Gun Control Debate #4

[bears10]

I feel like perhaps you don't feel comfortable with others stating their own opinions on some topics... Maybe I'm incorrect, but... I'm not going to NOT discuss a pertinent and on topic thought... We're dealing with uncomfortable subjects. You are not nearly the first person to throw out that suicidal people who are determined enough.... Whatever it was... I may have mentioned it because your post may or may not have spurred some thought, but it's a fair discussion. Please don't take my comments so personally.

Lol. I’m very comfortable with people voicing their opinions, because that’s the whole point of a debate. How can I not take these comments personally when I’ve been told I need to do more research on suicide, or whatever that poster said... another poster literally calling me out today saying they are disgusted with my post(s), then add in all of the passive aggressive and straight up insensitive posts directed at me... yet I’m the one who is uncomfortable with others discussing their views.

 

[ohreally]

Slightly O\T - but do you have a case law that says ' "liberty of doing something" implies its corollary "liberty of NOT doing something" '? Like, say, liberty of association implies liberty of NOT associating, or liberty of believing implies liberty of NOT believing, or liberty of having guns implies liberty of NOT having guns.

Sorry, I am confused about what you are asking. I thought it was interesting that five cities have mandatory gun ownership. Nothing more.

 

[flourish]

Lol. I’m very comfortable with people voicing their opinions, because that’s the whole point of a debate. How can I not take these comments personally when I’ve been told I need to do more research on suicide, or whatever that poster said... another poster literally calling me out today saying they are disgusted with my post(s), then add in all of the passive aggressive and straight up insensitive posts directed at me... yet I’m the one who is uncomfortable with others discussing their views.

Oh was I that poster? No, I was not.
[emoji111]
It's not all about you. Anyone who doesn't want to read my posts knows how to scroll and roll and if they don't, I know Honey can teach them lol (just teasing ya Honey)

:silly:

:couch:

 

[bears10]

Oh was I that poster? No, I was not.
[emoji111]
It's not all about you. Anyone who doesn't want to read my posts knows how to scroll and roll and if they don't, I know Honey can teach them lol (just teasing ya Honey)

:silly:

:couch:

[emoji1303]

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Sorry, I am confused about what you are asking. I thought it was interesting that five cities have mandatory gun ownership. Nothing more.

And what about my liberty of NOT having guns? I pay my taxes, I recycle, I'm a general good citizen, but I VISCERALLY HATE GUNS. Who are you to force me to do something that is against my convictions, and possibly against my religion?

 

[bluesneakers]

I feel like perhaps you don't feel comfortable with others stating their own opinions on some topics... Maybe I'm incorrect, but... I'm not going to NOT discuss a pertinent and on topic thought... We're dealing with uncomfortable subjects. You are not nearly the first person to throw out that suicidal people who are determined enough.... Whatever it was... I may have mentioned it because your post may or may not have spurred some thought, but it's a fair discussion. Please don't take my comments so personally.

I hate the saying "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" because it's dismissive and for many people a mental illness is not a temporary problem, but the truth is for many people a suicide attempt is a one-time thing, and once they get past it they move on and don't ever make another attempt. IMO firearms suicides are as much of an issue as school shootings. However I realize the solutions are not the same for both. It's not like there's a one-size-fits-all gun control law that will address school shootings, mass shootings, suicides, and armed toddlers. But guns everywhere all the time for everyone isn't fixing any of those.

While guns are involved in just 5.6% of suicide attempts, they account for 55% of suicide fatalities.
...
"It's access to weaponry that turns desperate people into suicides," says psychiatrist Kenneth Duckworth, medical director for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, interviewed before McCready's death.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...h-highlights-role-of-guns-in-suicide/1927815/

 

[MaryG12]

There are 5 cities in the US that require gun ownership. https://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/28/5-american-cities-that-require-you-to-own-a-gun/21439364/

From the link:

1. Kennesaw, Georgia (pop. 33,627 (2016))
2. Nelson, Georgia (pop. 1,361 (2016))
3. Nucla, Colorado (pop. 710 (2016))
4. Gun Barrel City, Texas (pop. 1,361 (2016))
5. Virgin, Utah (pop. 608 (2016))

So Kennesaw has the highest population of the five, Virgin, UT and Nucla, CO have the smallest.

Interesting...

 

[bluesneakers]

And what about my liberty of NOT having guns? I pay my taxes, I recycle, I'm a general good citizen, but I VISCERALLY HATE GUNS. Who are you to force me to do something that is against my convictions, and possibly against my religion?

And if you're allowed to not own a firearm, everyone in town who is armed will know that you aren't. I wonder how safe the people who choose not to arm themselves feel in those cities.

 

[Jennifer17]

Gun Barrel City Texas is well named.

 

[MaryG12]

And if you're allowed to not own a firearm, everyone in town who is armed will know that you aren't. I wonder how safe the people who choose not to arm themselves feel in those cities.

I wonder if any of those five cities mandating gun ownership allow alternatives.

Such as a cast iron skillet.

 

[ohreally]

And what about my liberty of NOT having guns? I pay my taxes, I recycle, I'm a general good citizen, but I VISCERALLY HATE GUNS. Who are you to force me to do something that is against my convictions, and possibly against my religion?

I don't live in those cities, but my guess you would fall under the conscientious observer exemption.

