Gun Control Debate #2

[jillycat]

it is just my opinion, but I do feel like both Cruz and the students were let down in order to keep the statistics looking good. Special needs students do have special circumstances in schools, but the laws do not change for them. Unless of course they are found by a court of law to not be responsible. It sounds harsh, but he needed to be arrested and charged with a felony. He committed a lot of things that are felonies. Yes, he might of had to spend some time in a juvenile detention center, but now at a minimal he is probably going to be spending the rest of his life in prison, and seventeen people dead.
If the system had worked like it is suppose to he would be a felon, and not be able to legally buy his guns.

I think this is one of the issues that will not be easily overcome. I have a friend who's a therapist and she used to do crisis and hold assessments of people who came to the ER because of reports of various emotional and mental presentations. In one case, a guy came in and was claiming that he wanted to kill female college students on the local campus and then rape their bodies and that voices were instructing him to do this, so he was held but his insurance wouldn't pay to keep him past a certain point and he was released despite my friend's fervent appeals for him to remain detained. She also felt he was playing a game about hearing voices and was perhaps a sociopath with a stated mission.

We're often releasing people like this who should not be released or belong in another environment, or we're hauling off people who under greater scrutiny pose no threat.

Law enforcement and the psych system are not a particularly good marriage. The sheriff in Parkland was making some pretty bold statements about general labels of "mental illness" and Baker-acting people for what sounded like any reference that could be construed as a threat.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

U.S. gun manufacturers have produced 150 million guns since 1986

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/02/23/how-many-guns-are-there/

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

http://www.businessinsider.com/park...ily-shops-doctored-cnn-emails-to-media-2018-2

The family of Colton Haab, a student at the Florida high school where a gunman killed 17 people last week, provided a doctored email between Haab's father, Glenn Haab, and a CNN producer to media outlets.

On Friday afternoon, Fox News and the HuffPost reached out to CNN to verify emails between the Haabs and Stevenson that they received from Colton.

A CNN source provided Colton's version of the emails, as well as their versions of all of the communications between the Haabs and CNN, to Business Insider.

In CNN's version of one email, Stevenson told Glenn that Colton needed to stick to a question that he and Stevenson "discussed on the phone that he submitted." But in the version of the email provided by Colton to Fox and HuffPost, the phrase, "that he submitted" is deleted.

 

[Lilibet]

If these well-researched articles from “Mother Jones” have been posted already I missed them. Apologies for a re-run. Published between 2012-2015, they are quite educational and thought-provoking, whatever one’s point of view. I don’t normally read “Mother Jones” and I’m not too familiar with which way it leans, so I’m not endorsing any political point of view by posting these articles from this particular magazine. I just think they can add a lot to the discussion.

“Exactly What is a Mass Shooting?”
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2012/08/what-is-a-mass-shooting/

“Why Mass Shootings Deserve Deeper Investigation.”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/mass-shootings-james-alan-fox/

“Inside the Race to Stop the Next Mass Shooter.”
Threat assessment, intervention and management. Very long, but worth reading. I’ve saved this article since the shooting at Umpqua Community College here in Oregon.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/mass-shootings-threat-assessment-shooter-fbi-columbine/

“A Guide to Mass Shootings in America.”
Constantly updated dataset/map of mass shootings, including the most recent one in FL. There are several links to other articles worth reading.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map/
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

“No, there has not been a mass shooting every day this year.”
A discussion of inflated statistics.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/no-there-were-not-355-mass-shootings-this-year/

“16 Charts showing the shocking cost of gun violence.”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/04/charts-show-cost-price-gun-violence-america/

“Ten pro-gun myths shot down.”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check/

The use of high capacity magazines in mass shootings.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/high-capacity-magazines-mass-shootings/

 

[human]

Yes, they moved him around. Yes, FAPE is a huge issue with mentally ill and intellectually impaired students. Yes, "appropriate" is always being litigated in special education. Yes, the special education system is a disaster from top to bottom with the policies, ideology, and funding. Special ed needs a complete restructuring, IMO.

