Gun Control Debate #4

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Geez. Bears are especially deadly when they’re armed with AR-15s. Why isn’t anyone talking about that?!?

藍[emoji38][emoji854]

Right to bear arms or bear kills? It's getting confusing.

 

[rsd1200]

Obviously you know I'm a Brit, living in Canada. I've also visited the US a number of times. The people there are amazing, you are so proud of your country, you have the most amazing hospitality, I love the people that I met in the US. However I've never been as scared to walk around as I was in the US. The knowledge that anyone at any time could have a gun, concealed on them, and could use it terrified me. I certainly looked at people differently as I didn't know if a gun was going to be pulled at any moment in time. The advice we got when I went to Florida was to avoid walking at night, especially through parking lots, as there had been so many armed robberies of tourists. I felt like that was so weird. To be scared to walk down a street is something I hadn't experienced. I'm not saying by any means that the UK is completely safe. Of course we have violent crime. But a gun has such a finality around it. Knife crime is a problem in the UK and the police run weapons amnesties to collect in knives and other weapons, and they work. Of course there are still people who will carry a knife in the UK but just about every police force report positive results when they run the knife amnesties.

Don't think I'm knocking the US. As I said, it is full of amazing, brilliant people who have no intention of ever hurting anyone. However the prospect of a gun being pulled out in public by just about anyone is scary, when you have experience of societies where it is almost unheard of.

BBM

If I did, I had forgotten, or just missed it. I've always wanted to visit your country, and hope to visit Moskoka, Canada. It's not too far of a drive for us, and it looks beautiful. I like going by vehicle. Getting there is half the fun. i guess growing up in America, I just don't feel it.

I've never really been afraid. Maybe it's because I've traveled around quite a bit. I've gone out wandering around the streets of NYC, alone, at night. We've eaten in diners on what we were told was the sketchy side of town, in Albuquerque, NM. We told our host where we ate and she was quite surprised at where we'd ventured. She'd lived there 20 years and never went to "that side of town". I go out at midnight and sit on the beach, or pier, and watch for night fishermen to real in the big ones. I've not been armed during any of those excursions, nor any of my others. I carry a firearm with me when we drive due to something possibly happening to our vehicle, and we could be stranded. Sitting ducks. Other than that, I rarely carry. I'm just not that afraid of folks. If it's my time, it's my time. I admit that I do try to check the nearest exit, in the event I might need to evacuate a building quickly, but I forget that sometime.

With that said, and not meaning this to be snarky at all.

The Canadian Site that lists travel risks, states the following about Violent Crime in America:

Exercise normal security precautions

The possession of firearms and the frequency of violent crime are generally more prevalent in the United States than in Canada.
Within large metropolitan areas, violent crime more commonly occurs in economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods, particularly from dusk to dawn, and often involves intoxication. Incidents of violent crime are mainly perpetrated by gangs or members of organized crime groups.

Incidents of mass shooting occur, but account for a small percentage of homicide deaths in the country. The likelihood of a tourist being a victim of such an incident is low.

While violent crime rarely affects tourists, be mindful of your surroundings, particularly at night. Verify official neighbourhood crime statistics before planning an outing. If you are threatened by robbers, stay calm and do not resist.

For France (A country I allowed my then, teenager, to go to, a few years ago. She'd not have gone if it were today.)

Exercise a High Degree of Caution.

Petty crimes (pickpocketing and purse snatching) occur in major tourist areas, in department stores, in train and bus stations and aboard public transport, especially in larger cities. Purse snatchers operate both on foot and on motorcycles. These thieves are very skilled and often work in groups. Limit the use of mobile phones while on public transportation to avoid attracting attention.
There have been reports of violent attacks on tourists by groups of young people. These usually take place at night around major tourist attractions and railway stations in Paris, the trains (RER) connecting Paris to its suburbs and at main railway stations in other large cities.

