Gun Control Debate #1

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I'm just gonna say this. Folks really should try to be more realistic about a child who is going through difficult periods. We were. I never thought mine would be a school shooter (no parent likely EVER does) but, I thought that mine might hurt themself. At that point, we gave up target shooting. We took the firearms out of the home, completely, w/the exception of a couple pistols and they were secured. After ours moved out of the the home, we brought them back in, and enjoy target shooting again. I'm thinking about going deer hunting this fall. I put my kid before my hobby. Period. If I wanted to go hunting I could have. My firearms were easily retrievable, by me, from the undisclosed location.
 
I'm just gonna say this. Folks really should try to be more realistic about a child who is going through difficult periods. We were. I never thought mine would be a school shooter (no parent likely EVER does) but, I thought that mine might hurt themself. At that point, we gave up target shooting. We took the firearms out of the home, completely, w/the exception of a couple pistols and they were secured. After ours moved out of the the home, we brought them back in, and enjoy target shooting again. I'm thinking about going deer hunting this fall. I put my kid before my hobby. Period. If I wanted to go hunting I could have. My firearms were easily retrievable, by me, from the undisclosed location.

:yourock:

Awesome post.

And one I assume ALL sides can agree on!!
 
The thing is, it is about us, at least partially. We’re the ones being asked to make sacrifices that people who don’t own guns, and have no use for them, are not. It’s good to have discussions, and talking to gun owners is a good start: The mere fact that a person has gone through the process of buying a gun, and knows what was involved, usually puts their general knowledge on the subject above your average non-gun owner. But the most important thing is that the discussion not turn into a lecture, which all too often is what happens (the one on this thread has been good and respectful, for the most part).

I’m one of those people most of you would characterize as “unyielding” on the subject. It’s not because I don’t care about people dying. My heart sinks whenever I hear about one of these events, but I usually get about 30 seconds to feel sad before some demagoguing politician blasts out a tweet basically accusing people like me of being complicit in it.

I’ve been informally following and learning about gun policy for the better part of twenty years. I’m pretty well acquainted with the realities of guns in America. For the record, there are about 300 million civilian owned firearms in the US, with millions more added every year, and these weapons have a “shelf life” of decades or longer.

So when well-meaning people make gun control proposals, and talk about things like eliminating private sales, banning magazines over a certain size, or increasing background check times, I immediately know that these modest changes are going to do next to nothing to stop mass shootings (or gun homicide in general, the vast majority of which are not mass shootings).

OK, maybe they would help from a statistical perspective. Maybe we’ll move from 12 horrific shootings a year with 10 fatalities each (making up those numbers) to 10 with 8 (I strongly doubt any of the changes proposed would be even that effective). But they won’t stop, just due to the sheer number of guns out there. And what will happen then? Will everyone who pushed for those changes in the law, and their elected officials, be content to stop there? When the next “Breaking News” headline hits, with pictures of screaming, sobbing children and family members all over the internet, will what’s already passed seem like enough? I’m guessing no- once they’ve enacted the currently politically-palatable ideas, they’ll move the window and ask for more.

The truth is, without drastic, wholesale bans on most types of firearms, with mandatory confiscation combined with draconian enforcement, you’re never going to see an end to these types of shootings (and you’d probably still occasionally see them even then, since the existing supply is so vast). I personally don’t want that, and don’t believe the Constitution allows that.

I know most people here will say “No, that’s a scare tactic, that’s not where it’s going” (and to those who admitted otherwise, thanks for your honesty), I know that it’s not the stated goal at this point. But thirty years down the line, with gun ownership under ever increasing restrictions, with the total number of guns owners decreasing to a smaller and smaller percentage, can you vouch for that generation of elected officials, and the voters who are putting them in office?

By all means, let’s increase what goes into these background checks; I’m always totally astounded when the histories of these shooters come out, and the utter craziness of their behaviors is revealed, that none of it ever made it into an official record. Let’s look at school security and see what can be done there, because if you’re not controlling access, you’re not keeping guns out. But restricting what responsible, adult American citizens can buy? I say no to that, and I don’t want to take a single step down that road, because I’m pretty sure I know where it ends.

BBM

I'm always stunned at that too. Stunned that many parents had felt they were "bonding", or something... by buying them a firearm and going to the range. Many are pretty skilled. This Parkland kid was a skilled JROTC marksman.
 
A military rifle. Not a hunting rifle. How is an assault rifle going to be used as self defense though? How many people are actually shot because of home invasion? Compared to people just going and shooting up a school I can't imagine it is many.

I think you're less likely to be a victim of home invasion if you have a gun or the criminal thinks you have a gun. I wonder why people don't put signs on their lawns or doors announcing 'gun free zone'. That wouldn't be very intelligent, would it.
 
:yourock:

Awesome post.

And one I assume ALL sides can agree on!!