The bigger question is WHY was NC never referred to law enforcement for his many many weapons infractions, and physical violence? No one is really asking that question loudly and persistently in the media. Referral to law enforcement is the ONE thing that would have fairly conclusively prevented him from buying the rifle. IMO, the Broward county school system is criminally negligent for NOT referring him to the criminal justice system for charges.

If I were the parent of a murdered student, I would work very hard to bring charges civilly against the Broward County school system.

Yes, schools need to move kids around and impose school disciplinary actions. But school discipline versus criminal referral and prosecution is NOT and "either/ or" proposition. BOTH should occur simultaneously. Perhaps a student infraction warrants expulsion, suspension, or transfer to an ALP. But that should NEVER be a substitute for the juvenile justice system referral, or even adult criminal charges if warranted.

The problem we have is that in their zeal to lower perceived crime and disciplinary actions, schools are now actively (by policy) REFUSING to call police for criminal infractions. This whole "stop the school to prison pipeline" mantra has persuaded ideologically left leaning politicians and school administrators that they "must" avoid referring kids for things that can lead to "criminal records". Some colossally misguided people seem to think that actively avoiding disciplinary and criminal consequences when criminal behavior occurs is an actual TECHNIQUE to produce high quality citizens. Or something akin to "sameness" and "equality".

So these policies have enabled someone like NC, who had no criminal history. The Broward County school system (hiding behind "privacy" concerns and things like FAPE) nurtured, enabled and groomed all of his psychopathy and criminality, IMO.

NC had MORE intervention than almost ANY disturbed student gets in the public school system.

NC, IMO, has permanent congenital issues that affect his judgement and behavior that are "incurable" with any level of special education or mental health care. There are lots and lots of kids like NC. What do we do with them? We can't keep coddling them and shielding them from the LE system and consequences that will keep them from getting guns and killing people.

Being from MN as I am, I would like to say that there are many many many students like him in residentail treatmen't im MN alone. Unless one works in these schools, there is no way for the publkc to know the level of severity of these children.

He was under 18 when he was in school. His records would be private. IEP’s are kept under lock and key.

If people had any idea of how many kids there are like him, they would be terrified. What happens to them as they age out of residentail treatment? I do not know.

The things that children in residentail treatment have experienced in their short lives are horrifying. Cruz had a concerned parent which many of these damaged children do not have.

Special education has been overhauled over the years by parents demanding lots of different things.

Many people fight the special education label for their child. The school wants to have intervention, The parents do not want it so they start school shopping looking for the school that will not label their child with issues.

I wonder how the Cruz couple were able to adopt at such an older age?

 

[human]

I think we are talking about two different issues. I am not talking about administration expelling him. I am talking about law enforcement at the school and home not arresting him. Special needs is not a consideration when making an arrest. That is the decision of the courts. It does sound harsh, but again if he would of been arrested and charged with the felonies (from what all he did according to media reports) he would not been legally allowed to buy his guns.

I am curious what his felomies are? There is profanity. That does not seem like a felony. There is an assault. What did that entail? Not all assaults are felonies, Was it him throwing a chair? That happens in behavior classrooms all of the time, I know it may be shocking to people, but kids in these programs have behavior plans where the goal is to get them learn new methods of dealing with anger.

 

[human]

That is a law for education. Could you point out to me where specifically in this law it states that law enforcement is suppose to give special consideration in arresting a special needs student. That because a person is special needs they should not be arrested for threatening, fighting or holding a gun to members of thier families head.

The discussion was that the school was responsible. I was responding about school only

Are there calls to LE where it says mom called about a gun to her head.? I did not see that in the call log . If it is there, he should have been arrested.

 

[human]

Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

http://www.businessinsider.com/park...ily-shops-doctored-cnn-emails-to-media-2018-2

The family of Colton Haab, a student at the Florida high school where a gunman killed 17 people last week, provided a doctored email between Haab's father, Glenn Haab, and a CNN producer to media outlets.

On Friday afternoon, Fox News and the HuffPost reached out to CNN to verify emails between the Haabs and Stevenson that they received from Colton.

A CNN source provided Colton's version of the emails, as well as their versions of all of the communications between the Haabs and CNN, to Business Insider.