Government of Canada Travel Advice and Advisories
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories

 

[ohreally]

Have you ever objectively looked at your risks though, and the odds of something happening to you in Europe vs. the odds of something happening to you in the USA? I know many people who have cancelled trips to Europe and the UK because they see the sensationalized stories about terror attacks and that makes them "feel" like they would be less safe on European soil. I agree those stories are terrifying, like the truck in Nice or the bombings in London, and I know feeling fear is a very real experience, but that doesn't mean it's right. However looking at the facts sometimes means realizing we're not as safe in the USA as they think we are, which isn't a fun fact to have to face either.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/France/United-States/Crime


https://www.criminaljusticedegreehub.com/violent-crime-us-abroad/

Homicide Rate:

USA 5.3 per 100k

Germany .8 per 100k
Spain .7 per 100k
Norway .5 per 100k
France: 1.5 per 100k

Interactive map: http://homicide.igarape.org.br/

https://www.economist.com/news/inte...ome-hints-how-avoid-being-bumped-dicing-death

These are more the stats I look at concerning bombings. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-terror-problem-united-states-isis/463554001/ My concern is not the murder rates, my concern is the mass murders.

 

[Tricia]

AAAAA Hello? Gun Control Debate thread #4 where did you go?

Remember I said I was going to timeout anyone who went off topic?

Just saying.

 

[MaryG12]

Oh dear lord! :silly:

"DeVos herself has also drawn ire for her public commentary on guns, most notoriously for her suggestion at her 2017 confirmation hearing that guns might have a place in schools because of the threat of grizzly bears."

WTH?!

That article mentions a Wyoming school building a fence around it to keep out wildlife like grizzlies. I have to wonder if something was misreported or taken out of context or both. Grizzlies are only found in AK, WY, MT, ID, and WA in the USA.

 

[flourish]

Our base was an hour and half drive from Munich. My siblings were in high school at Munich AFB. They stayed during the week at the school and came home on weekends. I only brought it up because i believe we all have different life experiences, and I believe that people take thier sides based on thier experiences.
Those that have been raised around guns and feel protected by them are going to be on the pro gun rights, also hunters are going to be pro gun. Those that have not been around guns are not going to be for gun rights.
I have had a lot of my British relatives come and visit us in Florida, and none of them has said they were worried about visiting because of guns.

My husband knows I refuse to set foot in Florida. He lived there for a year in his 20s and liked it but I'm pretty sure he just partied and went to Greateful Dead shows, so I'm not sure that counts lol.

Anyway, guns and gun control.

To reiterate my opinions...
-- I support law abiding citizens' ongoing right to own firearms.
--I strongly support increased regulations, which imo is okay as far as 2nd amendment goes as it states "well regulated."
--Thurston High School and Umpqua University shootings were local to me... Lots of minimal degrees of separation involved
--I've been a classroom teacher and don't support arming teachers, but am fine with the idea of increasing staff who are solely dedicated to student safety, not instructors.
--Suicide via firearm need to be spoken about more than it is. Everyone has their own backgrounds and experiences they may or may not choose to share here, but the studies do show a big correlation between access to guns and completed suicides. If people aren't willing to participate in studies and self report, then it's difficult to get the best, most accurate data. The stigmas still exist big time and that needs to change.
--On that note, I've lost an uncle and brother to suicide via firearm, and nearly lost another close family member who amazingly survived the gunshot.
--Mr flourish was shot as a child by another child and it scares me that a couple inches and I would have never met my true love.
--Methods which require more planning and preparation than a firearm offer time to de-escalate and reconsider, where a firearm is easy to use, quick, and doesn't allow for many second chances. I know one of my biggest fears when I was planning my own demise was that I would be unsuccessful and end up wounded but alive. Usually a firearm is a pretty sure thing. Usually.
--Many people who are determined to complete suicide will do so, but I feel it's cold and incorrect to discount the ones who don't end up completing. We certainly don't want anyone to feel any more shame or as though they "failed" because their attempt wasn't successful and they didn't attempt again!


