Head blow vs strangulation

BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

IOW, JonBenet had been posed after death, probably in an obscene slouched sitting position to gain maximum shock value. The livor mortis settling in the dorsal area supports this. John doesn't want to admit it, but enough info from him slipped out during the police interviews to suggest it is probably what happened.

For instance, when John allegedly found JonBenet in the basement he said she was wrapped papoose style:

MIKE KANE: "Do you remember, was her head exposed? Were her feet exposed?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Possibly."

MIKE KANE: "But not the rest of her?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean, yeah, I think her feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

Why was John trying to hold her head if she was lying flat on her back on the floor? It appears from his comment that she was not lying flat on the floor, but instead she was in a slouched sitting position. IMO he was trying to hold her head as he cut the cord so that the upper torso and head wouldn't fall over and hit the floor after the cord was cut.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab,

a criminal profiler (I can't remember his name right now) has pointed out that if a sexual predator had wanted to display the victim for shock value, he would have done this openly (e. g. in the living room) and not have removed her far away into a dark and windowless room.

Even if we go along with your theory, there would have been no reason for John to lie about how he found her.
Why should he cover up forensic evidence in case an alleged intruder had killed JB? If he found her at around 2 am in the in wine cellar, why wait for three hours before calling the police? Why wait unless he wasn't involved?

Who do you think killed JB? An intruder? If not, do you think a family member 'posed' JB's body in a shocking way?
 
BlueCrab:

In this thread you suggest that JB was exposed in a sexual manner by the perp. But in thread "The ransom note and staging" you suggest that the RN was written to disguise the sexual motive.

Doesn't these two ideas contradict eachother?
 
tumble said:
BlueCrab:

In this thread you suggest that JB was exposed in a sexual manner by the perp. But in thread "The ransom note and staging" you suggest that the RN was written to disguise the sexual motive.

Doesn't these two ideas contradict eachother?

tumble,



Whether JonBenet had been posed or not posed wouldn't change the purpose of the ransom note. The goal of the ransome note in either case would be to make the killing look like an intruder-kidnapper, and not a Ramsey, had killed JonBenet. Diverting attention from themselves is a criminal trait.

Posing the body after strangling her and bashing her in the head would be just one more fiendish part of the staging to convince the cops that it had to have been an intruder who did this terrible thing.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
tumble,

Posing the body after strangling her and bashing her in the head would be just one more fiendish part of the staging to convince the cops that it had to have been an intruder who did this terrible thing.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab,
but then, if the Ramseys allegedly 'posed' the body to convince the cops that it had to have been an intruder, why didn't they make sure that the police would see the posed body?
 
rashomon said:
BlueCrab,
but then, if the Ramseys allegedly 'posed' the body to convince the cops that it had to have been an intruder, why didn't they make sure that the police would see the posed body?

rashomon,

In this theory it wasn't the "Ramseys" who posed the body. It was the Ramseys who found the body posed and re-staged it in the papoose blanket to give JonBenet a measure of dignity before the cops arrived and took crime scene photos.

But why did John and Patsy, neither of whom killed JonBenet, get involved in this and other staging? IMO there was a fifth person in the house that night who had been let in by a Ramsey. To this day it is unknown whether it was that fifth person or the Ramsey who let the "intruder" into the house who is the killer. The Ramseys themselves don't even know and want it to remain that way.

This hypothesis is supported by the wording in the questions asked John and Patsy by examiner Gelb during the lie detector examinations. The questions were carefully crafted with input by Lin Wood to include the term "for sure" in them. Since the Ramseys knew only that a Ramsey was involved but didn't know "for sure" which one of the two suspects did the actual killing, they were able to pass the polygraph questions without showing deception.

BlueCrab
 
Nuisanceposter said:
The most absurd theories I've ever heard were the ones where the intruder wore Patsy's jacket to frame her and the one where Patsy let in Santa thinking it was a photo session for JB, then fell asleep while he let in a group of pedos with a rabbit who took turns molesting JB and strangling her off and on for over an hour until one of them broke out from the pack and got extra rough, causing her death...and then they forced Patsy to write the RN and keep their secret until her death - all without leaving any forensic evidence of being there at all.

Wow, O/T - that may be the longest run-on sentence I've written yet.
That theory is priceless indeed. And the poster who wrote it seems to be totally convinced that this is what happened. Why are some people so eager to fantasize about things which aren't there, instead of focusing on the things which are there?
 
If JR's shirt fibers were definitely found he shoud have been arrested.

[SuperDave]No argument!
Too bad the Ramseys' clothes were not collected on Dec 26, which should have been the SOP. By the time John finally handed in his shirt, the case had already taken the "rocky road to nowhere", like ST called it. Many investigative blunders, a spineless DA who actively hampered the investigation, Lou Smit who behaved like a defense attorney for the Ramseys, spinning his intruder fantasy - things had gone beyond repair.