In CNN's version of one email, Stevenson told Glenn that Colton needed to stick to a question that he and Stevenson "discussed on the phone that he submitted." But in the version of the email provided by Colton to Fox and HuffPost, the phrase, "that he submitted" is deleted.

What a strange thing for that family to do. Why would they lie like that?

 

[rsd1200]

RBBM. The guns available now are higher powered and can handle much more ammunition than ever before. Dealing with a shooter who had a pistol or a hunting rifle would definitely be easier than handling someone with a military grade weapon that has a huge magazine, and that can be basically upgraded to an automatic.

I believe that in part it is to do with disaffected young men, but the availability of the types of weapons around now can't be ignored.

Belltower shooter of 1966. Bolt action rifle. Sliced his wife's and mother's throats, located the right perch at the campus, and proceded to kill 14, & wounded 31. If one is adept with their firearm, and plans it out, they can do some massive damage. These aren't spur of the moment shootings. They've likely been fantasizing, planning, and target shooting for months, maybe longer. We have massive violence in our PG13 movies, more than rated R movies, and folks dont bat an eye over that, but a naked person? Katy bar the door.

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[human]

Belltower shooter of 1966. Bolt action rifle. Sliced his wife's and mother's throats, located the right perch at the campus, and proceded to kill 14, & wounded 31. If one is adept with their firearm, and plans it out, they can do some massive damage. These aren't spur of the moment shootings. They've likely been fantasizing, planning, and target shooting for months, maybe longer. We have massive violence in our PG13 movies, more than rated R movies, and folks dont bat an eye over that, but a naked person? Katy bar the door.

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Broken record, but those movies are available all over the world

 

[Gecko100]

I have heard nothing about increased access to mental health facilities or extra money to fund them. We know that all of the students and parents have been exposed to a trauma they never thought would happen in a million years. All of these school shootings result in the same issues. Many will go on to develop PTSD, anxiety, grief and depression. They will all require long term therapy, The numbers of school shootings yearly is going to add up to a massive amount of mental health victims, all with nowhere to go for help because there is nowhere. Who should pay for it?
Living in a different country where these issues do not occur, makes us feel so frustrated that it continues unabated. It feels like nothing is done, we all thought lessons had been learned from Columbine but evidently not. I would be totally against teachers being armed. The are there to teach kids, not to possibly kill them. That's not their remit and is asking too much. Where would they keep guns/ammunition away from students anyway?

 

[ohreally]

The discussion was that the school was responsible. I was responding about school only

Are there calls to LE where it says mom called about a gun to her head.? I did not see that in the call log . If it is there, he should have been arrested.

we are going around in circles. Please click on my screen name and you will see that all of my post are talking about law enforcement, not administration. My first comment mentions that he was never expelled followed by my thoughts on how law enforcement let him and the community down.
Googling NC (spelled out) holds gun to family members will give a list of several stories where both the aunt and first host family reported that he had held a gun to both his mother and brother. I am looking for the article that specifically states to thier heads. If I can find it I will post. Here is the link of a transcript of it being reported to the FBI. http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/FBI-transcript-02-23-2018.pdf

 

[rsd1200]

?? Confused, as seems to be par lately. Does it say this in the article you posted the link for? The way I read it, the examples are mainly under 18 years. I see nowhere that it shows the statistics you listed —- can you point me to that part of the article, please?

It does show this:
[FONT=&quot]Between 2013-15 Everytown identified 160 school shootings across 38 states. Nearly 53 percent of the identified shootings took place at K-12 schools, and 47 percent took place on college or university campuses.[/FONT]

I dont like to use Everytown for this rrason:


five of Everytown’s 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown’s 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.



www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-the...cec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.2b0ecbfe4eb0

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[rsd1200]

It is difficult to expel a kid with special needs. Rather , they moved him to another setting, Expulsion involves court. We do not know what his offenses at school were, do we?

