Gun Control Debate #4

[bluesneakers]

It is hard to know what somewhere is like unless one has actually been there. Being from MN, I can say that MN is superior to most states. I can say that because I have been to other states.

Unless one has been to other countries, it is impossible to understand, I feel.

I feel that things are so superior. For instance, the Netherlands. The British Isles.

Minnesota:
Over the past two decades, hundreds of Minnesota law enforcement officers have been convicted of criminal offenses. Most were never disciplined by the state.
http://www.startribune.com/minnesot...of-serious-crimes-still-on-the-job/437687453/

Minnesota shooting deaths by police highest ever recorded. Dangerous year for cops, too.
https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/...st-ever-recorded-dangerous-year-for-cops-too/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

bbm

Nobody's really denying that, in my opinion. You're correct.

One person shared their perspective from their own, very personal experience.

Maybe belaboring this point, especially when the majority agree with it, starts to feel — in my opinion — a little like right-fighting.

I get that, and I read the comments after. I'm not denying Bears feelings or experiences either, I have been in that awful place too. Still have feelings that terrify me at times. However after my wife's suicide I did a lot of reading about it, because I blamed myself and wondered what I could have done. Having access to a gun increases the risk of suicide completion, and guns are one of the most lethal suicide methods out there. I'm not debating about feelings, as they are subjective, however academic evidence shows that removing methods of being able to suicide DO decrease suicides being completed.

Mental health care is lacking, not just in the US, and that has to be addressed. But it will take years to implement change in a system that is woefully underfunded, and still stigmatised. Stricter gun control can make actual changes a lot quicker than anything, but better mental health care is something that needs to be addressed too.

 

[human]

Minnesota:
Over the past two decades, hundreds of Minnesota law enforcement officers have been convicted of criminal offenses. Most were never disciplined by the state.
http://www.startribune.com/minnesot...of-serious-crimes-still-on-the-job/437687453/

Minnesota shooting deaths by police highest ever recorded. Dangerous year for cops, too.
https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/...st-ever-recorded-dangerous-year-for-cops-too/

Good info. My best friend since we were six years old was married to two cops. The second one quit because he could not stand being a cop.

Her first hubby used to hold a gun to her head. And she recently told me of a lot more abuse that she never shared until now.

She talked about what the police were like in our city because as a wife, she knew the inside stories. Lots and lots of really bad things including arson by a former classmate of ours and child sex abuse. I have known of these things for years,

Alcohlism is rampant. And everyone always said the best drugs could be gotten from the cops.

The Drug Task force was disbanded because of corruption to the max.

I will have to readjust my thinking because I thought all LE was like this.

Certainly I read on here about the different horrors done by LE all over the country. That is why I do not have a very good impresson of LE. I wonder how many LE report and deal with issues. Think of Clarke from Milwaukee. Or that treat Arapio or whatever his name is from Arizona.

 

[Blef]

A very interesting opinion piece on teachers having guns

http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article203844929.html

 

[human]

Minnesota:
Over the past two decades, hundreds of Minnesota law enforcement officers have been convicted of criminal offenses. Most were never disciplined by the state.
http://www.startribune.com/minnesot...of-serious-crimes-still-on-the-job/437687453/

Minnesota shooting deaths by police highest ever recorded. Dangerous year for cops, too.
https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/...st-ever-recorded-dangerous-year-for-cops-too/

This totally correlates with MN going for concealed carry. It was never allowed until a little while ago. People used to have to have a reason

 

[bluesneakers]

Good info. My best friend since we were six years old was married to two cops. The second one quit because he could not stand being a cop.

Her first hubby used to hold a gun to her head. And she recently told me of a lot more abuse that she never shared until now.

She talked about what the police were like in our city because as a wife, she knew the inside stories. Lots and lots of really bad things including arson by a former classmate of ours and child sex abuse. I have known of these things for years,

Alcohlism is rampant. And everyone always said the best drugs could be gotten from the cops.

The Drug Task force was disbanded because of corruption to the max.

I will have to readjust my thinking because I thought all LE was like this.

Certainly I read on here about the different horrors done by LE all over the country. That is why I do not have a very good impresson of LE. I wonder how many LE report and deal with issues. Think of Clarke from Milwaukee. Or that treat Arapio or whatever his name is from Arizona.

We all have our blindspots when it comes to our preferences, I think.

Which is why imo it's impressive to me how many Americans on this thread can take a critical look at our country and point out its flaws and discuss solutions. It's important, imo, we start from a realistic place not the "We're the greatest!" Like hey, I've got it good but I know my experience isn't the same as everyone's. America might be the greatest country for some, but not for all.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Excuse me. But, no skin in the game? Are you serious?