 

[flourish]

I hate the saying "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" because it's dismissive and for many people a mental illness is not a temporary problem, but the truth is for many people a suicide attempt is a one-time thing, and once they get past it they move on and don't ever make another attempt. IMO firearms suicides are as much of an issue as school shootings. However I realize the solutions are not the same for both. It's not like there's a one-size-fits-all gun control law that will address school shootings, mass shootings, suicides, and armed toddlers. But guns everywhere all the time for everyone isn't fixing any of those.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...h-highlights-role-of-guns-in-suicide/1927815/

Ugh I so much hate that phrase, too. Like, oh yeah the grief of a murdered child is a "temporary problem?" Pain and agony from terminal (but not quick) illness is a "temporary problem?" Or when people talk about how "selfish" it is. I can't necessarily argue with that! However, has saying that EVER been helpful in the history of people? I doubt it!

While I'm ranting, it reminds me also of the "it could be worse," or worse (lol) "so and so have it worse." Because guess what? If we did some kind of insane research project putting a value to "worse," then really doesn't it come down to one person on Earth who is like, The Champion of Having it Bad? And what then? A big bruha and nobody but that person is ever allowed to complain again? Ugh whatever!




I feel like people who say that (permanent solution...) are usually referring to teenagers. I like the "it gets better" approach better...it seems less dismissive and judgemental.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

And if you're allowed to not own a firearm, everyone in town who is armed will know that you aren't. I wonder how safe the people who choose not to arm themselves feel in those cities.

Armed people in town are ---- 1) Cops; and 2) Bad Guys. Believe it or not, but in an urban landscape the survival rate is better for non armed people and their neighbors, because of cross fire and friendly fire and all that jazz.

 

[bluesneakers]

Armed people in town are ---- 1) Cops; and 2) Bad Guys. Believe it or not, but in an urban landscape the survival rate is better for non armed people and their neighbors, because of cross fire and friendly fire and all that jazz.

I would be too afraid to live in a town where everyone but me was armed.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

I would be too afraid to live in a town where everyone but me was armed.

My point is ------- around me, if someone is armed, s/he is 1) a cop or similar; 2) a cop or similar in civvies; 3) a terrorist.

Should something go wrong, my survival odds are decent.

 

[Jennifer17]

Where I live there certainly are bad guys with guns, but they have them for protection from or to intimidate other bad guys with guns. We have had a bit of a spike of drive by shootings (one death) over the last couple of months, but that is due to some drug territory disputes in Bikie gangs.

 

[bluesneakers]

Suicide Rate Correlations You May Not Have Known About

Firearm Prevalence

Many studies have shown that people who have died by suicide likely lived in homes with guns. But did you know that individuals who live in states with a high firearm prevalence have a higher risk for suicide as well? One study showed that the suicide rate for 40 million people living in the states with the highest firearm prevalence was almost twice as high as 40 million people living in the states with the lowest firearm prevalence.

This may seem like an obvious correlation to suicide as guns provide the means to complete the act. But in the same study, both the high-gun states and the low-gun states had the same amount of suicides occur from a method other than guns. Which means that access to guns were not the reason the suicide rate was higher in the gun-prone states.

Research conducted in another study: Guns and Suicide: Correlation or Causation*? similarly found that non-gun suicide rates are not significantly lower in places with more gun ownership even though the overall suicide rate is higher. This suggests that people living in high-gun states have higher suicidal tendencies.

Getting Serious About Reducing Suicide

For suicide in the United States, the most important modifiable risk factor is access to firearms.

Guns were used in 51% of completed suicides in 2013.4 The case-fatality rate for intentional self-injury with a gun is 84%; the average case-fatality rate for intentional self-injury using other means is 4%.

The next most lethal means of suicide are suffocation/hanging (69% fatal) and falls (31%), but these methods together account for fewer than half the number of suicides that guns claim each year.

Strong evidence supports the scientific consensus that access to firearms in the home is associated with a significantly increased suicide risk and that reducing gun access for people at risk will reduce suicide.

 

[bluesneakers]

My point is ------- around me, if someone is armed, s/he is 1) a cop or similar; 2) a cop or similar in civvies; 3) a terrorist.

Should something go wrong, my survival odds are decent.

But you don't live in one of those cities with mandatory gun ownership, right? My point was if you live in one of those towns and choose not to own/carry your neighbors will know. I would be afraid to be in that situation.

 

[rsd1200]

Now that I am home from work and done with supper:








Ah, thank you Rsd1200, I was hoping someone from Kennesaw or nearby would give some input.












OK, for example, Rexburg, ID, a city of 26,733, the 2014 report has the following:


Violent crime: 9
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter: 0


Please see attached image for complete details:

From: https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/


This link is a very handy tool, it lets you generate reports on any crime data you are seeking.

I didn't live there long. I think it was a heatwave when I was there. Lightening storms but no rain. Freaky. Usually someone, would host on the weekends, and we'd all have a few beers, and those who could play, would usually have a guitar handy. Everyone knew that most everyone carried something. It was just common. It's common here, but I'd not seen it as much here as I did there. I really didn't notice lots of folks getting conceal carrying, around here, til just the last 5-6 years. I only knew two folks around here who carried and they open carried pistols, in western leg holsters.

Just for kicks, I looked up two towns in my state that had similar populations to Kennesaw. One, Florence, is in Northern Kentucky, not far from Cincinnati and the other, Richmond, Ky., is in Eastern, KY, it is a college town.

 

[bluesneakers]

Gun injuries decrease 20% during NRA conferences, study finds

A new study has found that the number of firearm injuries in the US decreases dramatically during National Rifle Association conventions, casting doubt on the claim that most gun injuries are caused by inexperienced users.

Researchers from Harvard Medical School and Columbia University reviewed 10 years of data on emergency department visits and hospitalizations during the NRA’s convention dates, as well as the three weeks before and three weeks after. They found that firearm injuries decreased by an average of 20 per cent during NRA conventions.

:thinking: