Gun Control Debate #2

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FYI 44% of school shooters are over 18. Many are over 21. 46% use a gun they got outside the home. So parents locking their guns up would probably reduce the number by about 50%. Maybe not even that much. A lot of school shooters kill their parents first, and then take their guns.

Analysis of School Shootings

?? Confused, as seems to be par lately. Does it say this in the article you posted the link for? The way I read it, the examples are mainly under 18 years. I see nowhere that it shows the statistics you listed —- can you point me to that part of the article, please?

It does show this:
[FONT=&quot]Between 2013-15 Everytown identified 160 school shootings across 38 states. Nearly 53 percent of the identified shootings took place at K-12 schools, and 47 percent took place on college or university campuses.[/FONT]
 

Interesting, thank you.

The Second Amendment is unimpeachable. It guarantees the right of citizens to defend themselves. I accept, however, that it does not guarantee that every civilian can bear any and all arms.
For example, the purchase of fully automatic firearms is largely banned already, and I cannot purchase an AT-4 rocket, grenades, a Bradley fighting vehicle or an Abrams tank. I know that no single action can prevent a truly determined person from committing mass murder, and I am aware of other ways to commit mass murder, such as bombings and mass vehicular slaughter. Not being able to control everything, however, should not prevent us from doing something.
Therefore, I support the following:
 
[FONT=&quot]https://twitter.com/CNN/status/967171986295226369

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A woman who called an FBI tip line in early January described a young man -- the eventual Florida shooter -- with an arsenal of knives and guns who was "going to explode" and said she feared him "getting into a school and just shooting the place up." [/FONT]http://cnn.it/2ESp7OI
#BREAKING
 
Guns of all kinds have existed for centuries.

Handguns, hunting guns, and all sorts of guns have been a part of American life for 200+ years.

But only in the past 20 years or so have mass shootings, and school shootings, become commonplace. I think it's necessary to explore WHY that is.

The guns have always been available. It's the PEOPLE who have changed, IMO. Our common values and goals as a society have disintegrated.

Some broad brush, pessimistic observations contribute to that, IMO.

Families have disintegrated on a large scale. Social mores and norms have been obliterated. Children are conceived irresponsibly, and they get older, but are not nurtured, supervised, guided, and raised. Violence, murder, guns, and killing is considered a fun spectator sport and entertainment for even small children, in the form of movies and video games. Kids are completely desensitized to killing and gun violence on TV, in movies, and video games. Kids have fewer attachments to adults, and have less respect for adults than ever before. Education is not valued, and has been watered down. The ethic of hard work is disappearing, and being replaced with entitlement mentality. Youth have no idea how to work hard and consistently at anything, or what it means to have integrity, responsibility, and accountability. Extremist religious, social, racial, and political ideologies proliferate on social media and the internet, gathering new recruits far easier than ever before, and urging violence and destruction. Mental illness and poor coping abilities are commonplace. A rapid influx of people from many areas of the world have not assimilated to common goals and core values, but remain in their tribal enclaves, becoming ever more disaffected. Diversity is killing us, not making us stronger.

Definitely pessimistic, but these are trends in the U.S. I see every day. So then you add easily available guns to the mix of vast social problems and disturbed individuals we have, and these mass killings, suicides, and domestic gun rages are understandable from a sociological perspective.

We need to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people. We all agree on that. But to do that, we have to clearly identify what behaviors and conditions/ diagnoses constitutes the "wrong" person. We have to have easier mechanisms to COMPEL disturbed people to get diagnosis, and compel treatment. And we can't even get to that point. IMO, we have essentially no functional mental health system in the U.S., which was a direct and intentional result of de-institutionalization. Why? Because effective mental health care is extremely costly and labor intensive, and oftentimes is a lifelong need. Nobody wants to pay for it.

After many of these mass shootings, there have been piles of obvious red flags, reports not followed up on, massively disturbed people. Preventing mass shootings is NOT just about restricting gun access.

As a person who has travelled and lived in other places on earth and as I am living out of the US since I retired, I can tell you this breakdown is happening everywhere. And the kids see the same videos,:movies, music. Asian vidoes are far more violent and are not seen in the US because they are not in English.