(Edited on account of I knew I spelled something wrong!)

 

[flourish]

Now that I am home from work and done with supper:







Kennesaw has an approximate population of 32,000 according to the city's official site:


https://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/about-kennesaw/


I agree about the sense of community, kind of like Mayberry (remember "The Andy Griffith Show"?) where everyone played an active role, contributed something meaningful to the community. People who spent time with each other in person (granted, no electronic devices in Mayberry outside of the tv set; phones were rotary and had an operator) spent time doing things together. Real quality time spent with family and friends. There seems to be too little of that nowadays.







Ah, thank you Rsd1200, I was hoping someone from Kennesaw or nearby would give some input.












OK, for example, Rexburg, ID, a city of 26,733, the 2014 report has the following:


Violent crime: 9
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter: 0


Please see attached image for complete details:

From: https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/


This link is a very handy tool, it lets you generate reports on any crime data you are seeking.

Lol. Rexburg, Idaho. Locally known as "The Stepford Town." Mostly on account of the rather.... homogeneous population... Hint note the University that's there. I'm not sure that particular town can be considered a fair comparison to anything. No offense to Rexburg, it's a nice little place to visit.
Eta and no offense to you, Mary, I'm poking fun at Rexburg alone.

 

[bluesneakers]

WTH?!

That article mentions a Wyoming school building a fence around it to keep out wildlife like grizzlies. I have to wonder if something was misreported or taken out of context or both. Grizzlies are only found in AK, WY, MT, ID, and WA in the USA.

Betsy DeVos suggests guns be allowed in schools threatened by grizzly bears

DeVos, a billionaire and Republican mega-donor, made the comments in response to a question from Chris Murphy, a senator from Connecticut who has led a push for stricter gun laws. Murphy, a Democrat, asked DeVos if she believed guns “have any place in or around schools?”

“I think that’s best left for locales and states to decide,” DeVos responded.

When pressed for a more definitive answer, Trump’s pick for education secretary cited a school in Wyoming surrounded by fences to protect children from grizzly bears.

“I think probably there, I would imagine that there’s probably a gun in the school to protect from potential grizzlies,” DeVos said.

 

[flourish]

WTH?!

That article mentions a Wyoming school building a fence around it to keep out wildlife like grizzlies. I have to wonder if something was misreported or taken out of context or both. Grizzlies are only found in AK, WY, MT, ID, and WA in the USA.

Oh I thought they had them up in the Yellowstone area? Near Idaho and Montana kinda?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

These are more the stats I look at concerning bombings. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-terror-problem-united-states-isis/463554001/ My concern is not the murder rates, my concern is the mass murders.

383 deaths related to terror/extremist events in Europe in 1 year?

Yep, I worry about the rise in extremist violence here in America, too.

And bombings aren’t the problem with the extremists here, apparently.

_________


ADL Report: White Supremacist Murders More Than Doubled in 2017

https://www.adl.org/news/press-rele...supremacist-murders-more-than-doubled-in-2017

New York, NY, January 17, 2018… The number of white supremacist murders in the United States more than doubled in 2017 compared to the previous year, far surpassing murders committed by domestic Islamic extremists and making 2017 the fifth deadliest year on record for extremist violence since 1970.

In its annual assessment of extremist-related killings, the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism found white supremacists and other far-right extremists were responsible for 59 percent of all extremist-related fatalities in the U.S. in 2017, up dramatically from 20 percent in 2016.

White supremacists were directly responsible for 18 of the total 34 extremist-related murders in 2017, according to the new ADL report, Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2017. A total of nine deaths were linked to Islamic extremists.