How did the fibers found in her labia go from blue to black anyway. It was believed she was wiped down with a blue cloth, even thinkiing it may have been a blue bathrobe

[SD]Well, until rashomon decides to educate us, I'll step up to the plate and theorize that it's easy to mistake black and navy. Done it myself once or twice.
Dave, I myself would need someone to guide me through the fiber evidence, for it is quite confusing:
From the Bonita papers:

a white fiber was found on her chin; dark colored hairs were found on the shoulder area of the shirt; dark blue fibers were located on the back of the right shoulder of the shirt; hairs and other trace evidence were located on her shirt underneath both her left and right arms and on the lower part of her shirt; fibers and an eyelash were located on the front of her shirt. All these minuscule items were recovered and placed into evidence.

During the vaginal examination, small dark colored fibers were found on JonBenet’s external labia.
....
Dr. Meyer stated that it appeared that JonBenet’s pubic area may have been cleaned, or at least wiped by someone using a towel or piece of clothing. Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered
It seems that there were two types of fibers found on JB's genital area.

- small dark colored fibers on the external labia
- small dark blue fibers consistent with a cotton towel

I'm not quite sure, but I remember reading somewhere that the small dark colored fibers were the same as those which were found in the crotch area of JBs underwear.
All Levin is asking for is an innocent explanation of how JR's shirt fibers could be found in JonBenet's underwear, and JR has no answer - he replies by becoming indignant and questioning Levin's questions, and then Wood interjects. Why doesn't JR have any innocent explanation for why his shirts fibers are in his daughter's underwear and on her pubic area, after she was wiped down by the redresser? I'd have a less suspicion about JR's involvement had he been able to give some kind of explanation...instead he completely dodges the question and avoids answering by becoming outraged.
[SD]Has anyone heard the adage "a hit dog barks."
Oh, and how they both barked, John Ramsey and Lin Wood. That was priceless!
Ramsey went through the roof, accusing the investigators of trying to disgrace the relationship with his daughter, and Lin Wood instantly launched into a tirade, demanding that Team Ramsey be shown the evidence before deciding to reply to it. Are a suspect and his lawyer team (before charges have been filed) allowed to study the evidence ?
Lin Wood was nervous because he knew damaging fiber evidence can be, and Levin obviously had informed him that he was going to confront John with the fiber evidence against him.
 
rashomon said:
That theory is priceless indeed. And the poster who wrote it seems to be totally convinced that this is what happened. Why are some people so eager to fantasize about things which aren't there, instead of focusing on the things which are there?


rashomon,

Possibly for the same reason some people attribute JonBenet's death to a mysterious accident then lay the blame at Patsy's door.



.
 
rashomon said:
No one can 'force' EA on another person. In addition, the injuries inflicted to JB's genitals don't mesh with an EA scenario either.
And what is more, the double knot which was tied on JB' neck would exclude any EA scenario too, for a fixed knot makes any "breath control device" a technical impossibility.
In short, the EA theory is in no way backed up by the forensic evidence found at the crime scene.
Great post Rashomon. Great!!
 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

In this theory it wasn't the "Ramseys" who posed the body. It was the Ramseys who found the body posed and re-staged it in the papoose blanket to give JonBenet a measure of dignity before the cops arrived and took crime scene photos.

But why did John and Patsy, neither of whom killed JonBenet, get involved in this and other staging? IMO there was a fifth person in the house that night who had been let in by a Ramsey. To this day it is unknown whether it was that fifth person or the Ramsey who let the "intruder" into the house who is the killer. The Ramseys themselves don't even know and want it to remain that way.

This hypothesis is supported by the wording in the questions asked John and Patsy by examiner Gelb during the lie detector examinations. The questions were carefully crafted with input by Lin Wood to include the term "for sure" in them. Since the Ramseys knew only that a Ramsey was involved but didn't know "for sure" which one of the two suspects did the actual killing, they were able to pass the polygraph questions without showing deception.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab,

Berke was allowed to leave the house the morning of the 26th by his parents. He was 10 at the time. As another poster said, I doubt his parents would have let him leave if there were any possibility that he were involved, or any of his friends.

And by the way, it took Patsy three tries to get this right in a polygraph and those are just the ones we know about.
 
rashomon said:
No one can 'force' EA on another person. In addition, the injuries inflicted to JB's genitals don't mesh with an EA scenario either.
And what is more, the double knot which was tied on JB' neck would exclude any EA scenario too, for a fixed knot makes any "breath control device" a technical impossibility.
In short, the EA theory is in no way backed up by the forensic evidence found at the crime scene.


rashomon,

I respectfully disagree with everything you typed in your above post.