What they do not have where I live and have lived is access to guns. Hence, the kids that are upset do not shoot anyone. Adults that are upset do not shoot anyone.

That is the difference. Guns. Society has breakdowns everywhere.
 
Respectfully, Cruz attended six schools in three years, and was kicked out of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in 2015, I believe.

He hadn't been a student in quite some time. That doesn't mean the school and sheriff weren't worried about limiting arrests back in 2015, but they expelled him. They didn't exactly ignore his problem behavior. They got rid of him. IMO

Yes, they moved him around. Yes, FAPE is a huge issue with mentally ill and intellectually impaired students. Yes, "appropriate" is always being litigated in special education. Yes, the special education system is a disaster from top to bottom with the policies, ideology, and funding. Special ed needs a complete restructuring, IMO.

The bigger question is WHY was NC never referred to law enforcement for his many many weapons infractions, and physical violence? No one is really asking that question loudly and persistently in the media. Referral to law enforcement is the ONE thing that would have fairly conclusively prevented him from buying the rifle. IMO, the Broward county school system is criminally negligent for NOT referring him to the criminal justice system for charges.

If I were the parent of a murdered student, I would work very hard to bring charges civilly against the Broward County school system.

Yes, schools need to move kids around and impose school disciplinary actions. But school discipline versus criminal referral and prosecution is NOT and "either/ or" proposition. BOTH should occur simultaneously. Perhaps a student infraction warrants expulsion, suspension, or transfer to an ALP. But that should NEVER be a substitute for the juvenile justice system referral, or even adult criminal charges if warranted.

The problem we have is that in their zeal to lower perceived crime and disciplinary actions, schools are now actively (by policy) REFUSING to call police for criminal infractions. This whole "stop the school to prison pipeline" mantra has persuaded ideologically left leaning politicians and school administrators that they "must" avoid referring kids for things that can lead to "criminal records". Some colossally misguided people seem to think that actively avoiding disciplinary and criminal consequences when criminal behavior occurs is an actual TECHNIQUE to produce high quality citizens. Or something akin to "sameness" and "equality".

So these policies have enabled someone like NC, who had no criminal history. The Broward County school system (hiding behind "privacy" concerns and things like FAPE) nurtured, enabled and groomed all of his psychopathy and criminality, IMO.

NC had MORE intervention than almost ANY disturbed student gets in the public school system.

NC, IMO, has permanent congenital issues that affect his judgement and behavior that are "incurable" with any level of special education or mental health care. There are lots and lots of kids like NC. What do we do with them? We can't keep coddling them and shielding them from the LE system and consequences that will keep them from getting guns and killing people.
 
Yes, they moved him around. Yes, FAPE is a huge issue with mentally ill and intellectually impaired students. Yes, "appropriate" is always being litigated in special education. Yes, the special education system is a disaster from top to bottom with the policies, ideology, and funding. Special ed needs a complete restructuring, IMO.

The bigger question is WHY was NC never referred to law enforcement for his many many weapons infractions, and physical violence? No one is really asking that question loudly and persistently in the media. Referral to law enforcement is the ONE thing that would have fairly conclusively prevented him from buying the rifle. IMO, the Broward county school system is criminally negligent for NOT referring him to the criminal justice system for charges.

If I were the parent of a murdered student, I would work very hard to bring charges civilly against the Broward County school system.

Yes, schools need to move kids around and impose school disciplinary actions. But school discipline versus criminal referral and prosecution is NOT and "either/ or" proposition. BOTH should occur simultaneously. Perhaps a student infraction warrants expulsion, suspension, or transfer to an ALP. But that should NEVER be a substitute for the juvenile justice system referral, or even adult criminal charges if warranted.

The problem we have is that in their zeal to lower perceived crime and disciplinary actions, schools are now actively (by policy) REFUSING to call police for criminal infractions. This whole "stop the school to prison pipeline" mantra has persuaded ideologically left leaning politicians and school administrators that they "must" avoid referring kids for things that can lead to "criminal records". Some colossally misguided people seem to think that actively avoiding disciplinary and criminal consequences when criminal behavior occurs is an actual TECHNIQUE to produce high quality citizens. Or something akin to "sameness" and "equality".

