Gun Control Debate #2

[EuTuCroquet?]

Almost nothing, imo.

IMO, that is a very loaded statement. What happens when an unarmed teacher fails to protect a classroom because the shooters knows which teachers are armed and which are not?

And why do we think shooters care if a teacher is unarmed? Has the threat of death stopped ANY shooter in the past? Plenty of shootings happened where there was substantial armed security.

What indicates that arming teachers will be effective?

 

[Tawny]

Regarding the 2nd Amendment. If it indicates we as Americans have the right to own firearms of any type, why is it illegal to own grenade launchers? Tanks? Anti-tank guns? Sawed off shotguns?

Why are some weapons of war outlawed, but not high capacity rapid fire (HCRF from here on out because ffs it's annoying typing that out every time lol) rifles?

 

[MaryG12]

IMO, that is a very loaded statement. What happens when an unarmed teacher fails to protect a classroom because the shooters knows which teachers are armed and which are not?

And why do we think shooters care if a teacher is unarmed? Has the threat of death stopped ANY shooter in the past? Plenty of shootings happened where there was substantial armed security.

What indicates that arming teachers will be effective?

Do you feel a teacher is better off not being able to protect her/his students?

Also, how would a shooter know who is armed and who isn't in a school? Would that piece of information be made public?

As for arming teachers - maybe it is better to have a gun for protection and not use it, rather than to not have a gun, and need to use it.

 

[Tawny]

1) Do you feel a teacher is better off not being able to protect her/his students?

2) Also, how would a shooter know who is armed and who isn't in a school? Would that piece of information be made public?

As for arming teachers - maybe it is better to have a gun for protection and not use it, rather than to not have a gun, and need to use it.

1) That is a loaded question meant to bait someone into saying something that can be twisted into something they do not mean. I am not going to entertain that kind of rhetoric.

2) Most shooters are students or former students. Have you ever witnessed the speed at which gossip type information spreads through a school? All it takes is a little bit of astute observation and anyone can figure out who has a firearm and who doesn't.

 

[kittythehare]

Do you feel a teacher is better off not being able to protect her/his students?

Also, how would a shooter know who is armed and who isn't in a school? Would that piece of information be made public?

As for arming teachers - maybe it is better to have a gun for protection and not use it, rather than to not have a gun, and need to use it.

Again it would need to be like for like.
Those ar 15 things are not exactly handbag size.. these shootings start unannounced.. a burst of fire into a classroom.. a concert venue, any public building and many private dwellings.. think about crowd control, observing safety protocols, and if you're not dead, taking a few pot shots yourself after his disappearing shadow, leaving your hysterical venue unattended and people needing reassurance alone?

 

[Tawny]

Again it would need to be like for like.
Those ar 15 things are not exactly handbag size.. these shootings start unannounced.. a burst of fire into a classroom.. a concert venue, any public building and many private dwellings.. think about crowd control, observing safety protocols, and if you're not dead, taking a few pot shots yourself after his disappearing shadow, leaving your hysterical venue unattended and people needing reassurance alone?

Exactly.

We want to arm teachers and guards with pistols versus HCRF rifle, which can literally mow down dozens at once. It's hard for ME to hit a moving target with my S&W 40, and I have a decade of military training going for me. This isn't Die Hard and no one is John McClane.

Being armed didn't seem to work for the best sniper in the history of the United States, and he KNEW the guy he was with was going to do something bad. That guy STILL got the jump on Chris Kyle and his armed friend. At a rifle range. Where everyone was armed. Why do we seem to expect more from schoolteachers?

 

[kittythehare]

Exactly.

We want to arm teachers and guards with pistols versus HCRF rifle, which can literally mow down dozens at once. It's hard for ME to hit a moving target with my S&W 40, and I have a decade of military training going for me. This isn't Die Hard and no one is John McClane.

Being armed didn't seem to work for the best sniper in the history of the United States, and he KNEW the guy he was with was going to do something bad. That guy STILL got the jump on Chris Kyle and his armed friend. At a rifle range. Where everyone was armed. Why do we seem to expect more from schoolteachers?

I get the sense that they're trying for a budget solution, instead of paying for effective solutions, just use who is there.. It's also an awfully condescending attitude towards both professions.. That is disturbing.
If people fought for mega funding for controlling the problem effectively, a whatever-it-takes approach, it would at least acknowledge the seriousness of the matter and the value of life..

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Poll: Seven in 10 favor tighter gun laws in wake of Parkland shooting

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/25/politics/cnn-poll-gun-control-support-climbs/index.html

Support for stricter gun laws has spiked to the highest level since 1993, and almost two-thirds say government and society can take action to prevent future mass shootings, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS.

The findings suggest the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, has shifted public opinion on gun laws in a way other recent mass shootings have not.

Overall, 70% now say they back stricter gun laws, up from 52% who said so in an October poll not long after a mass shooting in Las Vegas killed 58 people. Just 27% oppose stricter laws. Support for stronger gun laws has not been that high in CNN polling since a December 1993 survey conducted just after the Brady Bill was signed into law.

Public support for stronger gun laws has fluctuated over the years, peaking at 70% backing for stronger laws in 1993 and in the new poll and bottoming out at 44% support in a CNN/ORC poll in September 2014. Bumps in support for tighter laws following mass shootings have rarely lasted, but they have also rarely been as large as the shift seen in this poll.

more on SSRS polling

 

[rosemadderlake]

Do you feel a teacher is better off not being able to protect her/his students?