I only speak about this as this is a problem around the US. Kids with severe needs who do not get help,

Because of privacy laws, the public has no clue as to what kids are like. The interventions they need but are not getting

Expulsion here requires only a school board. Expulsion and out of school suspension leave a kid, home, alone, most often, with lots of time on their hands. Read the Ten Lessons Learned. I was able to make mine sit in the break room at work some days, or file paperwork, but I wasn't always in the office, however, most folks cant do that.

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[rsd1200]

Broken record, but those movies are available all over the world

They ate rated differntly in EU. Sometimes the movies even have to cut violence there. Im not at my laptop but can provide a link, I did so in an earlier thresd, that showed un upswing of the violence over the past 20 years when as the pg13 movies became increasingly violent. Its not just movies. Its roumd the clock now. Desensitization is real.

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[kaen]

This is so horrifying. These guns make surviving an attack with this weapon so much lower. On this basis alone, these weapons should not be available to people.

"The AR-15, the semiautomatic rifle used at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in the deadliest high school shooting in U.S. history, uses bullets that can cause softball-sized exit wounds, leaving behind a significantly larger trail of mangled tissue compared to handgun bullets.

For trauma surgeons, the injuries are harder to repair. For victims, the chances of survival are lower.

“We’re surgeons, we’re not gods,” said Dr. Nicholas Namias, the director of Ryder Trauma Center at Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, which treats about 400 serious gunshot injuries every year. “If you have an injury from a bullet going through an artery at a low velocity, you repair it and go on your way. If you have a high velocity bullet, now you have a huge cavity. Imagine a cavity the size of your fist where everything that should have been there no longer is. How do you fix that?”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201949054.html#storylink=cpy

 

[MaryG12]

Maybe it is time to move out of our desensitized culture.

Time to get America's children grounded into reality.

Time to get real parenting at the forefront once again. No more "my child is my BFF", a married woman's BFF should be her husband (like I have), not her offspring. Time for not only discipline from parents and teachers, but also teaching children self-discipline, the key ingredient required for achieving many goals.

Time for parents to get off their mobile devices, spend quality time with the children. This is all part of the grounding into reality exercise. Forego a second full-time income if necessary, or only do part-time. Time for these people to ask themselves if they really need to eat out all the time, or have that second SUV (BTW nobody in my family has ever owned an SUV; we have had sedans, motorcycles, pickup trucks, even Jeeps. No SUV's). Time to reconsider vicarious living (do the children really want to have and experience the same exact stuff the parents did - usually frivolously? Children can and will develop their own interests in time). Limit children's exposure to popular culture, limit their time to social media. That is time better spent playing outside or hitting the books.

Most importantly (this may be painful for some Americans, certainly no one on WS I am sure):

Get involved with your children's education. Instill a love of reading and learning in them. Make sure the home has a conducive place for the children to study and enjoy a snack or two, undisturbed, no mobile devices or video games present. Expose the children to local interests like Boys Club/Girls Club, scouting, 4-H, etc. Have the children spend quality time outside playing outside, where they can burn off energy, and exercise. There are studies which show that regular exercise aids in the mental concentration and learning process. Structure is desirable for children, and necessary.

And, American public schools need to make Physical Education mandatory once again. it was mandatory back in the 1970's, time to make it mandatory in 2018 onward. Has anyone else noticed how there were very few school shootings during the time period phys ed was mandatory?

So, by the time children are firmly grounded in reality, get their homework done, extracurricular activities done, the family can sit down to a weekend afternoon treat of "Fast Bullets" or "The Blocked Trail".

The bottom line is:

Guns existed back in the 1970's and we did not have school shootings every week. Neither did we have threats made against the schools. We did not have social media back then, but anyone could have written notes, but did not. Education was still taken seriously back then. That is what we need now. Stop allowing the students to run the school, return public schools to local control, get actual learning back into the classrooms. Students don't need to be tested every week, they can return to the two times a year Ohio tests like we had when I was in school.

Guns are not going to be going away completely any time soon.

But we as a society can modify how our children our raised.

 

[human]

They ate rated differntly in EU. Sometimes the movies even have to cut violence there. Im not at my laptop but can provide a link, I did so in an earlier thresd, that showed un upswing of the violence over the past 20 years when as the pg13 movies became increasingly violent. Its not just movies. Its roumd the clock now. Desensitization is real.