So these policies have enabled someone like NC, who had no criminal history. The Broward County school system (hiding behind "privacy" concerns and things like FAPE) nurtured, enabled and groomed all of his psychopathy and criminality, IMO.

NC had MORE intervention than almost ANY disturbed student gets in the public school system.

NC, IMO, has permanent congenital issues that affect his judgement and behavior that are "incurable" with any level of special education or mental health care. There are lots and lots of kids like NC. What do we do with them? We can't keep coddling them and shielding them from the LE system and consequences that will keep them from getting guns and killing people.

Brilliant and truthful post, KZ
 
Adam Lanza killed his mother with a .22. He then stole her Bushmaster XM-15 and used it to annihilate that first grade class. If he didn't have the .22, he could have easily killed her by other means, and still got her gun. Some kid who is hell bent on committing mass murder, is not going to be easily deterred by a gun lock.

A 22 can be made semi automatic and it can be automatic as well by someone with a little skill. Those clips have got to go. But it has to be written in such a way that someone cannot make another way of making lots of rounds available.
 
K-Z: The bigger question is WHY was NC never referred to law enforcement for his many many weapons infractions, and physical violence? No one is really asking that question loudly and persistently in the media. Referral to law enforcement is the ONE thing that would have fairly conclusively prevented him from buying the rifle. IMO, the Broward county school system is criminally negligent for NOT referring him to the criminal justice system for charges.

I may be mistaken, but wasn’t 911/LE called several of the times to report his behaviors and fear of the guns? And reports were made twice to the armed security officer, an employee of the Sheriff’s Dept., and that went nowhere. Exactly who in law enforcement should he have been referred to?
 
This brief review has included 20 school shooters who were not white males (22, if Jason Hoffman and Robert Flores were of Latino descent). White male shooters may be more common than those who are neither white nor male, but we should not let this become a stereotype. For one thing, it is inaccurate and fails to take account of a significant percentage of school shooters. Most importantly, however, if we think that the only people who commit rampage attacks at schools are white males, we will be blind to those at risk of massive violence who do not fit the profile in our minds. And that could be tragic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...2/school-shooters-who-are-not-white-males?amp

Interesting but some were a stretch on the author’s part. I think it still would be good to find out what leads to the rampage killings by those who do not have the issues of poverty and race that are so often identified by people as being problematic. Dylan Roof came from a wealthy background as well.

Why are so many privileged having these kind of issues since poverty and race have been identified as issues in other crimes
 
It depends what happened. Kids with special needs on an Individualized Education Plan have lots of safeguards. It is not easy to deal with a kid who,has behavioral issues.
it is just my opinion, but I do feel like both Cruz and the students were let down in order to keep the statistics looking good. Special needs students do have special circumstances in schools, but the laws do not change for them. Unless of course they are found by a court of law to not be responsible. It sounds harsh, but he needed to be arrested and charged with a felony. He committed a lot of things that are felonies. Yes, he might of had to spend some time in a juvenile detention center, but now at a minimal he is probably going to be spending the rest of his life in prison, and seventeen people dead.
If the system had worked like it is suppose to he would be a felon, and not be able to legally buy his guns.
 
As a person who has travelled and lived in other places on earth and as I am living out of the US since I retired, I can tell you this breakdown is happening everywhere. And the kids see the same videos,:movies, music. Asian vidoes are far more violent and are not seen in the US because they are not in English.

What they do not have where I live and have lived is access to guns. Hence, the kids that are upset do not shoot anyone. Adults that are upset do not shoot anyone.

That is the difference. Guns. Society has breakdowns everywhere.

I disagree. There are many disparities in demographics with the US culture (for many reasons) that are percentage-wise far different than other countries. We are experiencing sociological “Social Strain”. We have affluenza living around the corner from homeless encampments....all throughout our country with large extremes in those variables. You know, the “haves” and the “have nots” at alarmingly unusual numbers at both sides of the spectrum.