Where do you think criminals in Canada get their guns from?

It DIRECTLY effects us.

You just nailed it, CoolJ. Excellent point!

Everyone in this thread has skin in the game. I’m glad you’re here.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

We all have our blindspots when it comes to our preferences, I think.

Which is why imo it's impressive to me how many Americans on this thread can take a critical look at our country and point out its flaws and discuss solutions. It's important, imo, we start from a realistic place not the "We're the greatest!" Like hey, I've got it good but I know my experience isn't the same as everyone's. America might be the greatest country for some, but not for all.

Some might even call what you’re describing “American exceptionalism” — as a reactionary myth. The myth that we’re impervious to the problems of “other” countries because America and its history is so singularly unique.

Harrumph, I say. IMO

From wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The exact term "American exceptionalism" was occasionally used in the 19th century. In his The Yale Book of Quotations, Fred Shapiro notes "exceptionalism" was used to refer to the United States *and its self-image* by The Times of London on August 20, 1861. (snip)

In 1989, Scottish political scientist Richard Rose noted most American historians endorse exceptionalism. He suggests these historians reason as follows:

“America marches to a different drummer. Its uniqueness is explained by any or all of a variety of reasons: history, size, geography, political institutions, and culture. Explanations of the growth of government in Europe are not expected to fit American experience, and vice versa.[12]”

However, postnationalist scholars have rejected American exceptionalism, arguing the U.S. did not break from European history, and accordingly, the U.S. has retained class-based and race-based differences, as well as imperialism and willingness to wage war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

 

[rsd1200]

Guns are required by law in this American town


http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/nati...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


While Kennesaw is one of Georgia’s safer cities – with only one murder in the last six years – Graydon says the gun law may only be one reason why.

I lived 10 miles from there, at one point in my life. Everyone packed a firearm. I packed a knife at that time. Super nice folks. Never had any problem w/anyone.

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[bluesneakers]

Guns are required by law in this American town


http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/nati...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


While Kennesaw is one of Georgia’s safer cities – with only one murder in the last six years – Graydon says the gun law may only be one reason why.

How does the murder and crime rate in Kennesaw compare to cities of similar population? Is it exceptional, or typical?

 

[rsd1200]

I liked this quoted below from this piece. A sense of community definitely makes a difference, imo. How large is Kennesaw in population I wonder.

​

"City officials say their relationship with the community is a big factor in public safety."​

​

In 2016, it was around 33,000. It's in Cobb County, same county I lived in.

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[human]

How does the murder and crime rate in Kennesaw compare to cities of similar population? Is it exceptional, or typical?

No crime because according to the Sheriff . Quote:

In fact, Easterling says in Kennesaw, the residents love everybody.

And in Lake Wobegone, everyone is above average. Oh oh. Garrison Keillor.

 

[bluedivergirl]

Did you read the article about the guardians?

I think everyone who is older or has older parents can benefit from reading this.

Your children are powerless to stop them!

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights

Long long article.

———————-

.

RSBM.

I read it. I also knew about long before the article was published.

Your concern is very kind, but I like to cover my bases. We have protections in place.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Guns are required by law in this American town


http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/nati...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


While Kennesaw is one of Georgia’s safer cities – with only one murder in the last six years – Graydon says the gun law may only be one reason why.

Inside the Georgia Town Where Guns Are the Law
Jul 21, 2015 | 609 videos
Video by Alexandre Dostie and Nicolas Lévesque
In Kennesaw, Georgia, a good citizen is an armed citizen. In 1982, a law was passed that required each head of household to own a working firearm with ammunition. Nicolas Lévesque is a Canadian photographer and filmmaker who profiled the small town and captured the sweeping reality of gun ownership among its residents. "It's just like a tool," a Kennesaw police officer says in this short documentary. "You know, firearms are part of our culture," another resident says. "They're not dangerous, it's the people that get them that are dangerous."
Author: Nadine Ajaka
https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/398495/georgia-town-guns-are-law/


Short Film
In Guns We Trust
https://www.shortoftheweek.com/2015/06/08/guns-trust/

---
I remember seeing this Georgia town profiled on I believe it was 60 Minutes a few years ago. The short film is a fascinating profile of our culture, our history, and of a town. Imo

 

[rsd1200]

We all have our blindspots when it comes to our preferences, I think.