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Here is a link but it is from 2013. I totally agree wuth the desensitization. The ratings are different and the ratings are for movie theaters.

I think since 2013 a lot if not most kids watch stuff on the internet. Where I live there is not a movie theatre but everyone somehow sees the latest films.

The rating system may be different but kids all over the world are watching these movies. And the most violent I have seen are Asian.
http://deadline.com/2013/11/gun-violence-in-movies-a-view-from-abroad-632569/

I asked Romer his conclusions about why actual gun violence is less prevalent in Europe, even though we see the same movies as our Americans counterparts. He acknowledged that was a “counter-example” that’s often brought up since the same effects don’t seem apparent in other countries where Hollywood films are widely consumed. “We have a huge number of guns in America that are stored in homes where kids can get access to them,” he said. In Europe and elsewhere, Romer surmises, “It’s less of a problem because there is not as much access to firearms.”

One other big difference here is that in some parts of Europe, movies are given harder ratings for violence. In the U.S., the MPAA ratings board seems to be more concerned with the depiction of nudity and sex. In the UK, the classifications board rated The Dark Knight a 12A, which brought an outcry that the knife violence was too graphic, a reaction that came after a spate of stabbings on the streets. When the UK gave Nicolas Winding Refn’s ultra-violent Only God Forgives an 18 rating (the equivalent of an NC-17), France gave it a -12 rating, which means it was deemed appropriate for any teenager. It did hold a special warning that it included “scenes that could shock a young audience.” France gave Django Unchained the same rating, while the UK gave Quentin Tarantino’s violent slave saga an 18. Filmmakers are given a chance to trim for a desired rating. It wasn’t until The Hunger Games lost seven seconds of violence that it was given a 15 certificate.

 

[human]

Maybe it is time to move out of our desensitized culture.

Time to get America's children grounded into reality.

Time to get real parenting at the forefront once again. No more "my child is my BFF", a married woman's BFF should be her husband (like I have), not her offspring. Time for not only discipline from parents and teachers, but also teaching children self-discipline, the key ingredient required for achieving many goals.

Time for parents to get off their mobile devices, spend quality time with the children. This is all part of the grounding into reality exercise. Forego a second full-time income if necessary, or only do part-time. Time for these people to ask themselves if they really need to eat out all the time, or have that second SUV (BTW nobody in my family has ever owned an SUV; we have had sedans, motorcycles, pickup trucks, even Jeeps. No SUV's). Time to reconsider vicarious living (do the children really want to have and experience the same exact stuff the parents did - usually frivolously? Children can and will develop their own interests in time). Limit children's exposure to popular culture, limit their time to social media. That is time better spent playing outside or hitting the books.

Most importantly (this may be painful for some Americans, certainly no one on WS I am sure):

Get involved with your children's education. Instill a love of reading and learning in them. Make sure the home has a conducive place for the children to study and enjoy a snack or two, undisturbed, no mobile devices or video games present. Expose the children to local interests like Boys Club/Girls Club, scouting, 4-H, etc. Have the children spend quality time outside playing outside, where they can burn off energy, and exercise. There are studies which show that regular exercise aids in the mental concentration and learning process. Structure is desirable for children, and necessary.

And, American public schools need to make Physical Education mandatory once again. it was mandatory back in the 1970's, time to make it mandatory in 2018 onward. Has anyone else noticed how there were very few school shootings during the time period phys ed was mandatory?

So, by the time children are firmly grounded in reality, get their homework done, extracurricular activities done, the family can sit down to a weekend afternoon treat of "Fast Bullets" or "The Blocked Trail".

The bottom line is:

Guns existed back in the 1970's and we did not have school shootings every week. Neither did we have threats made against the schools. We did not have social media back then, but anyone could have written notes, but did not. Education was still taken seriously back then. That is what we need now. Stop allowing the students to run the school, return public schools to local control, get actual learning back into the classrooms. Students don't need to be tested every week, they can return to the two times a year Ohio tests like we had when I was in school.

