Gun Control Debate #4

[rsd1200]

What is the definition of "mentally ill" which is being used here? What's the definition of "serious mental illness?"

How many first responders have been diagnosed with depression or anxiety?

How many teachers?

How many gun owners?

How many of us?

Exactly. That's why, once again, a broken record, that I like the Ten Lessons Learned (1). I've been going back through old school shootings and there is a definite commonality in all of the shooters. No matter their firearm of choice, and/or if they use homemade bombs, they all share an internal commonality. They may not be a person who'd you'd automatically flag as mentally ill and in need of lock down, but they may be dealing with things that they are talking to the wrong people about (via internet/friends), rather than parents, or counselors.

From: Humiliation, Rage and Toxic Masculinity.

[FONT=&amp]The shooter is almost always male. Of the past 129 mass shootings in the United States, all but three have been men. The shooter is socially alienated, and he can’t get laid. Every time you scratch the surface of the latest mass killing, in a movie theatre, a school, the streets of Paris or an abortion clinic, you find the weaponised loser. From Jihadi John of ISIS to Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris at Columbine, these men are invariably stuck in the emotional life of an adolescent. They always struggle with self-esteem – especially regarding women – and sometimes they give up entirely on the possibility of amorous fulfilment. There are different levels of tactical coordination, different ostensible grievances and different access to firearms, but the psyche beneath is invariably the same. (2)[/FONT]

Young men who cannot find a place in the socialisation process will often take up a disdainful hostility towards domestication itself. The terminal rebel takes shape. A mild version of this was articulated two decades ago in Chuck Palahniuk’s now classic novel Fight Club (1996) and its later movie adaptation. But far more chilling than alienated urbanites secretly fighting in basements is the rise of ISIS, Boko Haram and other violently antisocial brotherhoods.(2)

My view is that the lone-wolf doesn’t have a theory as much as a feeling. Those feelings of resentment are a combination of thwarted affective drives (limbic system) plus cognitions about culpability (neocortex). The weaponised loser tries to make sense of his emotions by supplying causal stories and moral judgments about why he doesn’t have the sexual satisfactions, wealth or status that he expects. The people he thinks do have those satisfactions and freedoms must be brought low or punished, and the unattainable women who withhold their pleasures must be humiliated and destroyed. (2)

(1) https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf
(2) https://aeon.co/essays/humiliation-and-rage-how-toxic-masculinity-fuels-mass-shootings

 

[Footwarrior]

Probably, but they only make up a small portion of all gun related deaths. When discussing gun control it seems to me there's a lot of discussion about assault weapons when they are only a small part of gun related deaths. imo

Last year one man in Las Vegas used assault weapons to kill 58 innocent people, wound over 500 and terrorize thousands in less than one hour.

To me that damn well matters. But apparently the gun lobby would rather we ignore it and pretend nothing can be done. Keep the rules in place that allowed the Las Vegas shooter to accumulate an arsenal without raising suspicion. Keep bump stocks legal because a small group of Americans need them so they can fire bullets faster than they can pull the trigger. Their needs are more important that the people killed, injured and traumatized in Las Vegas.

And as we all know, Las Vegas wasn't the only incident that we have seen recently.

Yes, the majority of murders are done with handguns. But many of us feel we can live our lives in a way that minimizes the chance that we will be a homicide victim. We can avoid interacting with criminals or high crime areas. Pick friends and partners that are not subject to bursts of anger and immaturity. Avoid keeping loaded firearms where they can be grabbed and fired in a moment of anger or despair.

We can't do much to avoid being the victim of a spree killer except locking ourselves in our homes and never leaving.

 

[rsd1200]

Murder
by State, Types of Weapons, 2016

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12

That was not surprising. I can fit mine in my front pocket and no one knows it's there. I hope no one ever has to know it's there, either.

 

[rsd1200]

Last year one man in Las Vegas used assault weapons to kill 58 innocent people, wound over 500 and terrorize thousands in less than one hour.

To me that damn well matters. But apparently the gun lobby would rather we ignore it and pretend nothing can be done. Keep the rules in place that allowed the Las Vegas shooter to accumulate an arsenal without raising suspicion. Keep bump stocks legal because a small group of Americans need them so they can fire bullets faster than they can pull the trigger. Their needs are more important that the people killed, injured and traumatized in Las Vegas.

And as we all know, Las Vegas wasn't the only incident that we have seen recently.

Yes, the majority of murders are done with handguns. But many of us feel we can live our lives in a way that minimizes the chance that we will be a homicide victim. We can avoid interacting with criminals or high crime areas. Pick friends and partners that are not subject to bursts of anger and immaturity. Avoid keeping loaded firearms where they can be grabbed and fired in a moment of anger or despair.