__________


... And guns kill more people in America each year than terror attacks do worldwide.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/202871/number-of-fatalities-by-terrorist-attacks-worldwide/

“The statistic shows the number of deaths due to terrorism worldwide between 2006 and 2016. 25,621 people were killed by terrorists in 2016. The number of terrorist attacks worldwide declined between 2006 and 2016. In 2006, about 14,371 terrorist attacks were counted, while in 2016, 11,072 terrorist attacks were counted.”

_________


That’s almost as many terrorist-related deaths worldwide as the number of Americans who completed suicide by firearm in a year!

Number of firearm suicide deaths: 22,018

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

 

[ohreally]

Now that I am home from work and done with supper:







Kennesaw has an approximate population of 32,000 according to the city's official site:


https://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/about-kennesaw/


I agree about the sense of community, kind of like Mayberry (remember "The Andy Griffith Show"?) where everyone played an active role, contributed something meaningful to the community. People who spent time with each other in person (granted, no electronic devices in Mayberry outside of the tv set; phones were rotary and had an operator) spent time doing things together. Real quality time spent with family and friends. There seems to be too little of that nowadays.







Ah, thank you Rsd1200, I was hoping someone from Kennesaw or nearby would give some input.












OK, for example, Rexburg, ID, a city of 26,733, the 2014 report has the following:


Violent crime: 9
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter: 0


Please see attached image for complete details:

From: https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/


This link is a very handy tool, it lets you generate reports on any crime data you are seeking.

There are 5 cities in the US that require gun ownership. https://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/28/5-american-cities-that-require-you-to-own-a-gun/21439364/

 

[flourish]

There are 5 cities in the US that require gun ownership. https://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/28/5-american-cities-that-require-you-to-own-a-gun/21439364/

I have to assume they are either unfriendly to felons there or there are exceptions?

 

[MaryG12]

Suspects on the loose in Sarasota park shooting


http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/susp...cle_ad9874a6-231e-11e8-ae81-f386e95e065d.html


Reportedly the suspects fired a gun at someone inside the park and then ran off into the woods.


Urfer Park, at the corner of Honore Ave. and Bee Ridge Rd.


A very nice family park with a huge playground for children, a ball field, lots of walking/hiking/bicycling trails and a personal favorite sanctuary of ours.


I need to get outta here

:scared: :scared:

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

383 deaths related to terror/extremist events in Europe in 1 year?

Yep, I worry about the rise in extremist violence here in America, too.

And bombings aren’t the problem with the extremists here, apparently.

_________


ADL Report: White Supremacist Murders More Than Doubled in 2017

https://www.adl.org/news/press-rele...supremacist-murders-more-than-doubled-in-2017

New York, NY, January 17, 2018… The number of white supremacist murders in the United States more than doubled in 2017 compared to the previous year, far surpassing murders committed by domestic Islamic extremists and making 2017 the fifth deadliest year on record for extremist violence since 1970.

In its annual assessment of extremist-related killings, the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism found white supremacists and other far-right extremists were responsible for 59 percent of all extremist-related fatalities in the U.S. in 2017, up dramatically from 20 percent in 2016.

White supremacists were directly responsible for 18 of the total 34 extremist-related murders in 2017, according to the new ADL report, Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2017. A total of nine deaths were linked to Islamic extremists.

__________


... And guns kill more people in America each year that terror attacks do worldwide.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/202871/number-of-fatalities-by-terrorist-attacks-worldwide/

“The statistic shows the number of deaths due to terrorism worldwide between 2006 and 2016. 25,621 people were killed by terrorists in 2016. The number of terrorist attacks worldwide declined between 2006 and 2016. In 2006, about 14,371 terrorist attacks were counted, while in 2016, 11,072 terrorist attacks were counted.”

_________


That’s almost as many terrorist-related deaths worldwide as the number of Americans who completed suicide by firearm in a year!

Number of firearm suicide deaths: 22,018

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

How dare you argue with numbers that make sense?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

How dare you argue with numbers that make sense?

Ha ha! ❤️ Guilty.