Guns are not going to be going away completely any time soon.

But we as a society can modify how our children our raised.

Don’t I wish! Testing is BIG BUSINESS. Textbooks are controlled for what can be taught. Texas is a big purchaser of textbooks so they have a lot of control as to what is taught.

Yes, phy ed and recess should be increased tremendously.

Parents should get out of kid’s sports.

There are no longer many empty spaces for kids to play in like when I was growing up.

Living on one income is next to impossible. Minimum wage does not get an apartment anywhere in the US. If one has a college degree, the student loans are tremendous especlaly when a couple has both gone to college.

A college degree now in many places is like a high school degree. A Master’s is now required. I know in Minnesota the two year RN degree is being phased out.

An ordinary car costs $20,000. Buying used is good if you know the previous owner. Otherwise, often you inherit huge maintenance costs and repair costs.

Parents now look at the teacher as the one at fault if Johnny is not learning. Well to do schools are very aware of litigation so things are handled with kid gloves.

Private schools have serious issues with funding and keeping those that fund happy.

Parents become very pushy because they want their kids to be stand outs in sports or in academics.

So many issues.

And because teaching is under attack, a huge percentage of teachers oewve the profession in the first five years.

 

[bears10]

Maybe it is time to move out of our desensitized culture.

Time to get America's children grounded into reality.

Time to get real parenting at the forefront once again. No more "my child is my BFF", a married woman's BFF should be her husband (like I have), not her offspring. Time for not only discipline from parents and teachers, but also teaching children self-discipline, the key ingredient required for achieving many goals.

Time for parents to get off their mobile devices, spend quality time with the children. This is all part of the grounding into reality exercise. Forego a second full-time income if necessary, or only do part-time. Time for these people to ask themselves if they really need to eat out all the time, or have that second SUV (BTW nobody in my family has ever owned an SUV; we have had sedans, motorcycles, pickup trucks, even Jeeps. No SUV's). Time to reconsider vicarious living (do the children really want to have and experience the same exact stuff the parents did - usually frivolously? Children can and will develop their own interests in time). Limit children's exposure to popular culture, limit their time to social media. That is time better spent playing outside or hitting the books.

Most importantly (this may be painful for some Americans, certainly no one on WS I am sure):

Get involved with your children's education. Instill a love of reading and learning in them. Make sure the home has a conducive place for the children to study and enjoy a snack or two, undisturbed, no mobile devices or video games present. Expose the children to local interests like Boys Club/Girls Club, scouting, 4-H, etc. Have the children spend quality time outside playing outside, where they can burn off energy, and exercise. There are studies which show that regular exercise aids in the mental concentration and learning process. Structure is desirable for children, and necessary.

And, American public schools need to make Physical Education mandatory once again. it was mandatory back in the 1970's, time to make it mandatory in 2018 onward. Has anyone else noticed how there were very few school shootings during the time period phys ed was mandatory?

So, by the time children are firmly grounded in reality, get their homework done, extracurricular activities done, the family can sit down to a weekend afternoon treat of "Fast Bullets" or "The Blocked Trail".

The bottom line is:

Guns existed back in the 1970's and we did not have school shootings every week. Neither did we have threats made against the schools. We did not have social media back then, but anyone could have written notes, but did not. Education was still taken seriously back then. That is what we need now. Stop allowing the students to run the school, return public schools to local control, get actual learning back into the classrooms. Students don't need to be tested every week, they can return to the two times a year Ohio tests like we had when I was in school.

Guns are not going to be going away completely any time soon.

But we as a society can modify how our children our raised.

My husband and I both have to get to work and are unable to carpool. We need two cars. He works 13 hours a day. If the man wants an SUV, who is anyone to tell him he can’t have one? Or that we can’t have two cars?

We are very involved in his kids education. My 14 year old stepdaughter is a bookworm and constantly has her nose in a book. Instead of it being time for “parents these days” to do this and do that, maybe it’s time for the older people to stop telling us how to raise our kids. FWIW- your generation raised us to be who we are. And yet your generation is constantly criticizing us. It’s crazy how the irony is lost on so many people.