A sadist sexual deviant can force anything he wants onto a little 45-pound girl who has been put into bondage.

The internal injuries to JonBenet's vagina do not disqualify the possibility of the injuries being inflicted during EA. There are no specific injuries to look for in the vagina to identify EA. The most important clue to look for to identify the possibility of a victim accidentally dying from EA is circumferential abrasions on the neck.

The EA device did not employ a fixed knot. After the EA session was terminated the ligature on JonBenet's neck was forcefully pulled so tight that it collapsed the "Lasso" appearance of the EA device and imbedded the cord deep into the skin of her neck.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

I respectfully disagree with everything you typed in your above post.

A sadist sexual deviant can force anything he wants onto a little 45-pound girl who has been put into bondage.

The internal injuries to JonBenet's vagina do not disqualify the possibility of the injuries being inflicted during EA. There are no specific injuries to look for in the vagina to identify EA. The most important clue to look for to identify the possibility of a victim accidentally dying from EA is circumferential abrasions on the neck.

The EA device did not employ a fixed knot. After the EA session was terminated the ligature on JonBenet's neck was forcefully pulled so tight that it collapsed the "Lasso" appearance of the EA device and imbedded the cord deep into the skin of her neck.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab,
I think you are confusing EA with a sexual predator scenario.
Of course a sexual predator can force many things on a victim, but EA is not one of them. For the 'goal' of EA is primarily the sexual pleasure of the person who is being asphyxiated, therefore EA can only be practised on someone else with the willing consent of that person, who participates in it for his/her own sexual arousal purposes.
Without the consent of the person who is being asphyxiated, you merely have a 'BTK strangler' type of scenario, where a sadistic perp derives pleasure from torturing his terrified victim. But this is something else than EA.
 
rashomon said:
BlueCrab,
I think you are confusing EA with a sexual predator scenario.
Of course a sexual predator can force many things on a victim, but EA is not one of them. For the 'goal' of EA is primarily the sexual pleasure of the person who is being asphyxiated, therefore EA can only be practised on someone else with the willing consent of that person, who participates in it for his/her own sexual arousal purposes.
Without the consent of the person who is being asphyxiated, you merely have a 'BTK strangler' type of scenario, where a sadistic perp derives pleasure from torturing his terrified victim. But this is something else than EA.


rashomon,

IMO the cord device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was for EA purposes. It obviously wasn't designed to be a garrote because it was much too elaborate for that. Any simple length of cord or wire, without knots, nor handles, nor ligatures, etc. will suffice for a garrote.

I don't think JonBenet participated willingly in the EA session. The evidence of her being in bondage and likely being stungunned puts the perp into the category of a sexual sadist or a young person experimenting with things he didn't know much about.

BlueCrab
 
UKGuy said:
Toltec,

So do you reckon her assailant decided to make sure she was dead, and proceeded to strangle her?


.

Well UK, I reckon I could say that but I don't know if the killer thought JonBenet was already dead. What I do know is that she had a cord tied around her neck while she was unconcious....and that sealed her fate.

The blow to JonBenet's head caused her neck to swell and when the cord was tied around her neck, the cord became embedded.

A strangulation? I doubt it. Patsy places the cord around JonBenets neck, ties the cord in almost a perfect circumference. No broken bones no broken hyoid....staging.
 
Okay, I've read your theory and if you could explain this to me....

Does a person who performs EA place their fingers or something foreign on the victim also?

Doesn't EA or AEA involve masturbation only?
 
Toltec said:
Well UK, I reckon I could say that but I don't know if the killer thought JonBenet was already dead. What I do know is that she had a cord tied around her neck while she was unconcious....and that sealed her fate.

The blow to JonBenet's head caused her neck to swell and when the cord was tied around her neck, the cord became embedded.

A strangulation? I doubt it. Patsy places the cord around JonBenets neck, ties the cord in almost a perfect circumference. No broken bones no broken hyoid....staging.

Toltec,

I agree, without the autopsy photographs it would be difficult to decide, but these and the details in the autopsy report confirm each other.

Either Coroner Meyer is deliberately ambiguous in his autopsy report or he considers one of two things occurred 1. JonBenet was ligature strangled at an earlier point using the ligature discovered on her neck, or 2. Some other ligature was used at an earlier point?

note in the autopsy report:
CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.
he does not state asphyxia by ligature strangulation which may just be a moot point.

Also there are no marks on the back of her neck, other than the circumferential furrow, but there are what appears fabric compression abrasions on the front of her neck, beneath the furrow, which given the diameter of the ligature cord, most likely did not originate from it?

