Gun Control Debate #2

[CADwrest]

Great post, and I agree with you. When anyone says these types of high-capacity, high-power weapons have always been available, they're misspeaking. It's demonstrably false.

From your link: "Colt started selling the semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle as the Colt AR-15 in 1964."

It's been available for civilian purchase for 54 years.

 

[Blef]

From your link: "Colt started selling the semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle as the Colt AR-15 in 1964."

It's been available for civilian purchase for 54 years.

It only had a 5 round magazine back then though. Now magazines are huge!

 

[KaaBoom]

RBBM. The guns available now are higher powered and can handle much more ammunition than ever before. Dealing with a shooter who had a pistol or a hunting rifle would definitely be easier than handling someone with a military grade weapon that has a huge magazine, and that can be basically upgraded to an automatic.

I believe that in part it is to do with disaffected young men, but the availability of the types of weapons around now can't be ignored.

Yep, if the La Loche, Saskatchewan school shooter had access to military grade weapons, the death toll would have probably been about 17 instead of four.

 

[CADwrest]

It only had a 5 round magazine back then though. Now magazines are huge!

The Wikipedia article says that the first mass produced ones were issued with 5 round mags, but that wasn't all that was available:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-brief-in-9th-circuit/?utm_term=.01f1ed3f128c

"The most popular rifle in American history, the AR-15, entered the market in 1963 with a standard magazine of 20."

ETA: Often, when you buy a semi-auto (rifle or pistol), the manufacturer includes only a small magazine with it. What they were shipped with isn't an indicator of anything.

 

[KaaBoom]

Guns of all kinds have existed for centuries.

Handguns, hunting guns, and all sorts of guns have been a part of American life for 200+ years.

Yeah, muskets have been around for 200+ years. But muskets were not very useful for mass murders. Because the victims didn't tend to wait around for the two minutes it took to load each shot.

 

[Blef]

Hang on. You can buy a bayonet lug for an AR15? Really?

 

[KaaBoom]

Even 50% of shootings stopped would mean that 7,000 people who died in 2017 would still be alive in that case.

OK, but I don't think reducing the number by 50% is adequate. Also as I said it might not even be that much. Many school shooters kill their parents first, and then take their guns.

 

[kittythehare]

I feel reading PL 94-142 which is the law for children with disabilities as well as the history of that law would be a good idea.

It tells the rights and steps that are to be followed for children with special needs. It is a Federal Law.

Since I am from Minnesota and was a teacher at the time the law was instituted, I can inform that in the beginning, Minnesota had 10% of children in special needs education,

The Feds said, “No no no!”” The Bell curve had to be followed with only 3% allowed in special education.

Eventually, the term Least Restrictive Environment came to be as parents sued that their kids were being warehoused in special ed.

That is why kids are moved out of more intense environments. Plus, that kind of education is expensive. It is an unfunded mandate.

In wealthy school districts, kids get away with more as parents can afford lawyers. Administrators would be in court the whole year everyday.

Orono in MN just had some kind of threat where the kid was removed in handcuffs, I doubt if there are any poor kids in Orono.

Which brings up the issue that it seems like most school shooters come from white affluent families.

Thanks for that human.

I like to remember that children/adults with disabilities are not a homogeneous race and I abhor the one treatment fits all viewpoint to the extent that I feel physically ill when I see it expressed..
and I never klikt that key your thoughtful post provided in the lock.

I believe it's well worthy of further exploration and discussion.
Thank you.

 

[Blef]

OK, but I don't think reducing the number by 50% is adequate. Also as I said it might not even be that much. Many school shooters kill their parents first, and then take their guns.

They already have the guns at that point though, and so the guns must not have been adequately secured if they got their hands on them.

It looks like the NRA are coming under increasing pressure

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/23/us-companies-nra-best-western-wyndham

 

[ohreally]

Respectfully, Cruz attended six schools in three years, and was kicked out of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in 2015, I believe.

He hadn't been a student in quite some time. That doesn't mean the school and sheriff weren't worried about limiting arrests back in 2015, but they expelled him. They didn't exactly ignore his problem behavior. They got rid of him. IMO

There are many reports that he was expelled, but the latest report is that he was not expelled. In 2016 he was removed from Marjory Douglas.
After that he attended three different alternative schools.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article201216104.html
IMO the fact that he went to three different alternative schools in less than a year or year and a half tells me he was also being threatening at the other schools. Broward County Schools has thier own police department and investigation team. Instead of wanting good statistics he should of been charged with assault for the fights we know about, then maybe this wouldn't of happened.

 

[CADwrest]

Hang on. You can buy a bayonet lug for an AR15? Really?

That was one of the features used to describe an assault weapon in the 1994 ban.