Which is why imo it's impressive to me how many Americans on this thread can take a critical look at our country and point out its flaws and discuss solutions. It's important, imo, we start from a realistic place not the "We're the greatest!" Like hey, I've got it good but I know my experience isn't the same as everyone's. America might be the greatest country for some, but not for all.

I love my country , and where I live. However many in my state struggle with poverty , I too, struggled, with poverty, when I left home at 18, but there were others who were worse off than me, so I didnt complain. Our elected officials are destroying our education system and teachers are prepared to strike. So I know we have our faults. I also know that other countries do as well. Finally, if it were today, rather than 10 years ago, I'd not allowed my child to travel overseas, even with companions. That is how I feel about some countries today, that I didnt feel that way, 10 years ago. So, it goes both ways.

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[rosemadderlake]

The Michigan Review
No More Sitting Ducks: An Argument for Concealed Carry at UM

Even the presence of assigned deputies at school is no guarantee of survival, as the Coral Springs Police Department confirms, alleging 4 deputies were in range, but didn’t confront Cruz at the scene of the crime. The result: 17 innocent souls lost, and not even a day went by before the NRA and law-abiding gun owners were villainized by the media. Understandably, outrage is a natural outgrowth of grief, but must be directed by reason and toward the killer, not toward law-abiding citizens – as if defending the Second Amendment makes them accessories to the crime. What should be an outrage is that, in the first 12.5 minutes of an active shooter crisis, everyone in the building is free game for the shooter.


It should comfort no one to know that, at the University of Michigan, there is an absolute ban on carrying a concealed weapon on campus, barring a waiver by the Chief of Police for “extraordinary circumstances”. That means even if student veterans, active military, or former police officers who are trained in the proper handling of firearms and hold a valid State license wish to carry, they can’t. I suppose the increasing occurrence of garden-variety crooks shooting up schools full of disarmed victims is not extraordinary enough. Short of shouting loudly, throwing items, running, or barricading yourself and others in a room, you would be utterly defenseless if an active shooter occurred at the University. This should alarm everyone.


What about the right to defend ourselves in the face of a mass shooting? What about our negative right to demand spaces in which our ability to defend ourselves is not so restricted? At UM, an unabashedly proud gun-free campus, one of too many likewise campuses in the US, this liberty has been marginalized. We can’t be afraid of ruffling the feathers of the gun-phobic UM command structure. We must get tough and end safe spaces for shooters, arguing to expand concealed carry on campus. We must be jealously protective of our own lives and those of our peers, and be prepared to violently defend them, lest we be prepared to violently lose them. The University of Michigan can no longer ask us to be sitting ducks.

https://www.michiganreview.com/no-sitting-ducks-argument-concealed-carry-um/


---

Bbm: This U. Of Michigan student makes a compelling case for what universities are facing. She also references Kennesaw Georgia.

 

[Jennifer17]

The Michigan Review
No More Sitting Ducks: An Argument for Concealed Carry at UM

Even the presence of assigned deputies at school is no guarantee of survival, as the Coral Springs Police Department confirms, alleging 4 deputies were in range, but didn’t confront Cruz at the scene of the crime. The result: 17 innocent souls lost, and not even a day went by before the NRA and law-abiding gun owners were villainized by the media. Understandably, outrage is a natural outgrowth of grief, but must be directed by reason and toward the killer, not toward law-abiding citizens – as if defending the Second Amendment makes them accessories to the crime. What should be an outrage is that, in the first 12.5 minutes of an active shooter crisis, everyone in the building is free game for the shooter.


It should comfort no one to know that, at the University of Michigan, there is an absolute ban on carrying a concealed weapon on campus, barring a waiver by the Chief of Police for “extraordinary circumstances”. That means even if student veterans, active military, or former police officers who are trained in the proper handling of firearms and hold a valid State license wish to carry, they can’t. I suppose the increasing occurrence of garden-variety crooks shooting up schools full of disarmed victims is not extraordinary enough. Short of shouting loudly, throwing items, running, or barricading yourself and others in a room, you would be utterly defenseless if an active shooter occurred at the University. This should alarm everyone.


What about the right to defend ourselves in the face of a mass shooting? What about our negative right to demand spaces in which our ability to defend ourselves is not so restricted? At UM, an unabashedly proud gun-free campus, one of too many likewise campuses in the US, this liberty has been marginalized. We can’t be afraid of ruffling the feathers of the gun-phobic UM command structure. We must get tough and end safe spaces for shooters, arguing to expand concealed carry on campus. We must be jealously protective of our own lives and those of our peers, and be prepared to violently defend them, lest we be prepared to violently lose them. The University of Michigan can no longer ask us to be sitting ducks.

https://www.michiganreview.com/no-sitting-ducks-argument-concealed-carry-um/


---

Bbm: This U. Of Michigan student makes a compelling case for what universities are facing. She also references Kennesaw Georgia.