Also since a piece of the paintbrush handle is still missing, and birefringent foreign material was recovered internally from JonBenet, was it part of the staging to leave the remaining piece of the handle inside JonBenet, and has this been redacted from the autopsy report?



.
 
UKGuy said:
Also there are no marks on the back of her neck, other than the circumferential furrow, but there are what appears fabric compression abrasions on the front of her neck, beneath the furrow, which given the diameter of the ligature cord, most likely did not originate from it?


UKGuy,

Fabric compression abrasions? That's interesting.

As you likely know, when erotic asphyxiation is being used in sex, the cord ligature around the neck (if cord is being used) is almost always padded for comfort and to prevent telltale circumferential abrasions being created on the neck.

Typical padding would include such things as a towel, or a scarf, or any article of clothing.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
UKGuy,

Fabric compression abrasions? That's interesting.

As you likely know, when erotic asphyxiation is being used in sex, the cord ligature around the neck (if cord is being used) is almost always padded for comfort and to prevent telltale circumferential abrasions being created on the neck.

Typical padding would include such things as a towel, or a scarf, or any article of clothing.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Sure I agree, this is why, with some exceptions, your BDI is mainly consistent with the forensic evidence.

Those markings on the front of her neck would have been recognized by Coroner Meyer as fabric compression abrasions, they are most prevalent in asphyxiation where the victim is held by the collar or some other garment.

These markings have always made me suspect JonBenet was manually strangled, but as ever its open to amendment.

Also I think the Autopsy Report was released with a minimal amount of information, with possibly some redactions, although its conclusions may be sound, you can see something is missing.

I seriously doubt JonBenet was ever asphyxiated by Ligature strangulation as suggested in the Autopsy Report, I reckon Coroner Meyer was playing the staging game?

Also from Steve Thomas' book Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation

Where he relates Detective Harmer presenting an anatomy lesson on vaginas ...

Harmer cites the experts who said there was evidence of 'chronic sexual abuse,' although the detectives referred to it only as 'prior vaginal trauma'

... Followed by ...
Then we presented information on the paintbrush, the handle for the garrote, the paint tray, and the matching paint on the handle and the broken brush. The splinter in the vagina had caused a disagreement among the examiners. Some examiners said it had been in the vagina as long as a week, but detectives sided with Dr Spitz's conclusion that it was inserted about the same time of death as part of the staging.

So Steve Thomas reckons it is a splinter of wood, that is was in the vagina and that it had been inserted.

Now we can all assume that the recovered parts of the paintbrush handle would have been forensically examined, of this there is no record in his book.

If any of the recovered parts had been inserted inside JonBenet then some residue would have been left on the part, including possibly some blood? Again of this no mention.

So how does Steve Thomas know the splinter was inserted, and was not the result of an accidental transfer either during a sexual assault, or from a digital penetration which Coroner Meyer opines took place?


So from where does Steve Thomas acquire enough knowledge to assert splinter, inserted, and in the vagina ?

Was the missing piece of paintbrush handle recovered from inside JonBenet, and this detail was later redacted from the Autopsy Report?


.

.
 
How did the fibers found in her labia go from blue to black anyway. It was believed she was wiped down with a blue cloth, even thinkiing it may have been a blue bathrobe
QUOTE
From the Bonita papers:
During the vaginal examination, small dark colored fibers were found on JonBenet’s external labia.
....
Dr. Meyer stated that it appeared that JonBenet’s pubic area may have been cleaned, or at least wiped by someone using a towel or piece of clothing. Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area.
MR. LEVIN: I understand your
9 position.
10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.
John Ramsey's shirt was made of black wool, and fibers from this shirt were found on JB's external labia and in the crotch area of her underpants.
In addition, her pubic area appered to have been wiped by a navy-blue cloth consistent with a cotton towel.

It was written in a newspaper article about the search warrants that the blue cotton fibers might have come from John Ramsey's bathrobe. Does anyone remember if lawyer Levin asked John about this?
 
UKGuy said:
rashomon,
Possibly for the same reason some people attribute JonBenet's death to a mysterious accident then lay the blame at Patsy's door.
I believe it was neither an accident not a first-degre murder, but manslaughter (a rage attack) followed by a cover-up.
Rage attack does not have to mean that toilet issues were the reason for it.
The forensic evidence implicates Patsy as the main stager of the scene: fibers from her jacket were found in the garrote, on the duct tape, and in the paint tray - in locations associated with JB's death.
In all probability she wrote the ransom note.
If John killed JB because he wanted to prevent her from spilling the beans, then why did Patsy stage the scene?
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
169
Guests online
772
Total visitors
941

Forum statistics

Threads
626,126
Messages
18,521,006
Members
240,940
Latest member
NTGUILTY
Back
Top