We can't do much to avoid being the victim of a spree killer except locking ourselves in our homes and never leaving.

The ATF approved bump stocks, because they did not mechanically change the firearm. There wasn't a designated spot for them so they had no ground to not allow them at the time. I've been around firearms for years and have owned one since I was around 19, or so, and so has my spouse (and that's been a long time ago). We'd never heard of them until the Vegas shooting. We asked our dealer about them, how they worked and such, and he said he put one on the shelf, when they came out, but no one was interested , until AFTER the Vegas shooting. Then everyone got curious. Most folks I know wouldn't have one b/c, they're not good for your firearm, is what we've been told, of course, if you're the Vegas shooter, you'er not worried about that.

There are also these trigger mods, that have been approved. This link, explains why we have the Tac Con 3-MR, drop-in, rapid fire trigger, for AR-15s, available to the public. The included video shows the firearm in standard fire mode, and in 3rd mode (which is still not considered automatic).

New firm Tactical Fire Control, Inc., or just Tac-Con for short, has developed a very interesting new trigger that lets people shoot AR rifle very, very fast.

http://www.guns.com/2013/11/20/tac-con-3mr-rapid-fire-non-nfa-trigger-ars-video/

Semi w/a Tac Con 3MR trigger.
https://youtu.be/eQtCTUq4Y_I

 

[rsd1200]

I said mental illness plays a role in mass shootings. Obviously not most gun related deaths.

Suicide, to me, often occurs, when someone needed someone to talk to, a therapist, counselor, or family physician. There is an element of a mental health issue in most suicides, or attempted suicides.

More than 60 percent of Americans who die from guns die by suicide, but that fact is often overlooked. Suicide gets a lot less attention than murders for a few reasons. One big one is that news organizations generally don’t cover suicides the way they do murders. There’s evidence that news attention around suicide can lead to more suicides. Suicide is more stigmatized and less discussed than homicide. (1)
--------------------
Whether the issue is police killings or mass shootings or street violence, those are tragic. But it turns out that gun suicides claim far more lives than any of those other issues. Suicides from guns make up nearly two-thirds of all gun deaths in the United States, and they overwhelmingly affect white men. That is according to a report by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence(2).

MARTIN: So the report recommends something called an extreme risk protection order. Can you tell me a little bit about what that is?


BROWN: Yes. An extreme risk protection order is a legislative and legal vehicle that allows family members and police if they see someone in crisis, someone who's exhibiting behaviors that indicate they're a danger to themselves or others to get a court order and remove guns temporarily from that person's home. (2)

(1) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html

(2) https://www.npr.org/2017/09/30/5547...cides-are-even-more-common-than-gun-homicides

 

[PrairieWind]

Murder
by State, Types of Weapons, 2016

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12

That is an interesting chart. Look at Wyoming, a gun state. The most common murder weapon is knife or other cutting instrument. Surprising.

 

[human]

That is an interesting chart. Look at Wyoming, a gun state. The most common murder weapon is knife or other cutting instrument. Surprising.

Hm. Only 19 murders and 8 knife, 6 firearm. I wonder where they occurred.

 

[flourish]

In 2012, the overall age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States was 12.6 per 100,000 population. Among states, Wyoming had the highest suicide rate...

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm


Wyoming is an interesting state. My ex grew up there and lost many friends to suicide.

The states with the most suicides are out West... Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, and Utah, while the lowest are in the East...D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. (From same link)

Anyone have any thoughts as to why that may be?

 

[flourish]

Hm. Only 19 murders and 8 knife, 6 firearm. I wonder where they occurred.

Wyoming is sparcly populated... Idk if or how their murder rate compares per capita.

 

[flourish]

Suicide, to me, often occurs, when someone needed someone to talk to, a therapist, counselor, or family physician. There is an element of a mental health issue in most suicides, or attempted suicides.

More than 60 percent of Americans who die from guns die by suicide, but that fact is often overlooked. Suicide gets a lot less attention than murders for a few reasons. One big one is that news organizations generally don’t cover suicides the way they do murders. There’s evidence that news attention around suicide can lead to more suicides. Suicide is more stigmatized and less discussed than homicide. (1)
--------------------
Whether the issue is police killings or mass shootings or street violence, those are tragic. But it turns out that gun suicides claim far more lives than any of those other issues. Suicides from guns make up nearly two-thirds of all gun deaths in the United States, and they overwhelmingly affect white men. That is according to a report by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence(2).

MARTIN: So the report recommends something called an extreme risk protection order. Can you tell me a little bit about what that is?