She lost me when she wrote

. “33,808 traffic related deaths occurred, and an additional 10,839 were caused from drunk driving.” That same year, the FBI recorded that only 8,775 murders involved firearms. When you compare these statistics, from a total of 136,000,000 automobiles owned and a total of 270,000,000 firearms, the rate of murder per 100,000 firearms owned is one fiftieth the rate of murder per 100,000 automobiles.

Calling deaths in traffic accidents murder is dishonest.

 

[rosemadderlake]

She lost me when she wrote

. “33,808 traffic related deaths occurred, and an additional 10,839 were caused from drunk driving.” That same year, the FBI recorded that only 8,775 murders involved firearms. When you compare these statistics, from a total of 136,000,000 automobiles owned and a total of 270,000,000 firearms, the rate of murder per 100,000 firearms owned is one fiftieth the rate of murder per 100,000 automobiles.

Calling deaths in traffic accidents murder is dishonest.

I believe she is referring to drunk driving.

 

[bluesneakers]

She lost me when she wrote

. “33,808 traffic related deaths occurred, and an additional 10,839 were caused from drunk driving.” That same year, the FBI recorded that only 8,775 murders involved firearms. When you compare these statistics, from a total of 136,000,000 automobiles owned and a total of 270,000,000 firearms, the rate of murder per 100,000 firearms owned is one fiftieth the rate of murder per 100,000 automobiles.

Calling deaths in traffic accidents murder is dishonest.

The autos vs. guns argument never works for me although I know the guns rights advocates often fall back on it. But the thing is people use cars all day every day and no one dies. People don't buy cars with the intent to do someone harm. Cars are regulated and safety is legislated.

 

[rsd1200]

The Michigan Review
No More Sitting Ducks: An Argument for Concealed Carry at UM

Even the presence of assigned deputies at school is no guarantee of survival, as the Coral Springs Police Department confirms, alleging 4 deputies were in range, but didn’t confront Cruz at the scene of the crime. The result: 17 innocent souls lost, and not even a day went by before the NRA and law-abiding gun owners were villainized by the media. Understandably, outrage is a natural outgrowth of grief, but must be directed by reason and toward the killer, not toward law-abiding citizens – as if defending the Second Amendment makes them accessories to the crime. What should be an outrage is that, in the first 12.5 minutes of an active shooter crisis, everyone in the building is free game for the shooter.


It should comfort no one to know that, at the University of Michigan, there is an absolute ban on carrying a concealed weapon on campus, barring a waiver by the Chief of Police for “extraordinary circumstances”. That means even if student veterans, active military, or former police officers who are trained in the proper handling of firearms and hold a valid State license wish to carry, they can’t. I suppose the increasing occurrence of garden-variety crooks shooting up schools full of disarmed victims is not extraordinary enough. Short of shouting loudly, throwing items, running, or barricading yourself and others in a room, you would be utterly defenseless if an active shooter occurred at the University. This should alarm everyone.


What about the right to defend ourselves in the face of a mass shooting? What about our negative right to demand spaces in which our ability to defend ourselves is not so restricted? At UM, an unabashedly proud gun-free campus, one of too many likewise campuses in the US, this liberty has been marginalized. We can’t be afraid of ruffling the feathers of the gun-phobic UM command structure. We must get tough and end safe spaces for shooters, arguing to expand concealed carry on campus. We must be jealously protective of our own lives and those of our peers, and be prepared to violently defend them, lest we be prepared to violently lose them. The University of Michigan can no longer ask us to be sitting ducks.

https://www.michiganreview.com/no-sitting-ducks-argument-concealed-carry-um/


---

Bbm: This U. Of Michigan student makes a compelling case for what universities are facing. She also references Kennesaw Georgia.

All of the teachers that I know, would rather have that $ for training, and $ for firearms, put toward the funds the govt is slashing in our schools. Also, think like a shooter. A shooter who knows some teachers are armed, and the shooter has prepared for this for months. Who is going to be picked off first? Teachers and staff. There were over 20 LEOs onsite, at Columbine, within minutes, and they sat outside for 47 minutes. D&E committed suicide, two minutes, after the first two LEOs entered the bldg. Ive been reading some about school uniforms. Makes it harder to bring things in, in baggy pants and bulky sweaters and coats.

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