Gun Control Debate #4

[Deleted member 39678]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ghost-guns-shooting-rancho-tehama-california/
This IMO is why people that legally own semi automatic weapons do not want to give up thier right to own one.
When they can be so easily made and untraceable if there is a law that takes them out of the hands of law abiding citizens the mass shootings will continue. The mass murderer will just make thier own.

Interesting article.

Ghost guns are increasingly turning up at crime scenes and being purchased from gang members and other criminals by undercover federal Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents. It is hard to say how many are circulating on the streets. In many cases, police departments don't even contact the ATF about the guns because they can't be traced.

Once again we see how criminals ignore gun control by finding ways to circumvent them.

Thanks for the link ohreally.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ghost-guns-shooting-rancho-tehama-california/

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I understand. However, drugs are illegal. Although some will still break the law and folks will die, they moved enough fentanyl of the streets recently to kill everyone in my county. I've seen a drop in Heroin overdoses. Will folks still get Heroin? Probably, but maybe they won't die now. Maybe they can survive, to get help.

Thanks for the reply. Not sure how it relates to me not wanting to help anyone kill innocent people but thanks.

 

[flourish]

Deputies: Man accidentally shot and killed himself while duck hunting in rural Sherwood

http://katu.com/news/local/1-injured-in-reported-accidental-shooting-in-sherwood

 

[flourish]

Washington County father accidentally shoots teenage son while deer hunting

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_67acd3e1-75de-5f74-bb7d-72db76a2a29d.html

 

[rsd1200]

Thanks for the reply. Not sure how it relates to me not wanting to help anyone kill innocent people but thanks.

I understand that you don't want to help anyone to kill others, but, we can still change things. It doesn't mean that what we do, will ever be perfect though. My example was kinda based on the War On Drugs. Not perfect by a long shot, but, we can still try things, w/ firearm changes, to see if they make a change. I apologize if I'm not coming across how I'm intending.

 

[flourish]

POLICE: HUNTER ACCIDENTALLY SHOOTS WOMAN WALKING DOGS IN NY FIELD

http://abc7ny.com/woman-walking-dogs-in-field-accidentally-shot-by-hunter/2691486/

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I understand that you don't want to help anyone to kill others, but, we can still change things. It doesn't mean that what we do, will ever be perfect though. My example was kinda based on the War On Drugs. Not perfect by a long shot, but, we can still try things, w/ firearm changes, to see if they make a change. I apologize if I'm not coming across how I'm intending.

Okay. I get what you mean now.

I'm also for change. Effective change that will limit gun violence while allowing people to exercise their Second Amendment rights. JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Kind of like people will obey gun control laws until they don't.

And like my chains and gate locks, keep honest folks honest, now. My horses getting out on the road, cost me through an insurance increase, not the person who was roaming on my property, marked, No Trespassing. It's now, also, marked w/a Beware o Dog sign. If they want in bad enough, they'll come in. One of the farms has been thieved blind.

 

[flourish]

Duck hunter accidentally shot by deer hunter in the town of Oconomowoc

https://www.jsonline.com/story/comm...y-shot-deer-hunter-town-oconomowoc/899230001/

 

[ohreally]

People find a way around anything if they want to do something bad enough, but, it's been proven that lessening the magazine number has been effective. I'd go as far as to not allow them to be made w/ a detachable magazine, and only w/a 10 limit on what the built in mag will hold. No popping spent ones in and out. They'd have to stop to reload. Can they make something at home? Yes. Is there a law against making bombs at home? Yes. Do folks still do it? Yes. Look at Columbine.

We have to meet /start somewhere though.

I agree with you lower capacity magazines. I may have missed it, but on these threads I do not remember anyone discussing thier right to have a massive load capacity. Lowering the capacity may be the place to start.
What was interesting to me about the article is how easy it was for anyone to make thier own semi automatic. I don't own a semi nor have a desire to own one. It does make me understand why law abiding semi automatic gun owners do not want to give theirs up. More so because of the second amendment. To me it gives criminals the upper hand.
I do agree we need to start somewhere, but taking away the rights of those that are following the law is not the place to start. We need those with a violent history rights taken away. We need felons that are caught with a gun given very long prison terms. We need parents that have broken the law by not securing thier weaon held accountable. At least in Florida it is a law to secure a weapon when there are children in the house. We need those with a long history of mental illness that has caused them to be violent to not be able to legally own a gun. IMO these all need to have thier gun rights taken away not the law abiding citizen.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I would say that killing multiple people is a crime. A very horrendous crime. JMO

They didn’t have extensive criminal HISTORIES in many of these cases.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Interesting article.

Once again we see how criminals ignore gun control by finding ways to circumvent them.

Thanks for the link ohreally.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ghost-guns-shooting-rancho-tehama-california/

So maybe we should do more as a country to track weapons?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

They didn’t have extensive criminal HISTORIES in many of these cases.

That's true. But the most important thing is that they are criminals now.

We need to look at preventing criminal use of guns and defending innocent people from harm when that fails. JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So maybe we should do more as a country to track weapons?