Thanks, but, honestly, it was just a no brainer for us. I'm not putting down anyone but for the Love of all that's Holy, I don't see why some of these kids had access.
 
I'm just gonna say this. Folks really should try to be more realistic about a child who is going through difficult periods. We were. I never thought mine would be a school shooter (no parent likely EVER does) but, I thought that mine might hurt themself. At that point, we gave up target shooting. We took the firearms out of the home, completely, w/the exception of a couple pistols and they were secured. After ours moved out of the the home, we brought them back in, and enjoy target shooting again. I'm thinking about going deer hunting this fall. I put my kid before my hobby. Period. If I wanted to go hunting I could have. My firearms were easily retrievable, by me, from the undisclosed location.

I completely agree. What can we do about the parents who aren't even aware of what their kids are going through? I'm serious. Some parents are so wrapped up in their jobs, finances, latest boyfriend or girlfriend and social media that they're oblivious to their children's daily lives. More and more parents seem to think as long as there's food in the frig, clean laundry, satellite or cable and the latest electronics then their children's needs are met.
 
A military rifle. Not a hunting rifle. How is an assault rifle going to be used as self defense though? How many people are actually shot because of home invasion? Compared to people just going and shooting up a school I can't imagine it is many.

I would start out by defining an assault rifle as any center fire rifle
with an easily swapped external magazine holding more than 10 rounds or that can be used with such a magazine.

Home invasions are actually rare in the United States. There are cases where bad guys bust into a home intent on murder and mayhem. Most of these turn out to be drug gangs trying to shut down a competitor.

The vast majority of residential burglaries happen during the day when homes are empty because everyone is at work or school. Having nosy neighbors that are at home during the day really helps. So does a dog that will raise a ruckus when a stranger tries to break in. Burglaries of occupied homes are rare, despite the impression given by most burglar alarm ads.

If you do feel that a firearm is needed, an AR-15 or similar weapon is probably a bad choice. Rounds fired from this rifle can go right through the wall of a typical frame house and into your neighbors home. The blast from a shotgun will do serious damage to an invader with less risk to the folks next door. Also, real life bad guys don't act like the zombie invaders in Hollywood movies that keep coming as the macho blows them away with gunfire.
 
I think you're less likely to be a victim of home invasion if you have a gun or the criminal thinks you have a gun. I wonder why people don't put signs on their lawns or doors announcing 'gun free zone'. That wouldn't be very intelligent, would it.

Is that an opinion or a fact? I don't see how someone would anticipate you having an assault rifle, as opposed to a pistol in your home tbh. My point really is, why someone would need an assault rifle in their home for safety. I cannot get my head around that.
 
I would start out by defining an assault rifle as any center fire rifle
with an easily swapped external magazine holding more than 10 rounds or that can be used with such a magazine.

Home invasions are actually rare in the United States. There are cases where bad guys bust into a home intent on murder and mayhem. Most of these turn out to be drug gangs trying to shut down a competitor.

The vast majority of residential burglaries happen during the day when homes are empty because everyone is at work or school. Having nosy neighbors that are at home during the day really helps. So does a dog that will raise a ruckus when a stranger tries to break in. Burglaries of occupied homes are rare, despite the impression given by most burglar alarm ads.

If you do feel that a firearm is needed, an AR-15 or similar weapon is probably a bad choice. Rounds fired from this rifle can go right through the wall of a typical frame house and into your neighbors home. The blast from a shotgun will do serious damage to an invader with less risk to the folks next door. Also, real life bad guys don't act like the zombie invaders in Hollywood movies that keep coming as the macho blows them away with gunfire.

Exactly
 
I used to sit in amazement and wonder how people in Beirut could live in such violence.

Now in America, the choice is voluntary to live like one is in a war torn country.

When it is talked about arming teachers, the message is that problems can be solved with guns.

Killing is acceptable by adults and the killer. Great message.

I would like to post the meme but I won’t about the steps that are always with a mass shooting. The thoughts and prayers and then the fake discussion about the definition of assautl rifle.

Dead children are acceptable. Interesting.
 
I completely agree. What can we do about the parents who aren't even aware of what their kids are going through? I'm serious. Some parents are so wrapped up in their jobs, finances, latest boyfriend or girlfriend and social media that they're oblivious to their children's daily lives. More and more parents seem to think as long as there's food in the frig, clean laundry, satellite or cable and the latest electronics then their children's needs are met.

I'd mentioned, up thread, and I don't know if it would even help, but, maybe a PSA with, "Have you seen these signs?". Then list them off, as signs that some of the mass shooters have had. Maybe not be specific that you're listing them as such, but, a wake up call, of sorts. If a parent sees these signs, suggest Trigger Locks, at the very least. Cheap, quick, easy.
 
I don't want to be a broken record by continuing to post links to Dr. Langman's website, but he is an excellent source for actual research on the subject of school shootings.