Our history from the Revolution against Great Britain, our interaction with Native Americans (horrific), our bloody Civil War and all of our WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam Nam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan campaigns, etc leave us with a certain **special** take on violence. Unique to our culture. “Here we are to save the day” propaganda. Captain America stuff.

And let’s not forget that we are largely a 2-income society with the latchkey-kid syndrome as an after effect. TV, YouTube, social media, X-Box are literally “teaching” our kids. Youngsters have highly influential minds. The internet has been a game changer.

Families no longer live together on the farm or the same block to keep an eye on “squirrelly Johnny”, iykwim.

Dont bother with the retorts because I’ve seen many changes personally here in the US during these decades. Just throwing my observations out there....
 
There are many reports that he was expelled, but the latest report is that he was not expelled. In 2016 he was removed from Marjory Douglas.
After that he attended three different alternative schools.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article201216104.html
IMO the fact that he went to three different alternative schools in less than a year or year and a half tells me he was also being threatening at the other schools. Broward County Schools has thier own police department and investigation team. Instead of wanting good statistics he should of been charged with assault for the fights we know about, then maybe this wouldn't of happened.

It is difficult to expel a kid with special needs. Rather , they moved him to another setting, Expulsion involves court. We do not know what his offenses at school were, do we?

I only speak about this as this is a problem around the US. Kids with severe needs who do not get help,

Because of privacy laws, the public has no clue as to what kids are like. The interventions they need but are not getting
 
I disagree. There are many disparities in demographics with the US culture (for many reasons) that are percentage-wise far different than other countries. We are experiencing sociological “Social Strain”. We have affluenza living around the corner from homeless encampments....all throughout our country with large extremes in those variables. You know, the “haves” and the “have nots” at alarmingly unusual numbers at both sides of the spectrum.

Our history from the Revolution against Great Britain, our interaction with Native Americans (horrific), our bloody Civil War and all of our WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam Nam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan campaigns, etc leave us with a certain **special** take on violence. Unique to our culture. “Here we are to save the day” propaganda. Captain America stuff.

And let’s not forget that we are largely a 2-income society with the latchkey-kid syndrome as an after effect. TV, YouTube, social media, X-Box are literally “teaching” our kids. Youngsters have highly influential minds. The internet has been a game changer.

Families no longer live together on the farm or the same block to keep an eye on “squirrelly Johnny”, iykwim.

Dont bother with the retorts because I’ve seen many changes personally here in the US during these decades. Just throwing my observations out there....

These are also issues in places such as Canada, the UK and Australia. Disaffected young people exist there too, in much the same situations. However teenagers in those countries do not have access to guns and ammo. Hence they don't go shooting up schools
 
These are also issues in places such as Canada, the UK and Australia. Disaffected young people exist there too, in much the same situations. However teenagers in those countries do not have access to guns and ammo. Hence they don't go shooting up schools

Look at the numbers....the percentages....and all the other variables that make the US unique that I have listed. It is a smorgasbord of issues.... not just one or two
 
Provide a link and I will

Sorry but it would take me too long after my 10 hour workday to post empirical research on all of my perceived causal factors mentioned. Anyway, I’m living it daily so no link necessary. I’m saying that the US has a unique culture, history, demographics, economics and that simply guns aren’t the only reason for what is currently going on.

Recently near me, we had a young man attack random strangers by eating their faces. No gun involved.....
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
America's gun culture in 10 charts


The attack at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School is the sixth school shooting incident this year so far that has either wounded or killed students.
Last year, an attack on a concert in Las Vegas left 58 dead, the worst mass shooting in the US, and again raised questions about gun ownership and whether there should be tougher controls.

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Sorry but it would take me too long after my 10 hour workday to post empirical research on all of my perceived causal factors mentioned. Anyway, I’m living it daily so no link necessary. I’m saying that the US has a unique culture, history, demographics, economics and that simply guns aren’t the only reason for what is currently going on.

I'm currently still at work. So I'll take it as your opinion only. Guns are the reason mass shooting happen. Take away access to guns from these disaffected young people and the shooting simply can't happen.
 
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