 

[Blef]

That was one of the features used to describe an assault weapon in the 1994 ban.

Apparently they are still available. I'm completely gobsmacked by that

 

[human]

Snip
In February 2016, neighbors told police that they were worried he “planned to shoot up the school”

https://www.naplesnews.com/story/ne...etails-his-homicidal-intentions-mo/365975002/

Snip
About two months later, an unidentified caller told police that Cruz had been collecting guns and knives.

Snip
A second cousin asked police to take away Cruz's guns after his mom died on November 1.

Snip
After the February 2016 call, a deputy forwarded the information to the Stoneman Douglas School Resource Officer, Deputy Scot Peterson.

I wonder who the second cousin is. Obviously close enough to know Cruz has weapons but not interested in a funeral,

 

[human]

IMO no. The school and the sheriff were more concerned about lowering arrests of the students.

Probably as arrests usually don’t help. In the long run, would an arrest have stopped Cruz? Would he have had to give up the weapons he had?

 

[KaaBoom]

They already have the guns at that point though, and so the guns must not have been adequately secured if they got their hands on them.

It looks like the NRA are coming under increasing pressure

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/23/us-companies-nra-best-western-wyndham

Adam Lanza killed his mother with a .22. He then stole her Bushmaster XM-15 and used it to annihilate that first grade class. If he didn't have the .22, he could have easily killed her by other means, and still got her gun. Some kid who is hell bent on committing mass murder, is not going to be easily deterred by a gun lock.

 

[human]

There are many reports that he was expelled, but the latest report is that he was not expelled. In 2016 he was removed from Marjory Douglas.
After that he attended three different alternative schools.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article201216104.html
IMO the fact that he went to three different alternative schools in less than a year or year and a half tells me he was also being threatening at the other schools. Broward County Schools has thier own police department and investigation team. Instead of wanting good statistics he should of been charged with assault for the fights we know about, then maybe this wouldn't of happened.

It depends what happened. Kids with special needs on an Individualized Education Plan have lots of safeguards. It is not easy to deal with a kid who,has behavioral issues.

 

[Tillicum]

Probably as arrests usually don’t help. In the long run, would an arrest have stopped Cruz? Would he have had to give up the weapons he had?

I would hope so. Guess we'll never know now.

 

[Blef]

Adam Lanza killed his mother with a .22. He then stole her Bushmaster XM-15 and used it to annihilate that first grade class. If he didn't have the .22, he could have easily killed her by other means, and still got her gun. Some kid who is hell bent on committing mass murder, is not going to be easily deterred by a gun lock.

He killed her with the .22, which his mother allowed her mentally ill son access to because she didn't keep it away from him, she didn't keep it locked up and out of his hands. If you keep a gun in a solid safe, and the ammo in another solid safe, and don't allow children or the mentally ill access then you solve the problem of them getting the guns.

 

[bears10]

I feel reading PL 94-142 which is the law for children with disabilities as well as the history of that law would be a good idea.

It tells the rights and steps that are to be followed for children with special needs. It is a Federal Law.

Since I am from Minnesota and was a teacher at the time the law was instituted, I can inform that in the beginning, Minnesota had 10% of children in special needs education,

The Feds said, “No no no!”” The Bell curve had to be followed with only 3% allowed in special education.

Eventually, the term Least Restrictive Environment came to be as parents sued that their kids were being warehoused in special ed.

That is why kids are moved out of more intense environments. Plus, that kind of education is expensive. It is an unfunded mandate.

In wealthy school districts, kids get away with more as parents can afford lawyers. Administrators would be in court the whole year everyday.

Orono in MN just had some kind of threat where the kid was removed in handcuffs, I doubt if there are any poor kids in Orono.

Which brings up the issue that it seems like most school shooters come from white affluent families.

This brief review has included 20 school shooters who were not white males (22, if Jason Hoffman and Robert Flores were of Latino descent). White male shooters may be more common than those who are neither white nor male, but we should not let this become a stereotype. For one thing, it is inaccurate and fails to take account of a significant percentage of school shooters. Most importantly, however, if we think that the only people who commit rampage attacks at schools are white males, we will be blind to those at risk of massive violence who do not fit the profile in our minds. And that could be tragic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...2/school-shooters-who-are-not-white-males?amp

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I wonder who the second cousin is. Obviously close enough to know Cruz ahs weapons but not interested in a funeral,

I think I read somewhere that someone close (maybe a relative) called from Massachusetts to report on N.C. being a threat but I don’t remember where I saw that. Anyway, that would be a somewhat long and expensive flight (short notice) to attend the funeral of someone that you haven’t seen or a relative you haven’t been in touch with in a while, IMO.