Gun Control Debate #4

[PrairieWind]

This parent should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Multiple guns, sitting loaded waiting to be taken, where a child can just take them. And one is a machine gun. And they had kits to change a semi to a fully auto! This is exactly why gun control isn't working in the US when adults are so damn irresponsible around guns. Surely all responsible gun owners are incensed by news like this!

Absolutely! The charge of possession of a fully automatic weapon should and I believe will result in a mandatory federal prison sentence.

 

[Elley Mae]

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

 

[Elley Mae]

Snip


According to our research, at least 59% of the 185 public mass shootings that took place in the United States from 1900 through 2017 were carried out by people who had either been diagnosed with a mental disorder or demonstrated signs of serious mental illness prior to the attack.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I don’t view a cnn poll as “public opinion”.

The polls (plural) cited were conducted by conducted by SSRS, among others

?

 

[Blef]

I don’t view a cnn poll as “public opinion”.

The poll was done by SSRS

 

[Blef]

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

The introduction of that piece absolutely says that perceptions of people with mental illness are wrong, so I don't see what you are seeing as you mentioned mental illness as a major problem. This actually backs up my argument from the introduction alone

 

[Blef]

Snip


According to our research, at least 59% of the 185 public mass shootings that took place in the United States from 1900 through 2017 were carried out by people who had either been diagnosed with a mental disorder or demonstrated signs of serious mental illness prior to the attack.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

You are countering my articles, some of which are fact based peer reviewed pieces, with an opinion piece in the LA Times, which actually has "opinion" in the link.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

From Elley Mae's link - http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

Actually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness

"Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."
This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.
But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

One of the primary reasons some are reluctant to establish the link between mass shootings and mental illness is a fear that it will lead to the stigmatization of such disorders. This concern is valid. The vast majority of people with mental disorders are not violent, after all.

 

[Blef]

I've noticed that these threads seem to concentrate on rampage killings (and I know that it's in the rampage killings category) but there are so many more shootings that could be prevented than just rampage killings if gun control was tightened. Spousal murders, gang crime, accidental shootings, suicides, car jackings etc. We can say there needs to be more efforts put in place to stop mass shootings, but there are also other types of shootings that with the right control on guns could be prevented too.

 

[Blef]

From Elley Mae's link - http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

Actually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness

"Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."
This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.
But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

One of the primary reasons some are reluctant to establish the link between mass shootings and mental illness is a fear that it will lead to the stigmatization of such disorders. This concern is valid. The vast majority of people with mental disorders are not violent, after all.

Again though, it's not just the mentally ill. And noticing weird behaviour and reporting it AFTER the event, won't prevent anything. Contolling access for those under 21 would be a far more important step, and obviously that is not happening.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Snip

According to our research, at least 59% of the 185 public mass shootings that took place in the United States from 1900 through 2017 were carried out by people who had either been diagnosed with a mental disorder or *demonstrated signs* of serious mental illness prior to the attack.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

Thanks for the link! IMO, it reinforces that our health care system, including access to quality, needed mental health care, is woefully inadequate.

It also proves, imo, we need to do more to restrict access to lethal firepower. The article’s data reflects a similar recommendation.

One thing the article suggests is universal background checks.

HERE IS THE CONTEXT from that story:

“According to our research, only one-third of the people who have committed mass shootings in the U.S. since 1900 had sought or received mental health care prior to their attacks, which suggests that most shooters did not seek or receive care they may have needed.

“This treatment gap is underscored by evidence showing that the U.S. has higher rates of untreated serious mental illness than most other Western countries. Additional research shows that the gap is even larger for males, who have committed 99% of the country's mass public shootings.

“Although the link between mass shootings and mental illness has only recently gained widespread recognition, the correlation itself is longstanding. Indeed, we see it in some of the earliest such shootings in the U.S. Gilbert Twigg, who opened fire on a concert crowd in Winfield, Kan., in 1903, killing nine, had displayed signs of paranoia beforehand. Howard Unruh, who shot and killed 13 people in Camden, N.J., in 1949, was later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. (Both were also Army veterans who had seen combat.)

“One of the primary reasons some are reluctant to establish the link between mass shootings and mental illness is a fear that it will lead to the stigmatization of such disorders. This concern is valid.

“The vast majority of people with mental disorders are not violent, after all.”

(snip)

“Conversely, some have insisted — wrongly, in our opinion — that mass public shootings are strictly a mental health problem rather than a gun problem. They, too, are on the wrong side of the evidence.

“It's possible for mass public shootings to be both a gun problem and a mental health problem.

“Increasing access to mental health care may reduce mass public shootings. But while such events are more commonplace than they should be, the reality may be that they're still too rare to develop and implement policies that reduce their incidence or severity specifically.

“Policymakers should therefore focus on strategies that have shown promise in reducing gun violence in general, like a federal universal background check.”

^^^^ THESE FOUR PARAGRAPHS ^^^^

 

[rsd1200]

Snip


According to our research, at least 59% of the 185 public mass shootings that took place in the United States from 1900 through 2017 were carried out by people who had either been diagnosed with a mental disorder or demonstrated signs of serious mental illness prior to the attack.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

The mentally ill are very good at covering the fact that they are mentally ill though, until, all the flags are missed. Especially teens. They don't talk to us much anyway.

DK's mother, on her son.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4_FkAWLYjQ

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Kids who are expelled or out of school suspended, have far too much time on their hands, unsupervised. Give them In School Suspension, or after school suspension. As I've said before, I was able to take my wayward one to work with me. Not everyone is that fortunate. You can't put a kid over 13, in daycare. Calling LE, or suspending a kid, over a fist fight, bringing to school, a plastic army man holding a rifle, or chewing your poptart into the shape of gun, is not good. It just ostracizes them further and gives them a lot of time on their hands to surf that net.