The point of the article about "ghost guns' is that it's impossible to track, or restrict, a gun that doesn't have a serial number from a manufacture.

 

[rsd1200]

I agree with you lower capacity magazines. I may have missed it, but on these threads I do not remember anyone discussing thier right to have a massive load capacity. Lowering the capacity may be the place to start.
What was interesting to me about the article is how easy it was for anyone to make thier own semi automatic. I don't own a semi nor have a desire to own one. It does make me understand why law abiding semi automatic gun owners do not want to give theirs up. More so because of the second amendment. To me it gives criminals the upper hand.
I do agree we need to start somewhere, but taking away the rights of those that are following the law is not the place to start. We need those with a violent history rights taken away. We need felons that are caught with a gun given very long prison terms. We need parents that have broken the law by not securing thier weaon held accountable. At least in Florida it is a law to secure a weapon when there are children in the house. We need those with a long history of mental illness that has caused them to be violent to not be able to legally own a gun. IMO these all need to have thier gun rights taken away not the law abiding citizen.

IF I've seen anyone not wanting any change at all, on this thread, I don't recall it. We have a semi. I've never even had a speeding ticket. My s/o has but neither of us has seen the inside of a jail. I got a loitering ticket at 16... I was loitering, alone, in my vehicle, while waiting for cars to pass (one of which was a town cop). :shame:

Back to the semis. I owned a semi handgun for years. It was nice. Didn't have to constantly reload while target shooting. However, it would jam now and then, and, it was a bit heavy for me. We had a .44 revolver. While a beauty, and a fun gun to shoot, not my thang, too jarring. Got rid of those. My personal firearm of choice is a .38 Special double-action revolver, w/a laser. Holds five rounds and is compact and very lightweight.

My spouse likes rifles. He has one, that is the typical semi, that is in the news now, only not an AR-15. The other one, pushes the bullet into the chamber, but only holds, I think, six rounds, one in the chamber, and five in the non-removable mag (iirc). So, he has to stop, and reload, like me, with my revolver. I like the non-removable mag idea with a low limit. 10 at most.

One can build a gun or bomb with items from the local hardware shops and a YouTube video. There's a YouTube video of a 12 y/o Iraqi kid who fixes firearms, w/his father, to help in the fight against ISIS.

Then there's this, but nothing will cover everything. It's not illegal either. Unless we want to live in a police state, we'll never stop everything.

The wooden and steel parts I need to build my untraceable AK-47 fit within a slender, 15-by-12-inch cardboard box.

The first guy to finish is all smiles, but he has a question: “Say some Johnny Law comes up who don’t know **** about this law, and I’ve got an AK without a serial number—then what?”


“There’s a series of laws that make this legal,” says one of the hosts. “Just print those up and have them with you in case Johnny Law does come by.”

http://https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/ak-47-semi-automatic-rifle-building-party/

 

[Karinna]

Might ya please include links/sources when making claims like this? TIA

Data I'm finding shows the claim is untrue. Statistically, it's dead even. Pun intentional. Per the CDC:

• Number of vehicle traffic deaths: 36,161 = 11.3 per 100,000
• Number of firearm deaths: 36,252 = 11.3 per 100,000

The false analogies — in general —are really kinda hilarious at this point. IMO

Why is it a false analogy? Here:

• A car's purpose isn't to kill things, yet killin' stuff is precisely the purpose of firearms.

• And far, far, far, far more people travel far more often and far greater distances by automobile each year than use a firearm, for any reason.​

See?

(quote)
Which kills more Americans, guns or cars?

Answer: Car accidents, but firearms deaths are catching up. In some states, guns do kill more people than cars—check out this map.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/gun-violence-car-deaths-charts/
(quote)
When Americans think about deaths from guns, we tend to focus on homicides. But the problem of gun suicide is inescapable: More than 60 percent of people in this country who die from guns die by suicide.

Suicide gets a lot less attention than murders for a few reasons. One big one is that news organizations generally don’t cover suicides the way they do murders. There’s evidence that news attention around suicide can lead to more suicides. Suicide is more stigmatized and less discussed than homicide.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Maybe I'm missing your point. Suicide is part and parcel of this discussion.

??

The assertion that there are "many more deaths" from automobiles than firearms is inaccurate.

Behold, the number I cited (of which I can't tell if you're arguing, or—?) includes suicides, because suicide is a form of firearm death. It's a form of gun violence.

• Number of vehicle traffic deaths: 36,161 = 11.3 per 100,000
• Number of firearm deaths: 36,252 = 11.3 per 100,000

It's the maths. That's why the comparison — based solely on death rate (which is dead-even, by the way, linked above) is a false equivalence. Cars aren't built for murder/homicide; guns are. Let's do this this discussion properly, shall we? I'm gonna. Who else wants to join? Everyone's invited.

