τα χέρια που έκοψαν την ανάσα της κόρης της»

I so hope she gets to grow up on that beautiful little close-knit island where her mother grew up.
50-50 custody seems unstable, moving back and forth, her life split between two communities and schools.
Primary custody with visitations seems more logical and best for the child, and I feel like Babis' family needs to relax control and show some humility with this situation, to make it work, considering everything that has happened.
I still don't understand why she wasn't brought to her mother's funeral, along with her paternal grandparents.
It seemed inconsiderate. jmo
She saw her mother killed but a ceremony honoring her life was too much for her?

 

[Dotta]

Oh man. I wonder how his cell mates will feel about him, if he will make new friends. Or not.
"Honor amongst thieves" and all that.
It's may be difficult to keep focus on controlling the child custody procedures, from inside, while managing his new lifestyle.

From your link:

"His trial is not expected to take place for at least 18 months, with Anagnostopoulos set to languish in what has been described as one of Europe's worst prisons."

"A number of reports have found that it is controlled by violent gangs with prison wardens too afraid to patrol inside"

" ..buildings at Korydallos holding between 230 to 430 people each were often overseen by just one prison officer 'who clearly was not in a position to exert any authority or control.'"

"It described conditions inside the prison as 'inhuman' with prisoners subjected to 'degrading treatment.'"

And what about foreign nationalities he accused??? I bet Albanian, Georgian, Gypsy/Roma... inmates arent too happy about the fact the murderer wanted to pin his crime on their compatriots. General population???Ouch!!!

 

[caylee17799]

I so hope she gets to grow up on that beautiful little close-knit island where her mother grew up.
50-50 custody seems unstable, moving back and forth, her life split between two communities and schools.
Primary custody with visitations seems more logical and best for the child, and I feel like Babis' family needs to relax control and show some humility with this situation, to make it work, considering everything that has happened.
I still don't understand why she wasn't brought to her mother's funeral, along with her paternal grandparents.
It seemed inconsiderate. jmo
She saw her mother killed but a ceremony honoring her life was too much for her?

She was at her mother's funeral, and so were B's parents. It was the memorial service that took place 40 days later at which they were not present.
Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Σήμερα το τελευταίο «αντίο» στην 20χρονη Καρολάιν στην Αλόννησο

 

[Skigh]

She was at her mother's funeral, and so were B's parents. It was the memorial service that took place 40 days later at which they were not present.
Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Σήμερα το τελευταίο «αντίο» στην 20χρονη Καρολάιν στην Αλόννησο

I think the baby was not at the memorial service as B intended to disappear very soon afterwards so left the baby with his parents .

 

[Skigh]

Same! I'm finding these things too, on social media, which you said, aren't allowed or official. In the math world, there is validation in taking the opinions of each individual of the crowd, adding it together, and revealing the rough truth through finding the average. For example, if we were to ask 1,000 Greek residents on twitter the day after C was murdered, who the killer was, if 97% of them said B, we know that would actually be the truth. The majority of Greeks that I'm running across on soc med do not believe it's C's diary. Alas, soc med does not exist as confirmation here. Can I state that enough to show frustration?

I would imagine experts are looking very carefully at C's diary and working out who the author was or whether it had been altered.

 

[tayaway]

And what about foreign nationalities he accused??? I bet Albanian, Georgian, Gypsy/Roma... inmates arent too happy about the fact the murderer wanted to pin his crime on their compatriots. General population???Ouch!!!

Oh, you mean, like the Georgian who was falsely accused while LE allegedly knew it was B the whole time? Give a read to this Ef Syn article from today to get your blood boiling.

"I was tied to a chair for four days. I was beaten very badly by the police, I was dizzy and when one of them was tired, the other continued. They did not ask me anything, they just told me to confess that I killed the girl. I did not know what girl they were talking about. They told me "You killed her". I later learned that her husband had killed her and that I was being accused of theft. I have nothing to do with any theft. I only had fake papers. "

 

[Legally Bland]

Supreme Court investigation into the leak of Caroline's diary

[...]

The subject of the order of the prosecutor of the Supreme Court, V. Pliotas, is the publication of data from the case file for the crime in Glyka Nera . In particular, Mr. Pliotas ordered the Prosecutor 's Office to conduct a criminal investigation into ex officio prosecuted offenses, especially with regard to the publication of Caroline's diaries .

[...]

He also points out that the publication of these "is already perceived and reasonably, as a possible insult to the personality of the victim himself [herself] and can even be considered, that can contribute to creating a favorable climate for the accused, during the course of criminal proceedings."

Έρευνα του Αρείου Πάγου για τη διαρροή του ημερολογίου της Καρολάιν