A student threatening mass murder is a student in crisis.Simply getting such youths out of school by suspension or expulsion does not resolve the crisis. These students need attention,not rejection. This does not mean that there should be no consequences for serious threats of violence. Students may need to be out of school for a variety of reasons, including their own mental health, as well as the safety of the school. While out of school, however, students on the verge of violence need to be monitored and receiving treatment.There are two points being made here:1. Suspensions or expulsions need to be used in the appropriate situations, not as knee-jerk responses to any possible threat.2. Suspending or expelling a student does not necessarily prevent violence. It may be a necessary response, but it should not be the only response.(1)

Our former POTUS got two gun laws through Congress during his two terms in office, and both gun laws that he signed, actually expanded the rights of gun owners in the United States. His attempts to limit the size of gun magazines, expand background checks of gun buyers and ban gun sales to buyers on terrorism watch lists all failed to pass.

Perhaps the most significant Obama gun control measure was not a law but a rule that required the Social Security Administration to report disability-benefit recipients with mental health conditions to the FBI’s background check system, which is used to screen firearm buyers. his successor, rescinded the rule in 2017.

That is not to say Obama was not critical of the use of guns to commit the numerous mass shootings and acts of terrorism during his tenure in the White House. Quite the opposite. Obama sharply criticized the gun lobby and the easy access to firearms.

Ten Lessons Learned
(1) https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf

List of Obama's Gun Control Measures and Executive Orders
(2) https://www.thoughtco.com/obama-gun-laws-passed-by-congress-3367595

Right. Blame Obama. Lol [emoji6][emoji854]

Those of us familiar with the school to prison pipeline and related data know these measures are to PREVENT shunting kids from schools en masse and find and provide them the help they need. It’s meant to reduce the overuse of what’s called “exclusionary discipline.”

Here’s a REALLY interesting report, imo. An investigation into Oklahoma City Public Schools into this topic for the US Commission on Civil Rights.

(downloadable pdf)
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/Oklahoma_SchooltoPrisonPipeline_May2016.pdf

ALSO ...

The federal law (Gun Free Schools Act of 1994) requires that children be referred to appropriate juvenile care IN ADDITION TO them being removed from that specific school. So it’s already mandated. I do wonder, however, what remedies have been developed district-to district, and how consistently it’s enforced (ie; see above link)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_Schools_Act_of_1994

“The Gun-Free Schools Act of 1994 requires each state receiving federal funds to have a state law in effect requiring local educational agencies to expel, for at least one year, any student who is determined to have brought a weapon to school.

“The one-year expulsion is mandatory, except when a chief administering officer of such local education agency may modify it on a case-by-case basis.[2]

“In addition, schools are directed to develop policies requiring referral to the criminal justice or juvenile delinquency system for any student who brings a firearm or weapon to school.[2]”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The mentally ill are very good at covering the fact that they are mentally ill though, until, all the flags are missed. Especially teens. They don't talk to us much anyway.

DK's mother, on her son.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4_FkAWLYjQ

Heartbreaking video, rsd. And you’re right. Thanks for the link. ❤️

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

BBM

Can we start a conspiracy theory? The NRA has been infiltrated by Russian moles in order to bring down the USA through gun violence. And unlike Alex Jones' garbage, that one makes sense and fits the facts.

It’s not a conspiracy theory. In fact, it’s a realistic probability.

Links:

FBI ‘investigating whether Russian money went to NRA’s campaign to help elect Donald Trump’

Alexander Torshin is former member of upper house in Russia’s parliament

https://www.google.com/amp/www.inde...gation-mueller-banker-money-a8225581.html?amp

Explainer:
Something stinks about the NRA's Russia story

http://theweek.com/articles/757832/something-stinks-about-nras-russia-story

 

[rsd1200]

Again though, it's not just the mentally ill. And noticing weird behaviour and reporting it AFTER the event, won't prevent anything. Contolling access for those under 21 would be a far more important step, and obviously that is not happening.

Closing the gunshow loophole and selling privately w/o a background check, would also help. EK and DH purchased their Tech 9 from their employer! He had to know they were school kids.

 

[Jennifer17]

From Elley Mae's link - http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

Actually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness

"Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."
This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.
But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

One of the primary reasons some are reluctant to establish the link between mass shootings and mental illness is a fear that it will lead to the stigmatization of such disorders. This concern is valid. The vast majority of people with mental disorders are not violent, after all.

Other countries have mentally ill people and do not have mass shootings. Or they don't anymore after gun regulations were tightened.

 

[human]

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

I cannot copy from your article, but in the first few writings, the common MISCONCEPTIONS are cited. That the mentally ill commit the shootings. It goes on to the cite the statistics of how something like 3% of shootings are by people with mental illness.

Is there anyone who can copy and paste so the MISCONCEPTION of the mentally ill committing these crimes can be addressed!

 

[human]

Snip


According to our research, at least 59% of the 185 public mass shootings that took place in the United States from 1900 through 2017 were carried out by people who had either been diagnosed with a mental disorder or demonstrated signs of serious mental illness prior to the attack.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

This article you posted says the exact opposite

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

 

[human]

The mentally ill are very good at covering the fact that they are mentally ill though, until, all the flags are missed. Especially teens. They don't talk to us much anyway.

DK's mother, on her son.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4_FkAWLYjQ

Here is what Elly’s research shows, however.

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099