Also, how would a shooter know who is armed and who isn't in a school? Would that piece of information be made public?

As for arming teachers - maybe it is better to have a gun for protection and not use it, rather than to not have a gun, and need to use it.

This could backfire (no pun intended). For Tawny's reason outlined #2, Most shooters are students or former students. the armed teacher could easily be the first shot giving additional firepower to the shooter or a coordinated effort by another student?

What if a teacher accidentally kills a child in the line of fire in the effort to protect them?

What if a child picks up the teacher's handgun if they are shot, and accidentally kills self or another child or gets killed trying to be a hero?

How would a handgun be any match for an AR15?

 

[Tawny]

I get the sense that they're trying for a budget solution, instead of paying for effective solutions, just use who is there.. It's also an awfully condescending attitude towards both professions.. That is disturbing.
If people fought for mega funding for controlling the problem effectively, a whatever-it-takes approach, it would at least acknowledge the seriousness of the matter and the value of life..

It's infuriating that everyone wants a ton more funding to arm teachers but there were cuts after cuts after cuts of all the education programs, supplies, and resources that didn't tangibly prevent this kind of thing. Stuff like the arts, counseling, more teachers for smaller class sizes, etc.

And then yet again, veterans are marched out like some sort of political pawn, expected to be heroes AGAIN when cut after cut after cut has been made to our healthcare.

It appears America only cares about teachers and veterans when it makes them feel better about themselves.

 

[kittythehare]

It's infuriating that everyone wants a ton more funding to arm teachers but there were cuts after cuts after cuts of all the education programs, supplies, and resources that didn't tangibly prevent this kind of thing. Stuff like the arts, counseling, more teachers for smaller class sizes, etc.

And then yet again, veterans are marched out like some sort of political pawn, expected to be heroes AGAIN when cut after cut after cut has been made to our healthcare.

It appears America only cares about teachers and veterans when it makes them feel better about themselves.

That's what it looks like from the outside looking in too.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

‘Gun Control’ Has Outlived Its Usefulness

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/02/gun-control-has-outlived-its-usefulness.html

(snip)

Many are still wrapping their policy aims in an unhelpful phrase: “gun control.” This term has long been the default for well-meaning citizens who want to curb the killings that are a fact of American life. But it’s well past time to retire it and come up with something more effective.

The reason for doing so is simple: Many Americans don’t like government control — or, perhaps more importantly, the idea of government control.

(snip)

Most Americans ARE in favor of gun reform.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

More governors willing to consider gun law changes after Florida shooting

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...8e748f892c0_story.html?utm_term=.b85b73dc7089

 

[kittythehare]

‘Gun Control’ Has Outlived Its Usefulness

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/02/gun-control-has-outlived-its-usefulness.html

I found this earlier on twitter, one of the Parklands kids tweeted it. I thought it was interesting
https://qz.com/1214718/what-america...hree-important-words-in-the-second-amendment/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Republican governor: Florida shooting creates 'a window' to gun laws

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/flor...-reform-gun-laws-republican/story?id=53343980

“Everything kind of has its time,” Ohio Gov. John Kasich told ABC News Chief White House Correspondent Jonathan Karl in an interview that aired today on “This Week." “If we can move this thing significantly forward our country will be safer, our children will be safer, but we’ve got a moment now, a window.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Thought-provoking article, kitty. Thanks for the link! This line is great: "If she were taking a history exam, Loesch’s response would likely have scored an F."

I found this earlier on twitter, one of the Parklands kids tweeted it. I thought it was interesting
https://qz.com/1214718/what-america...hree-important-words-in-the-second-amendment/

 

[kittythehare]

Republican governor: Florida shooting creates 'a window' to gun laws

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/flor...-reform-gun-laws-republican/story?id=53343980

They have an audience too.
Parklands' kids twitter followers already outnumbered NRA followers as of day before yesterday.
Now is certainly the time.
But where is the money?

It is about money now, is it not?

 

[kittythehare]

Thought-provoking article, kitty. Thanks for the link! This line is great: "If she were taking a history exam, Loesch’s response would likely have scored an F."

I knew you would like it, I found it earlier and kept the link open for here..

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

School Shooting Victim Asks Tourists to Boycott Florida for Gun Reform

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nat...ycott-Florida-for-Spring-Break-475068663.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I posted a link to a similar story yesterday, but this is another source.

OREGON PASSES FIRST GUN LAW SINCE FLORIDA SHOOTING, AND IT'S A BIG DEAL FOR SINGLE WOMEN

http://www.newsweek.com/oregons-new-gun-law-big-step-single-women-818799

Despite two attempts from Republican lawmakers to send the bill back to committee, Oregon Democrats on Thursday passed the first gun control measure since the deadly shooting at a Florida High School—and advocates say the measure is a huge step forward for single women.

The legislation, which passed 16-13, is designed to close the so-called “boyfriend loophole,” a gap in the law that women’s advocacy groups have been trying to close for more than two decades. The legal blind spot, created by lax wording, allows unmarried men who live alone to slip through a federal law preventing convicted domestic abusers from purchasing guns.

(snip)

“More people in Oregon are killed by domestic abusers with guns than with all other weapons combined,” Andrea Platt, a Moms Demand Action volunteer in Oregon, told Newsweek. “So closing the boyfriend loophole is incredibly significant for us.”