"Motor vehicle deaths are on a steady decline nationwide, thanks to decades of applying proven public health-based injury prevention strategies to reduce death and injury. Meanwhile, gun deaths continue unabated. Guns remain the only consumer products not regulated for health and safety in the United States. (snip)
​

"Nine out of 10 American households have access to a motor vehicle while a little less than a third of American households contain a gun. To reduce the unacceptable toll of death and injury, firearms must be regulated for health and safety just as we regulate motor vehicles and all other consumer products."


​

Traffic safety regulations save lives. Automobile mortality has fallen 72 percent.

Let's do the same with firearms, yeah?

"Between 1966 and 2000, the combined efforts of government and advocacy organizations reduced the rate of death per 100,000 population by 43 percent, which represents a 72 percent decrease in deaths per vehicle miles traveled.4"
​

(quote)
Which kills more Americans, guns or cars?
Answer: Car accidents, but firearms deaths are catching up. In some states, guns do kill more people than cars—check out this map.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/gun-violence-car-deaths-charts/
(quote)
When Americans think about deaths from guns, we tend to focus on homicides. But the problem of gun suicide is inescapable: More than 60 percent of people in this country who die from guns die by suicide.
Suicide gets a lot less attention than murders for a few reasons. One big one is that news organizations generally don’t cover suicides the way they do murders. There’s evidence that news attention around suicide can lead to more suicides. Suicide is more stigmatized and less discussed than homicide.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html

 

[rsd1200]

That's true. But the most important thing is that they are criminals now.

We need to look at preventing criminal use of guns and defending innocent people from harm when that fails. JMO

This is why, earlier in the thread, I mentioned to offer the Parkland shooter, LWOP, on condition of participating in therapy. I'm anti DP, but, I think, that maybe, if we have professionals, talk to shooters who don't kill themselves, or get killed, that we may find out more about what led them there. Just as the Ten Lessons Learned, has found so many similarities, in shooters, and events surrounding them, before they became school shooters. What was it? What eventually ignited them? Get it first person if we can. I despised h.s. and ditched as often as possible. (Only reason I got my diploma is that my parents somehow found out. I even had a dup report card. The teachers never noticed that I wasn't there). Three-four years after graduating h.s., I decided to go back to school and advance my education.

My point, I could not see life past h.s., at that age/time, I just wanted out. I don't think these school shooters, are looking past the present. They don't see that life is much more than those four years. I think maybe they get to a point that they don't see/can't see, the light at the end of the tunnel. There is no light. Just armchair psychology from someone who despised h.s.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

323.1 million: America population (2016)

2015 United States homicides
36,252: fatal firearm incidents (including suicide)
22,018: homicide/completed suicide by firearm
17,793: homicide/murder victims (all methods)
12,979: assault homicide “by discharge of firearm”
489: unintentional firearm deaths (accidental)
282: undetermined cause of firearm death
484: legal intervention/war
(Source: Full U.S. report from the CDC – downloadable pdf)

Suicide rates, United States: longterm trends, per Statista:

• In the U.S., from 1950-2015, the average suicide rate is about 13.2 per 100,000 residents.

• “The state of Wyoming had the highest rate of suicide in the U.S.” in 2015 with 28.2 suicides per 100,000 residents. (Alaska: 26.8, and Montana: 25.3)

• In 2015 (most recent data available), “there were 21.1 male and 6 female deaths by suicide per 100,000 resident population in the United States.”

(bumpity bumpity!)

 

[Karinna]

Maybe I'm missing your point. Suicide is part and parcel of this discussion.

??

The assertion that there are "many more deaths" from automobiles than from gun violence is inaccurate.

Behold, the number I cited (of which I can't tell if you're arguing, or—?) includes suicides, because suicide is a form of homicide. It's a form of gun violence.

• Number of vehicle traffic deaths: 36,161 = 11.3 per 100,000
• Number of firearm deaths: 36,252 = 11.3 per 100,000

It's the maths. That's why the comparison — based solely on death rate (which is dead-even, by the way, linked above) is a false equivalence. Cars aren't built for murder/homicide; guns are. Let's do this have this discussion properly, shall we? I'm gonna. Who else wants to join? Everyone's invited.

"Motor vehicle deaths are on a steady decline nationwide, thanks to decades of applying proven public health-based injury prevention strategies to reduce death and injury. Meanwhile, gun deaths continue unabated. Guns remain the only consumer products not regulated for health and safety in the United States. (snip)
​

"Nine out of 10 American households have access to a motor vehicle while a little less than a third of American households contain a gun. To reduce the unacceptable toll of death and injury, firearms must be regulated for health and safety just as we regulate motor vehicles and all other consumer products."


​

Traffic safety regulations save lives. Automobile mortality has fallen 72 percent.

Let's do the same with firearms, yeah?

"Between 1966 and 2000, the combined efforts of government and advocacy organizations reduced the rate of death per 100,000 population by 43 percent, which represents a 72 percent decrease in deaths per vehicle miles traveled.4"
​

BBM, No, the title of the thread is "Gun Control Debate". I was interested in finding out what the actual stats. were overall in gun related deaths, and what all those deaths actually entailed? I appreciate your links on that, and anyone else that contributes the information too, so that we can get a clearer picture on all of it.