BROWN: Yes. An extreme risk protection order is a legislative and legal vehicle that allows family members and police if they see someone in crisis, someone who's exhibiting behaviors that indicate they're a danger to themselves or others to get a court order and remove guns temporarily from that person's home. (2)

(1) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html

(2) https://www.npr.org/2017/09/30/5547...cides-are-even-more-common-than-gun-homicides

Okay so that's a start to answering where the line is..."danger to oneself or others" with a court order.

Does that apply if a minor is considered a danger and the parents have a firearm in the home?

 

[Jennifer17]

Wyoming is sparcly populated... Idk if or how their murder rate compares per capita.

According to Wiki, among the highest per capita.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yeah, as the notes on this data clearly state, the information is incomplete (which isn't uncommon). Womp-womp.

The chart/link is murder only, and ONLY includes murders "for which supplemental homicide data were received."

That is an interesting chart. Look at Wyoming, a gun state. The most common murder weapon is knife or other cutting instrument. Surprising.

This report shows Wyoming as the No. 11 highest-ranking state in the 50-state list of overall gun violence.

Surprise!!

24/7 Wall St. reviewed data on gun violence by state based on the latest information from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which tracks the number of gun-related deaths in each state.


11. Wyoming

Firearm deaths per 100,000 people: 17.5 per 100,000

Total firearm deaths 2016: 101 (suicides: 87, homicides: N/A)

Violent crime rate: 244.2 per 100,000 (11th lowest)

Permit required to carry handgun: No (Wyoming residents do not have to obtain any type of permit/license from the state to exercise their Second Amendment rights.)

Poverty rate: 11.3% (14th lowest)

 

[PrairieWind]

With such a small population, an increase of one or two murders can adjust the murder RATE drastically. So in that regard, its a little hard to make comparisons unless you see that trend over time.

Wyoming has always had a very high suicide rate. Boom and bust economy, isolation, brutal weather at times.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Does America have current standards now, or did Trump/Congress literally revoke a huge one earlier in 2017??

What's left standing, legally speaking? Anyone here know?


TRUMP OVERTURNS A MENTAL HEALTH REGULATION ON GUN PURCHASES

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237

Okay so that's a start to answering where the line is..."danger to oneself or others" with a court order.

Does that apply if a minor is considered a danger and the parents have a firearm in the home?

Suicide, to me, often occurs, when someone needed someone to talk to, a therapist, counselor, or family physician. There is an element of a mental health issue in most suicides, or attempted suicides.

More than 60 percent of Americans who die from guns die by suicide, but that fact is often overlooked. Suicide gets a lot less attention than murders for a few reasons. One big one is that news organizations generally don’t cover suicides the way they do murders. There’s evidence that news attention around suicide can lead to more suicides. Suicide is more stigmatized and less discussed than homicide. (1)
--------------------
Whether the issue is police killings or mass shootings or street violence, those are tragic. But it turns out that gun suicides claim far more lives than any of those other issues. Suicides from guns make up nearly two-thirds of all gun deaths in the United States, and they overwhelmingly affect white men. That is according to a report by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence(2).

MARTIN: So the report recommends something called an extreme risk protection order. Can you tell me a little bit about what that is?

BROWN: Yes. An extreme risk protection order is a legislative and legal vehicle that allows family members and police if they see someone in crisis, someone who's exhibiting behaviors that indicate they're a danger to themselves or others to get a court order and remove guns temporarily from that person's home. (2)

(1) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html

(2) https://www.npr.org/2017/09/30/5547...cides-are-even-more-common-than-gun-homicides

I said mental illness plays a role in mass shootings. Obviously not most gun related deaths.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

... and easy access to and high ownership of firearms.

Guns and suicide: A fatal link

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/

With such a small population, an increase of one or two murders can adjust the murder RATE drastically. So in that regard, its a little hard to make comparisons unless you see that trend over time.

Wyoming has always had a very high suicide rate. Boom and bust economy, isolation, brutal weather at times.

 

[rsd1200]

Hm. Only 19 murders and 8 knife, 6 firearm. I wonder where they occurred.

I just realized that Florida is completely missing.

 

[Jennifer17]

I just realized that Florida is completely missing.

Not allowed to keep records??

 

[Bernina]

Got a 3 page letter today from the NRA today, basically begging “me” to join and to also fill out the survey they also sent along with the letter. I say “me” bc it’s obviously a mass mailing.

Yep, don't know if it's a "past members" and/or they're sending to everyone who has an address.
I got one with my (previous married) name/current resident.
Went in the recycling barrel at the post office where it was chock full of them...........just an observation.

 

[bears10]

Yep, don't know if it's a "past members" and/or they're sending to everyone who has an address.
I got one with my (previous married) name/current resident.
Went in the recycling barrel at the post office where it was chock full of them...........just an observation.

I was never a member.. and they addressed me as Mr, but I am very much a female.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Not allowed to keep records??

Reporting isn’t mandatory, iirc