They do put things in perspective, don’t they!

 

[bears10]

My husband knows I refuse to set foot in Florida. He lived there for a year in his 20s and liked it but I'm pretty sure he just partied and went to Grateful Dead shows, so I'm not sure that counts lol.

Anyway, guns and gun control.

To reiterate my opinions...
-- I support law abiding citizens' ongoing right to own firearms.
--I strongly support increased regulations, which imo is okay as far as 2nd amendment goes as it states "well regulated."
--Thurston High School and Umpqua University shootings were local to me... Lots of minimal degrees of separation involved
--I've been a classroom teacher and don't support arming teachers, but am fine with the idea of increasing staff who are solely dedicated to student safety, not instructors.
--Suicide via firearm need to be spoken about more than it is. Everyone has their own backgrounds and experiences they may or may not choose to share here, but the studies do show a big correlation between access to guns and completed suicides. If people aren't willing to participate in studies and self report, then it's difficult to get the best, most accurate data. The stigmas still exist big time and that needs to change.
--On that note, I've lost an uncle and brother to suicide via firearm, and nearly lost another close family member who amazingly survived the gunshot.
--Mr flourish was shot as a child by another child and it scares me that a couple inches and I would have never met my true love.
--Methods which require more planning and preparation than a firearm offer time to de-escalate and reconsider, where a firearm is easy to use, quick, and doesn't allow for many second chances. I know one of my biggest fears when I was planning my own demise was that I would be unsuccessful and end up wounded but alive. Usually a firearm is a pretty sure thing. Usually.
--Many people who are determined to complete suicide will do so, but I feel it's cold and incorrect to discount the ones who don't end up completing. We certainly don't want anyone to feel any more shame or as though they "failed" because their attempt wasn't successful and they didn't attempt again!

I wrote up a long post but deleted it because I don’t feel like being ganged up on again like last night. But let’s get one thing straight - I NEVER would “discount” anyone who attempted suicide and survived. I can’t help but feel my comments were taken extremely out of context.

FWIW, your biggest fear was surviving, but mine was what my family would have to deal with in the aftermath. Which is why a gun was never a consideration.

 

[ohreally]

I have to assume they are either unfriendly to felons there or there are exceptions?

From what I read there are exempions for felons, menttalnillness and concentious observers.

 

[flourish]

I wrote up a long post but deleted it because I don’t feel like being ganged up on again like last night. But let’s get one thing straight - I NEVER would “discount” anyone who attempted suicide and survived. I can’t help but feel my comments were taken extremely out of context.

FWIW, your biggest fear was surviving, but mine was what my family would have to deal with in the aftermath. Which is why a gun was never a consideration.

I feel like perhaps you don't feel comfortable with others stating their own opinions on some topics... Maybe I'm incorrect, but... I'm not going to NOT discuss a pertinent and on topic thought... We're dealing with uncomfortable subjects. You are not nearly the first person to throw out that suicidal people who are determined enough.... Whatever it was... I may have mentioned it because your post may or may not have spurred some thought, but it's a fair discussion. Please don't take my comments so personally.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

There are 5 cities in the US that require gun ownership. https://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/28/5-american-cities-that-require-you-to-own-a-gun/21439364/

Slightly O\T - but do you have a case law that says ' "liberty of doing something" implies its corollary "liberty of NOT doing something" '? Like, say, liberty of association implies liberty of NOT associating, or liberty of believing implies liberty of NOT believing, or liberty of having guns implies liberty of NOT having guns.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Does America have current standards now, or did Trump/Congress literally revoke a huge one earlier in 2017??

What's left standing, legally speaking? Anyone here know?


TRUMP OVERTURNS A MENTAL HEALTH REGULATION ON GUN PURCHASES

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237

Bumping question in case anyone can help me find answers. What’s the legal “baseline,” nationally, for reporting mental health issues that might impact gun ownership?

Are there any?