I personally can start to feel hopeless when I consider that our country is filled with weapons already, and there are so many ways for people with ill intentions to get access to them.

Based on his research of school shootings and foiled attacks, he has identified ten actions that could help prevent future shootings. I actually think this would be a great article to pass on to parents, grandparents, teachers, or anyone that regularly has contact with children and teens in order to increase awareness of warning signs.

A quote from the article:

"So what can be done? The best defense is early detection. By the time shooters are approaching the school with a gun, it is too late. Even if they can be kept from entering the building, they still can go on a rampage. They can shoot people in the morning as they arrive at school, or wait until school lets out. If a door is locked, they may be able to shoot their way through. Shooters have to be stopped before they can get to the school with weapons. This means a different style of prevention than physical security" (Dr. Langman, "Ten Lessons Learned from School Shootings and Foiled Attacks")

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf
 
Obtuse argument. Cars are not primarily designed to kill or maim. That is the only reason guns are made.

Guns aren't just used to kill or maim. Guns, like vehicles, don't do anything on their own.
 
I don't want to be a broken record by continuing to post links to Dr. Langman's website, but he is an excellent source for actual research on the subject of school shootings.

I personally can start to feel hopeless when I consider that our country is filled with weapons already, and there are so many ways for people with ill intentions to get access to them.

Based on his research of school shootings and foiled attacks, he has identified ten actions that could help prevent future shootings. I actually think this would be a great article to pass on to parents, grandparents, teachers, or anyone that regularly has contact with children and teens in order to increase awareness of warning signs.

A quote from the article:

"So what can be done? The best defense is early detection. By the time shooters are approaching the school with a gun, it is too late. Even if they can be kept from entering the building, they still can go on a rampage. They can shoot people in the morning as they arrive at school, or wait until school lets out. If a door is locked, they may be able to shoot their way through. Shooters have to be stopped before they can get to the school with weapons. This means a different style of prevention than physical security" (Dr. Langman, "Ten Lessons Learned from School Shootings and Foiled Attacks")

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf


Good article. So, according to Lesson 9, “Punishment is Not Prevention,” it was a mistake that the school expelled Nikolas Cruz.
 
Guns aren't just used to kill or maim. Guns, like vehicles, don't do anything on their own.

Name me another use for a gun? Killing, maiming......getting you to the store to get your groceries?
 
Name me another use for a gun? Killing, maiming......getting you to the store to get your groceries?

Skeet shooting is very popular where I live. I totally don't understand your "getting you to the store..." comment, but that is ok.
 
Skeet shooting is very popular where I live. I totally don't understand your "getting you to the store..." comment, but that is ok.

I have no idea what a skeet is. What are guns manufactured for? Killing and maiming. You brought up the car argument, and cars are not designed primarily for killing and maiming. They have a legitimate other use. Guns are designed and manufactured to cause harm. No other reason.
 
I don't want to be a broken record by continuing to post links to Dr. Langman's website, but he is an excellent source for actual research on the subject of school shootings.

I personally can start to feel hopeless when I consider that our country is filled with weapons already, and there are so many ways for people with ill intentions to get access to them.

Based on his research of school shootings and foiled attacks, he has identified ten actions that could help prevent future shootings. I actually think this would be a great article to pass on to parents, grandparents, teachers, or anyone that regularly has contact with children and teens in order to increase awareness of warning signs.

A quote from the article:

"So what can be done? The best defense is early detection. By the time shooters are approaching the school with a gun, it is too late. Even if they can be kept from entering the building, they still can go on a rampage. They can shoot people in the morning as they arrive at school, or wait until school lets out. If a door is locked, they may be able to shoot their way through. Shooters have to be stopped before they can get to the school with weapons. This means a different style of prevention than physical security" (Dr. Langman, "Ten Lessons Learned from School Shootings and Foiled Attacks")

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf

Good article. So, according to Lesson 9, “Punishment is Not Prevention,” it was a mistake that the school expelled Nikolas Cruz.

It is a really good article.

My teenage years are way back in the rear view mirror but I'll never forget the teacher who saw the light in me. It is a critical and pivotal transition point in life.

Without knowing the detail of NC's expulsion from school taking a look at the definition of zero tolerance policy is good idea. This teen was without a father. And he was obviously capable of discipline JROTC, and of attention to detail, and secrecy in how he pulled off this mass shooting which could indicate high intelligence, aptitude.

What is particularly chilling about him is his escape plan; wearing his JROTC shirt, leaving his weapon, exiting in the chaos, mingling with the fleeing crowd, calmly sitting in McDonald's.

Not only were there numerous red flags but perhaps as many missed opportunities for this misdirected teenager.
 
Skeet shooting is very popular where I live. I totally don't understand your "getting you to the store..." comment, but that is ok.

My dad loved skeet shooting! He went once a week for years and years with a group of relatives and friends.

As much as I'm for gun regulations, I also understand guns can be safely used and enjoyed.
 
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